97 réponses à ce sujet

[Cultist]

What The Silent Grove does is disregard the choices available for Alistair’s fate in Origins and say that it is now established canon that he is King of Ferelden.
That reminds me about:

Modifié par Cultist, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:53 .

[Fast Jimmy]

It is the end of the import flags. Choices should matter in game, and epilogue slides should give you a satisfying look into the future of how your choice impacted.

Then, in future games, Bioware should decide a story and stick with it, instead of not being able to touch the concept of who is king, if there is an OGB roaming the planet, if the Architect (the closest DA has gotten to a true antagonist) is still alive, etc.

Bioware is shooting themselves in the foot trying to keep import flags and choices carrying over from game to game. It was an amazing attempt, but it is totally unsustainable from every possible viewpoint.

Better to end it now with DA3 then keep dragging and adding to the pile of dead corpses Bioware is carrying around as story-telling baggage.

[David Gaider]

Alistair being King of Ferelden is not "canon", as in it does not affect the choices you made in your game nor override them. The comic is a tale based on one possible version of the game world... as it would need to be, being a comic book and not a video game, and thus unable to react to game decisions.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:14 .

[Cultist]

Thank you for clarification, but this leads to an interesting situation - where books and comics are based of some "canon" storyline with certain events and decisions and if the game may be based on different "canon" then there will be plot holes and overall separated from other content. Like Wynne, who was guttered by some at the Tower yet appeared alive in the book.
That's like making a game in, for example, Star Wars universe where one side completely obliterated another - the game may be good but still separated from the "canon" storyline.
I'm most worried about possible plot holes and that BioWare at some point may decide to remove every other option, except for "King Alistair" like Udina-Anderson, Collector base and Rachnii situation in ME3.

Modifié par Cultist, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:25 .

[Allan Schumacher]

That's like making a game in, for example, Star Wars universe where one side completely obliterated another - the game may be good but still separated from the "canon" storyline.

KOTOR did this.

Do you think KOTOR would be a better game if the dark side ending just wasn't a choice at all?

Especially when dealing with something like Star Wars, in order to maintain consistency you'd have to only allow choices that ultimately mean nothing. Is this reconcilable?

[David Gaider]

Cultist wrote...
Thank you for clarification, but this leads to an interesting situation - where books and comics are based of some "canon" storyline with certain events and decisions and if the game may be based on different "canon" then there will be plot holes and overall separated from other content. Like Wynne, who was guttered by some at the Tower yet appeared alive in the book.
That's like making a game in, for example, Star Wars universe where one side completely obliterated another - the game may be good but still separated from the "canon" storyline.
I'm most worried about possible plot holes and that BioWare at some point may decide to remove every other option, except for "King Alistair" like Udina-Anderson, Collector base and Rachnii situation in ME3.

All possible outcomes in the game are equally "valid", and there's no single canon that outside media are drawing from-- yet, anyhow, though that could work quite well if we wanted to do it that way.

So long as the stories told in comics or novels don't override your choices in future games, I'm uncertain of the source of anxiety regarding them. The choices have continuuity between games because that's the only place where they can have it. If someone's looking for their choices to be reflected in comics and novels, they're being a tad optimistic... while I imagine it might be nice to have your particular game story be the basis for such tales, it's simply not possible to cover all possibilities without simply avoiding all references to earlier characters/storylines altogether.

[thats1evildude]

I imagine you could write a Dragon Age story with absolutely no effect on the overarching storyline and which didn't clash at all with anyone's choices. It would be called "Dragon Age: Dennis the Peasant" and it would detail the efforts of a poor Ferelden muck gatherer's efforts to gather a larger pile of high-quality filth than his neighbours.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .

[KingRoxas]

Hahaha, this is just too funny. The lead writer actually needs to explain that when you write a story for a comic you will need a consistent world a.k.a. "bioware canon".

[King Cousland]

David Gaider wrote...

Cultist wrote...
Thank you for clarification, but this leads to an interesting situation - where books and comics are based of some "canon" storyline with certain events and decisions and if the game may be based on different "canon" then there will be plot holes and overall separated from other content. Like Wynne, who was guttered by some at the Tower yet appeared alive in the book.
That's like making a game in, for example, Star Wars universe where one side completely obliterated another - the game may be good but still separated from the "canon" storyline.
I'm most worried about possible plot holes and that BioWare at some point may decide to remove every other option, except for "King Alistair" like Udina-Anderson, Collector base and Rachnii situation in ME3.

All possible outcomes in the game are equally "valid", and there's no single canon that outside media are drawing from-- yet, anyhow, though that could work quite well if we wanted to do it that way.

So long as the stories told in comics or novels don't override your choices in future games, I'm uncertain of the source of anxiety regarding them. The choices have continuuity between games because that's the only place where they can have it. If someone's looking for their choices to be reflected in comics and novels, they're being a tad optimistic... while I imagine it might be nice to have your particular game story be the basis for such tales, it's simply not possible to cover all possibilities without simply avoiding all references to earlier characters/storylines altogether.

I agree. However, would it be out of the question to ask for a guarantee that there's no plan to do this in the (at least forseeable) future?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The funny part of people being mad that BioWare chose an ending to build a story around is that the mad people have already chosen endings to build their stories around. I'm always like "Why argue about it? You did the same damn thing they did."

[KingRoxas]

harkness72 wrote...
I agree. However, would it be out of the question to ask for a guarantee that there's no plan to do this in the (at least forseeable) future?

You can't guarantee anything, but i would think that continuing with importing the players own "canon" is what they are going for/hoping for.

Modifié par Kingroxas, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:16 .

[Fortlowe]

Ripno's mighty teaching stick strikes again! Wham!!!

[Direwolf0294]

Some people just don't like the idea that even though the game gives you choice there's an "official" version of events. That even though you can play a female Shepard who's getting it on with Garrus the official, canon version of Shepard as shown in expanded media is a straight guy. It's like being told, yeah, you can play your own version of the game, but your version is wrong, here's how things really happened.

Personally, I hate it when a game that offers choices has a canon version of choices that is shown in comics, books etc. I hate what BioWare did with Revan in TOR, I hate what they're planning to do with Shepard and the upcoming Mass Effect film. Make books, comics and films that expand upon the ingame universe, sure, just don't have them have anything to do with the characters or events that happened in the game.

[deuce985]

Time for you to make a choose your adventure book, David.

"if you want to pick the sword up, turn to page 135"

"if you decide to leave the sword sitting in the stone, turn to page 75"

Muahaha!

Modifié par deuce985, 04 juillet 2012 - 12:23 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Just because it happened in a book doesnt make it cannon. Likewise with Shepard and any ME film. Ewe Bol should be evidence enough that game films in no way should be considered canon.

And more to the point you wont be importing that comic into Dragon Age 3. Say what you want about DA2, but they did a fairly decent job of remembering who was sitting on the throne of Ferelden in your playthrough.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:05 .

[EricHVela]

It might not be technically "canon", but it looks to me that it has high preferential treatment, what with the comic and the default, non-import option for Dragon Age: Kirkwall.

It's no wonder that people will assume it is canon (regardless if they're correct about that).

It might as well be canon all things considered.

Yet in that sense, I'm in favor for not importing stuff from previous games. The Wing Commander series and Ultima series did just fine by setting a canon starting point with each game.

It seems to just muck things up when trying to create the game to exist in the past instead of focusing on the present. It's too restrictive and unnecessarily complicated.

Make games that can stand on their own without such gimmicks. To me, this import-your-game thingy has thus far proved a bit disappointing. It's neat in concept but seems not quite worth it in execution.

[Toki]

Does this mean that Loghain is dead? D: After reading The Stolen Throne he is one of my favorite Dragon Age characters.

[Realmzmaster]

The books and comics must have a set canon to be able to tell the story. The comics and books are not just for DA game fans. The books and comics can be picked up by anyone and must be consistent through the series. What is done in the books and comics need not reflect what the gamer did in their individual playthrough. In fact it cannot.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I actually like that you can import your decisions forward into the next game. It's apart of what drew me into Bioware games in the first place. The idea that there were games where my character or world from the first game would continue into the next. And they went above and beyond by including more than just main quests. Maybe they do overcomplicate things and restrict others, but the whole import system is apart of what make Bioware games stand out from many others.

There may be an official "canon" story, but in the end these are game where players are given a series of choices and outcomes provided by the developer. It's a lot like Dungeons and Dragons actually.

In DND, the Dungeon Master gives the players many choices. But those choices are not unlimited, and they have consequences as determined by the DM.

Anyway, with the Silent Grove, as Gaider said, it's just one version of the Dragon Age story. And let's be honest, a lot of players have made Alistair King, whether he married Anora or not. Not everyone, but a lot.

What I wonder is why it bothers people that the official canon conflicts with their own. You don't have to make Alistair King if you don't want to. But, the Silent Grove is an interesting read because of the other things in the story, and the questions it brings about about Key characters and the world itself.

But, anyway, granted the import system can be rather complicated, but I support it so long as Bioware can keep it going. It can be disappointing at times, and not everyone will be pleased, but I think it is something special. Maybe it could be simplified to a list of key decisions like ME:Genesis, if people were really concerned about complications.

But that's just what I think about it. I know a lot of people disagree, and with good reason. But I stand by it. No system is perfect, but it's what attracted me to the games, so I'm kind of attached to it. Silly sentiment, right?

[Cultist]

David Gaider wrote...
All possible outcomes in the game are equally "valid", and there's no single canon that outside media are drawing from-- yet, anyhow, though that could work quite well if we wanted to do it that way.

So long as the stories told in comics or novels don't override your choices in future games, I'm uncertain of the source of anxiety regarding them. The choices have continuuity between games because that's the only place where they can have it. If someone's looking for their choices to be reflected in comics and novels, they're being a tad optimistic... while I imagine it might be nice to have your particular game story be the basis for such tales, it's simply not possible to cover all possibilities without simply avoiding all references to earlier characters/storylines altogether.

The problem in my opinion lies with lack of information about DA3. For example ,Wynne played very important role in the Asunder...yet I remember killing her in the tower, so we already have one possible discarded decision on our hands as Asunder prepared a foundation of Templar-Mage conflict that we'll have to deal with in DA3. We already got resurrected Leliana and I'm afraid we'll see more of such resurrections and forced decisions in the future.

Direwolf0294 wrote...
Some people just don't like the idea that even though the game gives you choice there's an "official" version of events. That even though you can play a female Shepard who's getting it on with Garrus the official, canon version of Shepard as shown in expanded media is a straight guy. It's like being told, yeah, you can play your own version of the game, but your version is wrong, here's how things really happened.

Exactly this.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
KOTOR did this.
Do you think KOTOR would be a better game if the dark side ending just wasn't a choice at all? Especially when dealing with something like Star Wars, in order to maintain consistency you'd have to only allow choices that ultimately mean nothing. Is this reconcilable?

As far as I remember KOTOR took place 4000 years before first SW episode. So you can maneuver the story all you like as time will redeem all your decisions and have no effect on the "canon" SW.

Modifié par Cultist, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:39 .

[AkiKishi]

Cultist wrote...

Exactly this.

But does it matter ? If you change the appearence of Shepard from Sheploo you are playing a "fake" version. Sheploo is the official Shepard.
Once you start taking things beyond the games into books/comics/movies etc. you have to establish a canon for that media. Unlike games it can't be variable.

I'd say you would have more grounds with KOTOR and Revan in TOR because there was never an official poster boy/girl Revan. But both Shepards and Hawke have an official appearence etc. It's pretty clear how things stand from the start.
As long as the game continues to support whatever it was you were choosing, then you have your own little alernate universe.

[Jerrybnsn]

David Gaider wrote...

So long as the stories told in comics or novels don't override your choices in future games, I'm uncertain of the source of anxiety regarding them. The choices have continuuity between games because that's the only place where they can have it.

The importation of certain decisions never really concerned me much, especially since there really wasn't anything important that effected the next game with those importations.  In this sense, DA2 was a let down because, aside from a few mentions of your previous game decisions, their wasn't anything to be concerned about continuity between games.

[Darth Death]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The books and comics must have a set canon to be able to tell the story.

... And that's why I don't read them. 

[LordHuffnPuff]

David Gaider wrote...

while I imagine it might be nice to have your particular game story be the basis for such tales

As somebody whose game story just happened to fit every single book/comic released so far, it is very nice.