26 réponses à ce sujet

[Toki]

So I'm playing as a Rogue Hawke my stats are:

Level 11

10 Strength
26 Dexterity
10 Magic
30 Cunning
12 Willpower
15 Constitution

The Black Sheep's Visor (Helmet)
Caster's Skeleton Gloves (Gauntlets)
Last Descent Armor (Armour)
Simon's Lament (Boots)

My abilities are:

Summon Mabari, Unforgiving Chain, Backstab (Dual Weapon); Miasmic Flask (Sabotage); Blindside (Scoundrel); Stealth, Evade [with stun upgrade], Subtlety (Subterfuge); Pinpoint Precision, Decoy, Inconspicuous, and Disorienting Criticals (Shadow). If that helps at all.

It's clear that I'm focusing on backstabs and stealth, and avoid any direct conflict with any enemies. My party members usually consist of Aveline, Anders, and Varric/Fenris.

I have Aveline as the obvious tank, as well as Anders as the healer. I've been using Fenris and testing out Varric with me in the Deep Raods as some more offensive backbone. If you guys would like their stats and abilities I'll provide them as well. 

First time playing Nightmare and I'm either breezing through battles or getting absolutely stuck on little things and it's sort of agitating. The Dragon in the Deep Roads took me three tries to beat, and the Golem accompanied by never-ending Shades is where I am now. It wouldn't be bad if they stopped spawning, but I can't take down the Golen fast enough and the Shades do too much damage when surrounding you.

Any help is welcome whether it be just helping me pick the right companions or strategies, and I'll happily provide any information that you need to help me out. 

[wowpwnslol]

Poor spec. Not enough DPS. Your only damage special is backstab, which isn't all that great. You need twin fangs and explosive strike. Evade, Blindside and Miasmic flask are not useful at lower levels. I'd get blindside later on, but Miasmic flask sucks and so does Evade. With Mabari hound and decoy and stealth you should not have any problems if you don't rush into every fight and play a bit conservatively.

[Toki]

Hm, I see. I start off with Miasmic Flask so I make due with that, but I'm sure I selected Evade. I'll start upgrading the two-handed tree, then, thank you. Any suggestions for party members?

[frustratemyself]

Have a look at the following guides, good info in both to get ideas from.

Suicidalbaby's tactics: how do they work?
Arelex's DW rogue guide

[SuicidalBaby]

at 11 after respec you should look something like:

1. Unforgiving Chain
2. Backstab
3. Explosive Strike
4. Merciless Strike
5. Twin Fangs
6. Reversed Grip
7. Assassin - Mark of Death
8. Back-to-Back
9. Blindside
10. Invisible Friend
11. Precision

30 cunning minimum
21 dex minimum

Before you leave the Deep Roads you need 40 cunning.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:13 .

[Linkforlife]

I would highly advise against using Fenris due to his ability to possibly 1 shot Hawke, if you have Anders cast elemental spells for some additional damage, be sure to give Hawke/Aveline the appropriate resistance runes to avoid dying.

[frustratemyself]

Linkforlife wrote...

I would highly advise against using Fenris due to his ability to possibly 1 shot Hawke...

Or your whole party <_<

[SuicidalBaby]

Fenris :
Be Aware: He can wipe the whole party with just one Cleave boosted ability.

Synopsis:
For the most part, this set up allows Fenris to play hands free for general killing. When it comes to bosses or specific encounters, and combat tactics, it would be best to take control. i.e. clogging doorways and avoiding dragon slashes/fire breathing. I had no real issue just letting him roam around, at a slower pace than if I took control of him, attacking what he wished and peeling attackers off Anders and Hawke. The use of BRITTLE as a control feature works very well. Desiccate or Winter's Blast any target you want him to go after and off he goes with a Shattering Blow soon after. Damage and efficiency suffer in this build, but so does his ability to kill your team. It's still effective when it needs to be, applying STAGGER and pretty much tearing up elite and lower targets.

Attributes :
60% str 40% con (25 con minimum from Act 2 on), willpower +175 stamina before lvl 19.
note: 30 str before Deep Roads


Build :

1: Pommel Strike (default)
2: Mighty Blow
3: Control
4: Sunder (CCC asap)
5: Might + Bolster by using Maker's Sigh potion, replacing Pommel Strike
6: Cleave + Rally using Elixir of Physical Technique (Black Emporium)
7: Destroyer
8: Lyrium Ghost
9: Veneer of Calm
10: Claymore
11: Shattering Blow
12: Taunt**
13: Lyrium Spectre
Act 1 Ends

14: Massacre
15: Deflect
16: Battle Tempo
17: Inner Reserves
18: Killer Blow
19: Bravery
20: Bellow
21: Bravura
+22: all you

**1 taunt on Rock Wraith will keep him after Fenris the entire time.
w/o this you will lack control of the boss before the first energy burst.

Tactics :

self: hp <10% : use Health Poultice
enemy: status: BRITTLE: Mighty Blow
ally: mana/stamina <25%: Rally
enemy: target at short range: Cleave
self: surrounded by 3 enemies: Taunt
self: surrounded by 3 enemies: activate: Lyrium Ghost
self: stamina <50%: activate: Bravery
self: stamina <25%: Bolster
enemy: attacking Anders: Attack
enemy: attacking Hawke: Attack
self: at least 1 enemy is alive: skip tactics
self: any: deactivate: Bravery
self: any: deactivate: Lyrium Ghost

From my compendium. Damn good hands free build for Fenris in a Brittle/Stagger build for the group. I would probably go Pommel Strike/Blow instead of Bravery at this point because of the changes to Sunder.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:42 .

[Toki]

Ah, okay. Thank you very much SuicidalBaby; but what item do you use to respec? I last played this game over a year ago, so I don't remember very well.

So I will set up Fenris accordingly, and I should be good controlling myself, Anders, and Aveline. Anders and Aveline are very straightforward in their roles and I'll be controlling myself for most of the time.

So you all think I should focus allot more on DPS and focus less on my other talent trees? After I find a way to respec, I'll give myself some Explosive Strike, twin fangs, ect. with a Decoy and the like, just focus more on DPS?

[mr_afk]

You respec with the Maker's Sigh. It's a potion you buy in the black emporium.


I think rather than dps, what 'wowpwnlol' seems to be suggesting is getting more spike damage.

Your dps should be pretty reasonable atm, assuming you're constantly attacking rather than hiding around in stealth.
That said, you could increase your dps by:
- Putting more points into dex for ~100% crit chance and more base damage (no real need for con, and cun can be pumped later on unless you need to pick locks)
- Getting lacerate to double damage dealt to staggered enemies
- Getting either the precision/speed sustain from the specialist tree
- Becoming obscured to get the +50% crit damage from disorienting criticals (either by shadow veil+stealth/decoy or fatiguing fog/chameleons breath)
- Party buffs (haste (dual when possible), heroic aura, rally+might)
- Using decent weapons (high base damage/modifers, elemental weaknesses etc)

With enough dps, your autoattacks alone will be enough to take out most enemies rather fast, and the game becomes a bit of a breeze, even solo.


Elite enemies are a bit tougher and also can dish out more damage (e.g. assassins/rage demons) or buff surrounding enemies. Spike damage is useful to remove these enemies before they can do too much damage. A DW rogue hawke has some of the largest spike damage abilities (explosive strike, twin fangs, assassinate, vendetta), so investing in those and using it on dangerous enemies will allow you to increase the survivability of your party.

I would keep the decoy and stealth to become obscured with shadow veil and for threat management - but evade is relatively terrible so you probably don't need that. Decoy and stealth drops all hawke's threat, redirecting it to the decoy/dog/tank, allowing you to deal some unopposed damage and get the blindside bonus.

Modifié par mr_afk, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .

[Toki]

So I just did a respec and I have two abilities left over. I haven't used them yet just in case there's two more in mind I should focus on. I have done the stats and abilities that you have given me, SuicidalBaby, unless there's two more recommended that I should do.

[mr_afk]

I personally would use a shadow build for early game, since it offers more damage than assassin and a lot more survivability and CCC setups.

1. Backstab – Decent early game spike damage. Reasonably good for repositioning (e.g. dodging dragons/getting flanking bonuses) and a necessary prerequisite for bigger better things.
2. Precision – Early game your attack ratings suck, causing your dps to suffer. You can’t really afford that, so precision will give that useful boost to attack and critical chance to get you through. Respec into speed when you have adequate critical chance/attack.
3. Unforgiving Chain – This provides a large boost to critical chance, which is especially helpful considering the extent you rely on auto-attacks early game.
4. Explosive strike – To get some spike damage in the mix. Make sure it’s fully charged to get the most out of it.
5. Stealth – Threat redirection (to get enemies to attack the dog)
6. Lacerate – Effectively a 10% increase in dps (and a small chance to double spike damage). Not quite as amazing without staggers.
7. Twin Fangs – Your second bit of spike damage.
8. SHADOW: Pinpoint Precision – Never say no to +50% critical damage.
9. Inconspicuous – Semi-useful threat redirection when stealth isn’t available
10. Decoy – The ability that allows solo DW builds. You don’t get much better than this.
11. Disorientating Criticals – Another extra +50% critical damage? Yes please.
12. Shadow Veil – Gets your disorienting criticals into action. Allows obscuring from decoy and stealth.
13. Blindside – Extra 10% damage against the enemies trying to chop up your decoy or dog.

If you're having lots of staggers everywhere or want to deal more spike damage, switching out blindside and precision/speed for an upgraded lacerate and upgraded explosive strike will also work - just get Aveline/Fenris to stagger an elite before using explosive strike/twin fangs.


If you're still not sure which abilities to get, check out the guides/wiki/game tooltip to see what abilities you think will be useful. Arelex's guide is good in this regards for the Duelist/Assassin. Not sure what Suicidal's referring to, I wouldn't personally use back-to-back or upgrade twin fangs - for an assassin you're better off getting sustains/passives (devious harm, blindside, lacerate) and assassinate

Modifié par mr_afk, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:53 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Vulsamee wrote...

So I just did a respec and I have two abilities left over. I haven't used them yet just in case there's two more in mind I should focus on. I have done the stats and abilities that you have given me, SuicidalBaby, unless there's two more recommended that I should do.

continue filling out the per-requisietes in the assassination tree.

[Toki]

Ah, okay. Thank you very much; you've been a great help. After I fill out Assassin should I go back to my DPS? Or go back to my original Shadow?

[SuicidalBaby]

follow arelex's updated disorient rogue guide. ass/shadow

you should be using pure auto attacks until you begin to get over whelmed, then burn everything with twin fangs targeting elites, then normals.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:15 .

[Toki]

Okay, thank you very much. You think that Aveline/Fenris/Anders is a good team?

[SuicidalBaby]

no.

if anyone should be with a rogue Hawke it should be:
Merrill
Varric
Anders.

[Toki]

Hm. Not to doubt you, but how would that work exactly? I have no experience with Merill, honestly, and have limited with Varric. I'm assuming I'm focusing on taking down the main targets with Assassin with healing Anders, and what is Varric/Marrill's role?

I can assume that they're offensive, but wouldn't it be wise to have Aveline in the party as a tank? Not to sound like an idiot, but this is my first time ever playing Dragon Age competitively, I usually just play casual when it comes to tactics and pick my favorites because Normal difficulty is easy. I initially played Hard, but that was easy as well. Nightmare is an absolute nightmare, however, so I'm having to use my head more than usual.

[SuicidalBaby]

read arelex's rogue guide for the section shadow/assassin.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 08 juillet 2012 - 06:29 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Patch 1.02 (Console) and 1.03 (PC) Build/Tactics/Notes Updates

Since the ruination of the game (courtesy of the patch), it's now all about picking Shadow, staying Obscured, and facerolling with auto-attacks, and the builds have been updated to better play to the strengths and 'diversified gameplay' (I just made myself sick) that 1.02/1.03 bring with them. What you want to do is redirect threat (Dog works great, and Decoy has a built-in Taunt-eqsue function when you drop it) to get your Blindside bonus, unload your big-ticket abilities on Elites/Lieutenants (note that vs a BRITTLE target, an ability that auto-crits, such as Twin Fangs, will recieve a +50% damage increase for free), and auto-attack through the trash.

Note that if you plan on playing without Aveline, you may omit Lacerate and Maim from these builds. If you don't plan on doing every single quest/don't care about which is the 'better' of the two, you should choose Duelist/Shadow, since it builds much faster, and is 'complete' quicker.

For your ability distribution, invest enough CUN to open traps at your level, pump DEX until you get 96-98% crit rate (through armor, items, weapons, accessories, Parry if Duelist, etc), then the rest back into CUN. A Duelist/Shadow rogue might want to throw a few points into WIL as well, since they will have an additional sustain to hold (Parry).

Respec with a Maker's Sigh potion, then follow the list below.

Hawke - Assassin/Shadow

1. Backstab
2. Unforgiving Chain
3. Save Talent Point
4. Explosive Strike, Speed
5. Lacerate
6. Twin Fangs
7. Assassin Specialization, Mark of Death, Blindside (Tome of Technique)
8. Merciless Strike
9. Bloodlust
10. Maim
11. Pinpoint Strikes, Reversed Grip (Elixir of Technique)
12. Assassinate
13. Devious Harm
14. Shadow Specialization, Pinpoint Precision, Disorienting Criticals (Tome of Technique)
15. Mark of Doom
16. Inconspicuous
17. Decoy
18. Sturdy Decoy
19. Annihilate
20. Enduring Mark (Elixir of Heroism)
21. Overkill
22. Precision
23. Power
24. Harmony
25. Lightning Speed
26. Energizing Speed

Anders
http://biowarefans.c...Q1YoRkm0uwGHJKO

Set to Aggressive. Invest in MAG/WIL 2:1, then MAG/WIL/CON 1:1:1, alternating each level. Purchase the Black Emporium Tome for Anders as soon as possible (likely sometime in Act II). Build assumes you do Dissent at level 15 for free Vengeance.

Self: Health <50% - Deactivate: Vengeance
Self: Health <25% - Use Potion
Self: Mana or Stamina <10% - Use: Lyrium Potion
Hawke: Health <25% - Heal
Varric/Sebastian/Isabela: Health <10% - Heal
Enemy: BRITTLE - Martyr (shout out to SuicidalBaby)
Enemy: Target of Hawke - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Petrify
Self: At least one enemy is alive - Haste
Enemy: DISORIENTED - Spirit Bolt
Enemy: DISORIENTED - Stonefist
Enemy: Clustered with at least three enemies - Chain Lightning
Enemy: Target between short and medium range - Tempest
Hawke: Health <50% - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Attacking Hawke - Glyph of Paralysis
Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Glyph of Repulsion
Self: Health >=50% - Activate: Vengeance
Self: Any - Activate: Heroic Aura
Self: Mana or stamina >=50% - Skip tactics
Self: Health >=75% - Martyr

Merrill
http://biowarefans.c...kMc0EeDvGITNhsF

Set to Aggressive. Invest in MAG/CON 2:1, stopping at 225-250 health.

Self: Health <50% - Deactivate: Blood of the First
Self: Health <25% - Use Potion
Hawke: Health <25% - Barrier
Enemy: BRITTLE - Hex of Torment
Enemy: Target of Hawke - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Petrify
Enemy: Clustered with at least three enemies - Wounds of the Past
Enemy: DISORIENTED - Stonefist
Enemy: Clustered with at least three enemies - Chain Lightning
Enemy: DISORIENTED - Spirit Bolt
Enemy: Clustered with at least three enemies - Ensnare
Enemy: Target at short range - Tempest
Self: Health >=50% - Activate: Blood of the First
Self: Any - Activate: Wrath of the Elvhen
Self: Any - Activate: Elemental Weapons
Self: Any - Activate: Rock Armor
Self: Any - Activate: Elemental Shield
Self: Health >=50% - Skip tactics
Self: Mana or stamina <10% - Use: Lyrium Potion
Enemy: Using ranged attack - Attack

Varric
http://social.biowar...0353/19#7944444

Set to Aggresive. Invest in CON to 15, WIL to 15, DEX until he gets guaranteed criticals (100%), then the rest into CUN.

Self: Health <25% - Use Potion
Self: Mana or stamina <10% - Use: Stamina Draught
Enemy: Target at short range - Rush
Enemy: Attacking Anders - Kickback
Self: Surrounded by at least three enemies - Evade
Enemy: Attacking Anders - Rhyming Triplet
Self: Any - Activate - Precision
Self: Any - Activate - Bianca's Song
Enemy: Health >=50% - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Skip tactics
Hawke: Obscured - Skip tactics
Hawke: Any - Chameleon's Breath
Hawke: Any - Fatiguing Fog
Enemy: Attacking Anders - Attack

[Toki]

I did as you said, and I'm still having trouble. It appears that Varric is doing moderate damage along with Marrill while I take down targets with Twin Strike and Assassinate. Anders doesn't seem to be helping much, and I've been losing allot. Is there something I'm doing wrong with this party? I did exactly as you said.

[mr_afk]

tbh, your main problem is probably that you're still too low levelled.
Arelex's guide seems to be more optimised for the bigger picture, once you've unlocked everything. By going assassin first you're missing out on a whole stack of potential dps and threat management.

Based on that level-up order, at level 11 nobody in your party is setting up CCCs.
There are no disorients from hawke or varric which means that Anders and Merrill can't set off any spirit bolt/stone fist CCCs. If you're using those tactics they won't even use it.
You may setup some brittles from petrify, but hawke and varric don't really have any have any abilities to take advantage of it.

In terms of attributes, ideally you would go full dex for hawke and leave varric with the cunning for lockpicking. At your stage, ~21 dex, 30 cun is not enough dex, and your attack ratings and base damage will suffer.

In act 1 the ideal party is with bethany instead of merrill, for dual (upgraded) haste. Using a full dex shadow build with dual haste is all you need to utterly face-wipe act 1.


But since you seem to be waiting for suicidal's opinion I suppose you can keep on doing what you're doing - just untag the 'elite: disoriented --> stonefist' tactics for now so you get a bit more use out of anders and merrill.

Modifié par mr_afk, 08 juillet 2012 - 04:07 .

[Toki]

Ah, well I'm the one with 40 Cunning, which I'm using for lockpicking because originally I was the only Rogue in the party. After 40 cunning, however, I've been throwing everything into Dexterity. I'm actually in Act 2 right now, as the game has been doable just a pain where I'm breezing through or having a tough time. My main problem is that enemies never stop.

But basically, we're trying to set up CCC's? I understand that Petrify is setting up Brittle, but how do I take advantage? Only talent at the top of my head that utilizes it is Mighty Blow. So far I've just been doing: Backstab>Twin Fang/Assassinate to specific enemies. When there's several that I'm taking on I activate Pinpoint Strikes. When going up against bosses or elites I activate Pinpoint Strikes>Backstab>Twin Fangs/Assassinate which usually takes them down. Lower health enemies I can take down from just attacking.

Meanwhile it appears that all Merrill is doing is setting us up with Spirit damage from her staff, while Anders does the Heroic Aura and healing. I'm still confused as to why I'm not focusing on Panacea, which I would assume would be useful on Nightmare with the Aid Allies and Revive? Is it just a matter of waiting it out for some of the better abilities to come into play for some CCC?

[mr_afk]

You've already played the game and don't need to worry about spoilers right?

Here's Arelex's brekker speed run with a post-patch assassin (with what looks like a shadow/assassin):

It's probably a different party setup to the one listed in the guide though, but overall that's the general idea behind these setups - basically everyone deals lots of damage very fast so you don't get damaged and so you don't need healing/revivals.

CCCs aren't really too necessary with a DW hawke since they deal so much damage by their own. But CCCs do help your party deal out a little more damage to be a little more useful.
With Arelex's approach, varric keeps hawke obscured to activate disorienting criticals. This allows hawke to deal more damage and to disorient enemies so that anders and merrill can deal out some CCC spike damage to elites.
Brittling enemies allows an assassinate CCC or just taking advantage of the extra damage 50% crit damage (with enough critical chance or auto-crit abilities)

So the question is whether Varric is using chameleon's breath/fatiguing fog on hawke; and maybe whether Anders is keeping up some sort of perma haste (which is kinda his main role).


I don't have many proper party-setups with rogues, but here's what I was referring to with the early game shadow rogue: [/url]

There's several alternatives to the shadow assassin, with duelist assassins been quite effective in melee setups (with lots of staggers), and shadow duelists been quite effective for the mid-game (until you get enough cunning to make assassin worth it).

Basically, if you look at the guides and watch some of the gameplay vids you should be able to see the general tactics. But you seem to have the idea - just whack elites with spike damage, auto attack the rest.

[Toki]

Ah, okay. So basically if you hit hard and fast you won't have to worry about healing? That makes sense.In my tactics, I think I have it set so Varric obscures me, but in game I don't seem to be obscured often as well as the haste. I'll look into the tactics, maybe I set something different than what I was told, or should that be something I do manually?

I did watch a couple videos of yours and skimmed over many guides here, which I should probably read more carefully, but thank you very much for the help. The main problem is just the fact that I have never played as a Rogue before, nevermind Nightmare, so I'm clueless when it comes to the specializations and party setups allowing me to do well.