86 réponses à ce sujet

[Riot Inducer]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Jowan didn't learn it from demons, he learned it from a book.

Exactly, I'm pretty sure he even says that he learned it from sneaking into off-limits areas of the library at one point. Demons taught it originally yes but it's been around long enough that there are plenty of tomes written about it, not to mention any Tevinter mage could teach you. 

And it's the sacrificial bits of blood magic/mind control bits that are viewed as evil, killing off others to fuel your rituals is bad juju, very rarely to blood mages have willing sacrifices (one of the reasons I feel using Jowan's ritual in Redcliffe isn't that bad, Isolde is perfectly willing).
As for the Mind control, that's a bit iffy, yeah the whole "serve man not rule over him" bit but when you have spells like sleep and horror flying around, is outright mind control that huge of a leap? Waking nightmare literally drives the affected targets insane, you don't directly control them but more often than not they'll end up indirectly fighting for you.

Just saying it's a bit like prohibiting the use of bio-weapons but still allowing the use of chemical weapons. They're both really horrible but one is arbitrarily ok to use. <_<

[druidofwarp]

Riot Inducer wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Jowan didn't learn it from demons, he learned it from a book.

Exactly, I'm pretty sure he even says that he learned it from sneaking into off-limits areas of the library at one point. Demons taught it originally yes but it's been around long enough that there are plenty of tomes written about it, not to mention any Tevinter mage could teach you. 

And it's the sacrificial bits of blood magic/mind control bits that are viewed as evil, killing off others to fuel your rituals is bad juju, very rarely to blood mages have willing sacrifices (one of the reasons I feel using Jowan's ritual in Redcliffe isn't that bad, Isolde is perfectly willing).
As for the Mind control, that's a bit iffy, yeah the whole "serve man not rule over him" bit but when you have spells like sleep and horror flying around, is outright mind control that huge of a leap? Waking nightmare literally drives the affected targets insane, you don't directly control them but more often than not they'll end up indirectly fighting for you.

Just saying it's a bit like prohibiting the use of bio-weapons but still allowing the use of chemical weapons. They're both really horrible but one is arbitrarily ok to use. <_<

Lol i think a circle tevinter mage wouldn't know anything about blood magic since the tevinters are also andrastian, but they do somethings differently there and the codex may prove me wrong since my dealing with the tevinters is pretty much reduced to the ailenage quest.

I feel the sacrificial and blood bits give it the negative attitude it has, but the raw power and thus danger of people using it is why it is banned. Waking nightmare does come a bit close but you are not forcing anyone to do anything, in fact its really just a magical optical illusion if they are fooled that is their fault; they are still performing all the actions of their own volition whereas blood magic forces them to do things.

Its more like saying trickery and deception are ok ways to get people to work for you in today's society but putting a gun to their head and making them do stuff is not ok

[Time4Tiddy]

Riot Inducer wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Jowan didn't learn it from demons, he learned it from a book.

Exactly, I'm pretty sure he even says that he learned it from sneaking into off-limits areas of the library at one point. Demons taught it originally yes but it's been around long enough that there are plenty of tomes written about it, not to mention any Tevinter mage could teach you. 

Actually, IIRC, in the mage origins you find an empty bookshelf in the library, and then later a stack of books about Blood Magic in Irving's office.  He says he's removed them because the templars felt it was too easy for apprentices to gain forbidden knowledge.  Clearly this is meant to be how Jowan learned.  I always felt he got most of his power through direct experimentation anyway, whereas your character learns by diabolic bargain.

I actually think the mages themselves are quite a bit more "on the fence" about blood mages.  There are several mage collective quests where it's highly possible the poster is a blood mage.  For example, when you have to prevent the adventuring party from reporting a blood mage to the chantry, or when you warn the families of suspected blood mages.  Even Irving at the beginning who says he would have handled Jowan different if they templars weren't involved, suggests a slightly more tolerant attitude.  The is a difference between a blood mage and a maleficar, just often the two tend to coincide.

For my own playthrough, I found that a Blood Mage/Spirit Healer was quite a healing powerhouse.  I pumped up my constitution and then kept my entire party stocked in heals, group heals, and lifewards using my own health.  I'd hardly call that evil.  Even when I did drain health from a non-aggroed party member, it was immediately following by a Group Heal that gave them back more than I had taken.  I'd hardly think someone like Sten or Oghren would complain that I take 40 hp from them and turn it into +150 for the entire party.  Never once did I accidentally kill another party member as is warned in the spell description.

[Time4Tiddy]

Oh and one last note with SPOILER warning. While playing the game, I felt that postponing Connor's possession was a fair trade for gaining enough power to stop the Blight. I didn't reload as I felt I needed to live with the consequences of becoming a Blood Mage. My assumption had been, if they pack him off to the Circle, hopefully he can learn enough to defend himself or renegotiate his bargain when Desire returns. Failing that, the Circle templars would kill him if he became an abomination again, which isn't far from what could easily have happened during the game. However, with all that said, I felt terrible guilt when I got to the endgame and learned of Connor's fate as a result of my decision. How awful for his family after all they went through.

[kormesios]

The Uldred backstory (as told by Niall in the fade) makes it clear that demonology and blood magic are two different things.  Uldred didn't "just" know blood magic, he "must have also" consorted with demons is the rough phrasing.

I also think it's important that the ability to control undead is a 'natural' result of studying accepted paths, not different in type than other frightening but useful .  It might be viewed less tolerantly if it were a whole other path, like shapeshifting.

But the best reasons are:

Maria Caliban wrote...
Blood magic is considered bad for a number of reasons -
1) Because you can control another's mind with it: If you raise a bunch of undead and attack a town, people will notice. A blood mage could control the King and no one would know.

2) Because there is no limit to blood magic: Regular magic is limited by a mage's natural mana pool and their ability to get lyrium potions, a rare commodity. Blood mages can simply kill people to increase their power.

3) The Imperium managed to conquer Thedas with their blood magic: Not necromancy or primal spells. Blood magic.

Especially one and three, both of which tie into Andraste's directive of magic serving man, not ruling over him.

[Dark83]

It's mainly the mind control. Note that not everybody who does Blood Magic can or will do it. However, it's kind of like a nuke. Not every nation who has it will use it, but those who strive for a nuclear weapon generally are seen as having bad intentions. (North Korea? Iran?) Simliarly, anyone studying Blood Magic is seen as suspect - because of their motives in studying it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

blazin130791 wrote...

let's not forget the joining ritual could be counted as blood magic.

No. Drinking blood is not blood magic.
Not everything that has to do with blood is blood magic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Angry One wrote...

As for Entropy, not only do you raise the dead, you can affect other's minds with it. The whole sleep/nightmare spell line specifically messes with people's minds and drives them insane by subjecting them to mental horror. Apparently that's okay with the Chantry though. Then again after hearing those chanting bozos in the Lothering Chantry I can see they know all about mental horror.

Turns out the Chantry is full of hypocrisy and lies. Surprise?

Strangly enough, I've yet to see any Circle mage in-game use any of those spells. Tehy' re big in healing, glyphs and elemental damage. Seems liek they avoid more "evilish" spells.

Also, odn't diss Gregoir. He's da man.
He's more man than Teagan, Sten, Duncan and his beard combined.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:16 .

[Paragon-King]

With Blood Magic you can make awesome cookies! Irresistible even!

[JackDresden]

Faithfully Deviant wrote...

I would like to know why Bloodmagic is so "EVIL!!!!" while you are given the option from the start to practice necromancy, starting with turning dead bodies in for magic to actually raising a skeleton. I mean really, at least with Bloodmagic you're only hurting yourself.
You would think that the Chantry would be more opposed to the raising of the dead than people stabbing themselves.
Also lets note how the draining of another personan's health is also not that bad.

Well blood magic can rob people of their free will and inslave them, it's also taught by demons and of course you can steal other peoples blood for blood magic too.

Raising a corpse to server you, well it depends on your view, a corpse is after all a discarded shell, it's no longer the person it was.

[bobsmyuncle]

Baalzie wrote...

#1 Nor re-rebuttal You are correct, someone didn't quite get the difference between "Teaching man bloodmagic" and "teaching any man nowadays bloodmagic"

#2 Re-Rebuttal: YES in DA:O Just not BY YOU! But it's stated everywhere how exact this mindcontrol is, not at ALL rudimentary... Just as shapeshifters CAN become dragons, YOU? A spider....  Don't say it isn't true because YOU can't do it...

#3 Re-rebuttal: Well more or less the same, YOU can't but others definitely can... And DOES it too inside the tower for instance, and the Tevinter mage offers it INGAME, so yes in DA:O But not YOU!

#1 - IIRC, according to the codex, Tevinter magi learned blood magic from the old gods (dragons) not demons. Maybe it won't change your opinion but let's be accurate as much as possible.

#2 - Greagoir in the mage origin can tell by looking at Lily that she is in control of herself. Look at Teagan when Connor is controlling him. It looks like Teagan and sounds like Teagan, but it is clearly not Teagan in there. In fact, his response after you knock some sense into him is "I'm in control again." If a blood mage wanted to fool us into believing it was still the person we knew, he'd have to do a very good job of recreating how that person behaved. This in addition to the spell description of the control spell in the blood magic line leads me to believe that blood magic can control a person's body but not his mind.

#3 - The obvious argument to this is that a sword isn't evil. Because other mages keep slaves to fuel their spells doesn't mean I or others would. Other mages could also use fire spells to slowly torture a person to death, or ice magic to keep macabre human statues in their garden. I don't think this means you should outlaw elemental magic, I think it means you should come down on abusive mages like a ton of bricks.

[druidofwarp]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Baalzie wrote...

#1 Nor re-rebuttal You are correct, someone didn't quite get the difference between "Teaching man bloodmagic" and "teaching any man nowadays bloodmagic"

#2 Re-Rebuttal: YES in DA:O Just not BY YOU! But it's stated everywhere how exact this mindcontrol is, not at ALL rudimentary... Just as shapeshifters CAN become dragons, YOU? A spider....  Don't say it isn't true because YOU can't do it...

#3 Re-rebuttal: Well more or less the same, YOU can't but others definitely can... And DOES it too inside the tower for instance, and the Tevinter mage offers it INGAME, so yes in DA:O But not YOU!

#1 - IIRC, according to the codex, Tevinter magi learned blood magic from the old gods (dragons) not demons. Maybe it won't change your opinion but let's be accurate as much as possible.

#2 - Greagoir in the mage origin can tell by looking at Lily that she is in control of herself. Look at Teagan when Connor is controlling him. It looks like Teagan and sounds like Teagan, but it is clearly not Teagan in there. In fact, his response after you knock some sense into him is "I'm in control again." If a blood mage wanted to fool us into believing it was still the person we knew, he'd have to do a very good job of recreating how that person behaved. This in addition to the spell description of the control spell in the blood magic line leads me to believe that blood magic can control a person's body but not his mind.

#3 - The obvious argument to this is that a sword isn't evil. Because other mages keep slaves to fuel their spells doesn't mean I or others would. Other mages could also use fire spells to slowly torture a person to death, or ice magic to keep macabre human statues in their garden. I don't think this means you should outlaw elemental magic, I think it means you should come down on abusive mages like a ton of bricks.

1. All magic is said to be learned from the Old Gods according to the Chant, blood magic specifically by demons it actually says that in the specialization and the Reaver spec to i believe

2.Greagoir could be wrong I suppose(not a great argument but i'm trying:lol:). but keep in mind that we dont actually know the full extent of blood magic maybe they can do an even better job at fooling us if they were more powerful. Perhaps that Demon cared little if you knew that Teagan was being controlled since he was using him as a plaything.

3. True they should. The logic perhaps runs similarly to gun control laws or more specifically to automatic weapon control laws. You can keep and use normal guns(magic), but even though you may never do any bad things with your automatic rifle(Blood Wound spell), the harm someone else could cause with it makes it not worth letting anyone have.

Disagree with number three if you want to, but accept that the extent of what is acceptable in society is defined by what the people are willing to put up with. Theodisans are not willing to put up with Blood Magic for a variety of very valid reasons that have been stated throughout this thread.