97 réponses à ce sujet

[EricHVela]

Anders.

EDIT: 'nough said (without spoilers)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .

[jackofalltrades456]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Anders.

EDIT: 'nough said (without spoilers)

Leliana

The Ferelden Mage's Circle  boon

Every epilogue slide from Origins and Awakening

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:26 .

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

All possible outcomes in the game are equally "valid", and there's no single canon that outside media are drawing from-- yet, anyhow, though that could work quite well if we wanted to do it that way.

I think this is what many people don't understand or like about non-game media. With a non-interactive media (books, comics, anime) the creators have to pick something. It also seems like many people don't get that every single player experienced his or her game differently. There is NO canon, anywhere, period. Just because David Gaider decided to have Wynne alive in Asunder and Alistair as king Silent Grove does not make it official canon.

In my main game save, my mage Warden did things a certain way. In an alternative save, I did everything the same with the two exceptions of having Behlen be king instead of Harrowmont, and saving Vigil's Keep rather than Amaranthine in DAA. Depending on your perspective, those can be major things, or not.

The existence of a post-DAO book and comic does not invalidate your game saves nor does it have an impact on any future game content that would import our decisions from previous games. If you can't deal with reading alternative scenarios, then don't read them. There will always be some player, somewhere, whose own saves conflict with content in an alternative media. But in the end, it doesn't have any impact on that player's game.

I'm thinking that a great deal of this issue stems from the fact that DG himself wrote these materials. And since he is considered the Maker as far as TheDAS (in the real sense of The Dragon Age Setting) is concerned I can certainly understand how people take his world for gospel about everything. I really think that if some other person's name were on these things they would be far more accepted for their purely entertainment value.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:51 .

[robertthebard]

It really comes down to much ado about nothing, doesn't it? Nothing in any of the out of game media, books, movie, comics has affected my game play in any way, shape or form, since I have never read any of them, never got around to it. Just as the events in any other player's save games doesn't affect anything in mine. I'm not playing those other save games, so those decisions don't matter. In my games, Leliana isn't dead, but Alistair is. In some of my games, Zevran is dead, and in others he isn't. Neither choice adversely affects the game where the opposite choice is made, so it doesn't matter. How do my choices affect anyone else's game? So if I got a license, or permission to get my story published, how would my canon setting affect anyone else's?

[EricHVela]

robertthebard wrote...

So if I got a license, or permission to get my story published, how would my canon setting affect anyone else's?

Anders. Leliana.

Your canon setting means nothing regardless how you created it. Their canon setting affects yours by their whim.

Remember that the next time you feel that someone else's canon setting doesn't affect any other person's.

I would rather they not bother. Two successful series (that died after EA acquired the studio) set the canon at the start of each game without regard to how the previous game could end. It simplifies development and lets writers and designers focus on the present game instead of making accomodations for the previous games. We only discover the "canon" after the next game appears and not while we're playing the current game.

[robertthebard]

ReggarBlane wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

So if I got a license, or permission to get my story published, how would my canon setting affect anyone else's?

Anders. Leliana.

Your canon setting means nothing regardless how you created it. Their canon setting affects yours by their whim.

Remember that the next time you feel that someone else's canon setting doesn't affect any other person's.

I would rather they not bother. Two successful series (that died after EA acquired the studio) set the canon at the start of each game without regard to how the previous game could end. It simplifies development and lets writers and designers focus on the present game instead of making accomodations for the previous games. We only discover the "canon" after the next game appears and not while we're playing the current game.

The point is, it doesn't matter who's name is on a comic, my games still play out the way I played them.  What happens in seperate media makes no difference, unless something that happens in one of the media is carried over into the story of a future game, but then, it's not adversely affecting anything I've already done, but something I have yet to do, and it can't be adverse, since I have yet to do it.  To wit, it doesn't matter if they replace the Divine 3 times between now and the next installment of DA, since I have never met her.  If it comes up in the next game, it's an historical fact, even if it happened for the last time the day before the game starts.

The fact that your Warden may have done the DR doesn't currently affect my games where I didn't, yet.  However, even if they decide to make that canon, it is at least consistent with the fact that I had the option to DR or not to DR.  I do believe that that decision cheapens the Wardens that decided to not do the ritual and chose to do US, but that isn't something that's on our plates yet, despite that it may be on the table.  Speculation there, I haven't heard anything definitive about it yet.  However, if I'm writing a book, things have to happen a certain way.  If, for example Tolkien had had Pippin and Merry captured in Fellowship, which they are, and then had them traveling with Frodo and Sam in Mordor for Two Towers, don't you think that would raise some eyebrows?  This is what could happen if Player Agency gets taken into account in a game, and then translated directly into a book.  So good bad or indifferent, a canon for that particular setting has to be chosen, and stuck with throughout, but since we're not playing the books, or the comics, and the guy that writes them has already stated, as recently as this thread that none of the choices for the books/comics are canon to the game, what's all the fuss about?

[BioFan (Official)]

David Gaider wrote...

Cultist wrote...
Thank you for clarification, but this leads to an interesting situation - where books and comics are based of some "canon" storyline with certain events and decisions and if the game may be based on different "canon" then there will be plot holes and overall separated from other content. Like Wynne, who was guttered by some at the Tower yet appeared alive in the book.
That's like making a game in, for example, Star Wars universe where one side completely obliterated another - the game may be good but still separated from the "canon" storyline.
I'm most worried about possible plot holes and that BioWare at some point may decide to remove every other option, except for "King Alistair" like Udina-Anderson, Collector base and Rachnii situation in ME3.

All possible outcomes in the game are equally "valid", and there's no single canon that outside media are drawing from-- yet, anyhow, though that could work quite well if we wanted to do it that way.

So long as the stories told in comics or novels don't override your choices in future games, I'm uncertain of the source of anxiety regarding them. The choices have continuuity between games because that's the only place where they can have it. If someone's looking for their choices to be reflected in comics and novels, they're being a tad optimistic... while I imagine it might be nice to have your particular game story be the basis for such tales, it's simply not possible to cover all possibilities without simply avoiding all references to earlier characters/storylines altogether.

Alistair could be doing all of this regardless if he was king or not. just look at it that way. 

[Kail Ashton]

Hey as long as Alistair returns in every game for all eternity i don't care what you claim is canon or not (or at least any medium that involves Steve Valentine)

Modifié par Kail Ashton, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:52 .

[Wulfram]

Ericander77 wrote...

Alistair could be doing all of this regardless if he was king or not. just look at it that way. 

Not if he's dead.

[element eater]

@OP im not sure why ur pointing to the comic when u neednt look further then the games themselves da2 has a huge amount of content that can simply overide your DAO game as it is.

[Cultist]

element eater wrote...

@OP im not sure why ur pointing to the comic when u neednt look further then the games themselves da2 has a huge amount of content that can simply overide your DAO game as it is.

Who said I coincider DA2 a good game? Leliana resurrection alone was awful enough.

[Furtled]

thats1evildude wrote...
I imagine you could write a Dragon Age story with absolutely no effect on the overarching storyline and which didn't clash at all with anyone's choices. It would be called "Dragon Age: Dennis the Peasant" and it would detail the efforts of a poor Ferelden muck gatherer's efforts to gather a larger pile of high-quality filth than his neighbours.

Ha! That sounds hilarious, like a DA version of The Adventures of Bob, Agent of Hydra. I've not played it yet, but if memory serves the recent Game of Thrones RPG has characters with choices weaving in and out of the events in the books without causing any impact on the core plots.

Canon wise in DA I always treat anything that's not the game I'm playing as AU, still enjoyable and nothing that'll impact my gaming experience, just an interesting what if?

[PinkDiamondstl]

Cultist wrote...

What The Silent Grove does is disregard the choices available for Alistair’s fate in Origins and say that it is now established canon that he is King of Ferelden.
That reminds me about:

^ This is so full of win!

[Emzamination]

Kingroxas wrote...

Hahaha, this is just too funny. The lead writer actually needs to explain that when you write a story for a comic you will need a consistent world a.k.a. "bioware canon".

^ This is exactly  what I was thinking

[wsandista]

element eater wrote...

@OP im not sure why ur pointing to the comic when u neednt look further then the games themselves da2 has a huge amount of content that can simply overide your DAO game as it is.

http://t0.gstatic.co...WGIv2R9Qd5vtCzI

[Archer]

Rojahar wrote...

An unfortunate side effect of telling stories as franchises instead of making various stand-alone games is that the biggest diverging branches will have to converge again down the line, ultimately making the choices feel less meaningful. Bioware has admitted and shown they can't handle telling a story that diverges in two many directions and has too many variables, which is why in their sequels (no matter how dramatically different each ending appeared to change the world in the previous game) the world ends up being more or less the same.

Personally, I believe if you can't do something right, you shouldn't do it at all. If they're not willing to support and build upon the vastly diverging storylines and choices from a game, they shouldn't follow it up with a sequel where things are all pretty much the same (save for minor shoehorned cameos and one or two words here and there... oh wow!) regardless of the previous games' choices.

Instead of changing or invalidating or retconning settings, they could just, you know, make a new setting for each game. That way nobody is whining about a setting being ruined by a sequel, and Bioware has the freedom to go in whatever new direction they please. They could have just made DA2 a new fantasy setting (it's not like DAO was the most original setting ever, nor was DA2 very necessarily tied to it anyway). Not EVERYTHING has to be a sequel/franchise.

Perhaps its more about the "Illusion" of giving us choice.

Take "Priority Tuchanka" in ME3. The mission effectivley plays out the same way and  the overall impact of how the mission ends has very little impact on the conclusion of ME3. But the Illusion of choice is there. There can be a vast difference in which characters appear and what the actual outcome is depending on several key choices made during both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. While ultimatley those decisions dont really impact on the end of the story i still feel that my actions have had an impact on the games narative.

I think this is a key difference between Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Mass Effect gives us the Illusion of choice, where Dragon Age Origins had bigger decisions that could drasticaly alter the games narative. In Mass Effect i felt that decisions i did make, did matter in the overall picture as the Illusion of choice carried well over the three games. This is where IMHO Dragon Age failed somewhat. It almost feels that the writers wrote themselves into a corner for DA2 due to the sheer amount of variables that could be carried over from DAO, in many ways i think this is why the story is a lot more linear in DA2, with the approach being to give us the Illusion of choice, like Mass Effect. I think this highlights that the writing team were considering how future games in the franchise would play out. That said the import bug can be somewhat frustrating in DA2 and the adding of cannon characters also spoilt my imersion to some degree, the key example being Liliana (who i actually decapitated in the DAO import i used for my first DA2 playthrough)

Observations aside though and to return to the OP's original point, i personaly have no issues with events playing out differently in novels or comics etc. I play games such as DA ,ME or KOTOR because i enjoy a good story, and thats one thing (for the most part, sorry ME3 ending  ) that Bioware do exceptionaly well. Just because Alistair or Wynne survive in a Dragon Age novel doesnt effect my enjoyment of the games in any way. Its just another medium for me to enjoy the Dragon Age universe. I greatly enjoyed all three of Mr Gaiders novels (more please Sir!  ) and while they may reflect some "cannon" decisions that i may or may not have made in the game, it makes no difference to my overall enjoyment of Dragon Age as a game.

The only time it perhaps become an issue to me is if a choice i made within the context of the game is ignored, an example being my Leliana reference above. I can accept a choice in game having a minimal impact on the games plot, as long as that choice is still reflected in the game. Some examples, the collector base decision in ME2, the council decision in ME1. They dont really change anything in ME3 but the choice is still aknowledged in my playthroughs.

The novels and comics are to my mind another way of enjoying the compelling and interesting universes Bioware have created for us. They enhance the enjoyment of the games and provide me with an alternative way of getting a Dragon Age or Mass Effect fix.

A final observation though, i do find it interesting that Mass Effect novels actually try and avoid making cannon statements, unlike the Dragon Age novels. Shepard when referenced in the novels is never cannonised as male or female and game events that are referenced are always referenced in a way that doesnt invalidate choice mad in game (with the exception of Anderson or Udina as councilor, but even this is presented in a way that doesnt totaly invalidate the choice made in ME1) Perhaps this is a reflection of my point about the Illusion of consequence/choice vs actual consequence?

Either way the Dragon Age novels and comics are a cracking read

Modifié par eveynameiwantisfekintaken, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .

[Hanniel]

About the game, if you'll ask me, the PC is just a character supporting Alistair to get him to the throne and for the PC just to have a role in the story just like any normal RPGs you can find out there. Alistair is the main Protagonist of Dragon Age: Origins and the one who should have a child with Morrigan IMO. lol

[KingRoxas]

Hanniel wrote...

About the game, if you'll ask me, the PC is just a character supporting Alistair to get him to the throne and for the PC just to have a role in the story just like any normal RPGs you can find out there. Alistair is the main Protagonist of Dragon Age: Origins and the one who should have a child with Morrigan IMO. lol

He should be dead with Anora ruling, in my opinion of course.

[robertthebard]

Kingroxas wrote...

Hanniel wrote...

About the game, if you'll ask me, the PC is just a character supporting Alistair to get him to the throne and for the PC just to have a role in the story just like any normal RPGs you can find out there. Alistair is the main Protagonist of Dragon Age: Origins and the one who should have a child with Morrigan IMO. lol

He should be dead with Anora ruling, in my opinion of course.

Actually, he should be dead, Anora should be locked up, and my CE should be Queen, and on the verge of purging Denerim of humans.

[Cutlasskiwi]

robertthebard wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...

Hanniel wrote...

About the game, if you'll ask me, the PC is just a character supporting Alistair to get him to the throne and for the PC just to have a role in the story just like any normal RPGs you can find out there. Alistair is the main Protagonist of Dragon Age: Origins and the one who should have a child with Morrigan IMO. lol

He should be dead with Anora ruling, in my opinion of course.

Actually, he should be dead, Anora should be locked up, and my CE should be Queen, and on the verge of purging Denerim of humans.

You guys are all wrong. He's sitting in the Hanged Man being miserable and drunk. 

Modifié par Cutlasskiwi, 07 juillet 2012 - 10:47 .

[Uccio]

Cultist wrote...

What The Silent Grove does is disregard the choices available for Alistair’s fate in Origins and say that it is now established canon that he is King of Ferelden.
That reminds me about:

Right click and save. Hilarious image.

[Uccio]

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...

Hanniel wrote...

About the game, if you'll ask me, the PC is just a character supporting Alistair to get him to the throne and for the PC just to have a role in the story just like any normal RPGs you can find out there. Alistair is the main Protagonist of Dragon Age: Origins and the one who should have a child with Morrigan IMO. lol

He should be dead with Anora ruling, in my opinion of course.

Actually, he should be dead, Anora should be locked up, and my CE should be Queen, and on the verge of purging Denerim of humans.

You guys are all wrong. He's sitting in the Hanged Man being miserable and drunk. 

No no guys, you are really wrong. Alistair is king and Anora is his queen. Thats where I left him.

[Big I]

nightscrawl wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
All possible outcomes in the game are equally "valid", and there's no single canon that outside media are drawing from-- yet, anyhow, though that could work quite well if we wanted to do it that way.

I think this is what many people don't understand or like about non-game media. With a non-interactive media (books, comics, anime) the creators have to pick something. It also seems like many people don't get that every single player experienced his or her game differently. There is NO canon, anywhere, period. Just because David Gaider decided to have Wynne alive in Asunder and Alistair as king Silent Grove does not make it official canon.

My problem with running with a choice in order to facilitate a book/comic/whatever is that it makes the setting less cohesive.


I liked Asunder, I thought it was interesting and well written. However I can't reconcile what happened in it with the games. The plot is dependent on two characters who could be dead (Shale and Wynne). Are we to assume that somehow events played out the same way in Orlais without the inclusion of these two characters? Or is it possible that they played out in different ways we'll never learn about?


I never read the Silent Grove, but if it's anything like Asunder it works very well as a story and far less so as an addition to the Dragon Age setting. The idea of expanded universe material in any franchise is that it adds to the source material, it doesn't take away. If Stephen King wrote a version of Return of the Jedi where Luke Skywalker became a Sith lord I'm sure it'd be a great read, but it would do nothing to expand either my interest or understanding of that character and the world he inhabits. It'd be like reading a non-canon fanfic.


When I read expanded universe material I do so because I like the story franchise and I want to know more about it. If the story I'm reading can't do that because it contradicts the source material then there's not much point to it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Anders.

EDIT: 'nough said (without spoilers)

Leliana

The Ferelden Mage's Circle  boon

Every epilogue slide from Origins and Awakening

These are why at this point I prefer to see DAO as its own standalone experience, with Awakening and the dlc's being kinda optional-ish extended epilogues.

I'd rephrase or copypaste my entire rant on this from a couple of days ago, but I feel that Rojahar has already pretty much made the same point I was going to.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:14 .