97 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Some people just don't like the idea that even though the game gives you choice there's an "official" version of events. That even though you can play a female Shepard who's getting it on with Garrus the official, canon version of Shepard as shown in expanded media is a straight guy. It's like being told, yeah, you can play your own version of the game, but your version is wrong, here's how things really happened.

Personally, I hate it when a game that offers choices has a canon
version of choices that is shown in comics, books etc. I hate what
BioWare did with Revan in TOR, I hate what they're planning to do with
Shepard and the upcoming Mass Effect film. Make books, comics and films
that expand upon the ingame universe, sure, just don't have them have
anything to do with the characters or events that happened in the game.

It's only wrong in your head. And thus that is where the problem lies.
Not with BioWare.
Not with the writers.
But with your (and people like you) inabiltiy to cope with it.

And since I have absolutely 0 sympathy with that predicament, as you can guess, your plight causes me amusement.

[Cimeas]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Some people just don't like the idea that even though the game gives you choice there's an "official" version of events. That even though you can play a female Shepard who's getting it on with Garrus the official, canon version of Shepard as shown in expanded media is a straight guy. It's like being told, yeah, you can play your own version of the game, but your version is wrong, here's how things really happened.

Personally, I hate it when a game that offers choices has a canon
version of choices that is shown in comics, books etc. I hate what
BioWare did with Revan in TOR, I hate what they're planning to do with
Shepard and the upcoming Mass Effect film. Make books, comics and films
that expand upon the ingame universe, sure, just don't have them have
anything to do with the characters or events that happened in the game.

It's only wrong in your head. And thus that is where the problem lies.
Not with BioWare.
Not with the writers.
But with your (and people like you) inabiltiy to cope with it.

And since I have absolutely 0 sympathy with that predicament, as you can guess, your plight causes me amusement.

They can't continue trying to get around the choices of ME and DA.  Eventually there will be too many variations to import and they'll have to establish a canon, and I'm fine with that.    I still really enjoyed the game!

[LobselVith8]

Cimeas wrote...

They can't continue trying to get around the choices of ME and DA.  Eventually there will be too many variations to import and they'll have to establish a canon, and I'm fine with that.    I still really enjoyed the game!

Well, they already have. Look at Leliana being alive, even if your Warden killed her; look at Anders and Justice, who met even if Justice was killed and Anders was never recruited; Magi boon is turned down despite what we saw in Origins (which includes the new ruler ordering Greagoir to leave the mages alone in the US ending); the Dalish boon didn't work out despite what we read in Origins Epilogue; Oghren is alive in Awakening even if you killed him; Cullen is in Kirkwall now. A canon has been imposed already for quite a few choices. If it happens again, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[ladyofpayne]

I hope so.
Alistair is the best variation for Ferelden king.
Anora is bad choice because can't give a heir so after her death Fereldan will drown in blood.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's like making a game in, for example, Star Wars universe where one side completely obliterated another - the game may be good but still separated from the "canon" storyline.

KOTOR did this.

Did it?  The dark side ending required that you take control of the Star Forge and build a fleet with it, yes, but I don't recall it establishing what you did with that fleet.

I'll have to look that up.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Some people just don't like the idea that even though the game gives you choice there's an "official" version of events.

There doesn't need to be an official version of events at all.  For each game or book or comic, yes, some version of past events needs to be chosen to serve as foundation for taht new narrative, but those don't all need to agree with each other.

[FieryDove]

I think the plan was for Alistair to be king and on the off chance one hated him/killed him off Anora would fill in. Just look at awakening...If you romance Ali and let him stay where he is happy as a GW he is supposed to help you rebuild the wardens. Where is he? No one mentions him, no letters, nada zip.

So I assumed I picked the *wrong* option in my few dao playthoughs. (Most of my dao runs I died so it didn't matter).

[MKDAWUSS]

When it comes to digital media (ie, digital comics, e-novels, etc.), "importing" your save choices (just check the right boxes) should be feasible, pending the medium and the effect of it. For example, in The Silent Grove, Warden Alistair would have different lines than King Alistair (of course, Corpse Alistair would be hopeless in that scenario).

Hard formats (physical comics and novels), of course, are another issue entirely.

[NKKKK]

I think Gaider is going to write that he becomes King anyways. Bann Teagen seems to be plotting something by bringing a drunk Alistair back from Kirkwall.

It seems that no matter what, all those scenarios with Alistair will lead him to throne, and corpse Alistair? He's not dead until his head rolls on the floor.

While I hate this it's easier to make a game like this, but you end up sucking big time.

Modifié par NKKKK, 23 juillet 2012 - 02:08 .

[Mike3207]

Anyone even know what canon means? Canon means something that occurs across all possible playthroughs.

The battle of Ostagar
The Warden putting together the armies
The Landsmeet
The battle of Denerim
The Dark Ritual

It's not:

The choice of a King and Queen; Alistair will not be King in all playthroughs.
About DLC not sure, if you don't do the DLC does it happen?

Now if Gaider puts Alistair in as King in the main story of DA3, you can throw all that out the window.

[Kommunicating]

If Alistair is made King of Fereldan in DA3, then I will be the unhappiest person in the entire world. Choices matter. If my choices from Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age II have no effect in Dragon Age III then what's the point of even spending the money on the game. In Dragon Age: Origins, I made sure Alistair isn't put forth as King of Fereldan. The only reason he should be put on the throne is because of his blood, nothing else. If you harden Alistair, yes, he will put up with the decision being made for him but it's not his decision. I made sure my buddy Alistair remain in the Grey Wardens, just like he wanted and what he was telling The Warden he wanted throughout the entire game. So, in conclusion, Anora is Queen of Fereldan... Alistair remains one of the greatest Grey Wardens of all time. If Anora is not Queen of Fereldan in DA 3.. heads will roll.

[addiction21]

Mike Smith wrote...

Anyone even know what canon means? Canon means something that occurs across all possible playthroughs.

No they do not. It is like plot hole and retcon. Just terms they know exsist but throw out there so it seems like their arguements have more weight to them. Just like everyone who says "the fans" "we want" or "the majority x"

These terms have lost all meaning. Just how love and hate have become interchangable with "I liked" and "I did not like"

[MKDAWUSS]

Mike Smith wrote...

Anyone even know what canon means? Canon means something that occurs across all possible playthroughs.

It's the official version of events. Obviously something that happens across all playthroughs ends up as canon by default as it can't be contradicted (canon breaking), but canon often tends to involve an official set of decisions which may or may not be the same decisions the consumer makes.

[David Gaider]

addiction21 wrote...
No they do not. It is like plot hole and retcon. Just terms they know exsist but throw out there so it seems like their arguements have more weight to them.

Yep.

Personally, I'd be fine with establishing canon in-between games-- more than fine, actually, as it'd make my life easier. Paying any attention to player choices in the narrative between games is difficult, which is why almost no games do it.

Of course, since only extremes can exist in internet opinions, this means that any mention of choices having an effect means that every single one of them is of equal value and must not only be respected but cause divergence (if not an entirely new plot per choice)... either that or REALITY LOSES ALL MEANING.

Heh.

Anyway, whatever happens, the comic has no impact on future games. Alistair could conceivably become the king even if he was exiled, if the plot dictated that happen (HOW DARE YOU DO THAT REALITY WOULD LOSE ALL MEANING), but there are no plans to do so... and, if it happened, it wouldn't be the comic dictating it. Make sense?

Modifié par David Gaider, 23 juillet 2012 - 04:17 .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Will the same treatment be done with Assunder - that is if we sided with templars in Origin?, Wynne is dead, and then whole plot of Assunder never happens. Also the same problem is with Shale and the Anvil of Void.

[MKDAWUSS]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Will the same treatment be done with Assunder - that is if we sided with templars in Origin?, Wynne is dead, and then whole plot of Assunder never happens. Also the same problem is with Shale and the Anvil of Void.

You can keep Wynne alive and side with the Temps. I do it all the time.

[MKDAWUSS]

David Gaider wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
No they do not. It is like plot hole and retcon. Just terms they know exsist but throw out there so it seems like their arguements have more weight to them.

Yep.

Personally, I'd be fine with establishing canon in-between games-- more than fine, actually, as it'd make my life easier. Paying any attention to player choices in the narrative between games is difficult, which is why almost no games do it.

Of course, since only extremes can exist in internet opinions, this means that any mention of choices having an effect means that every single one of them is of equal value and must not only be respected but cause divergence (if not an entirely new plot per choice)... either that or REALITY LOSES ALL MEANING.

Heh.

Anyway, whatever happens, the comic has no impact on future games. Alistair could conceivably become the king even if he was exiled, if the plot dictated that happen (HOW DARE YOU DO THAT REALITY WOULD LOSE ALL MEANING), but there are no plans to do so... and, if it happened, it wouldn't be the comic dictating it. Make sense?

I think the trick is to return to a common point where it plausibly neutralizes whatever choice you made. Most of the DAO epilogues did a rather decent job of it, even though we never saw that common point, outside of the Mage Tower in Witch Hunt. The next part would be selling the illusion that your decision did indeed result in how things currently are.

When it comes to characters, the question becomes: Of those that live, who makes a returning appearance and who exits stage left? If they exit stage left, then we the player should be able to do whatever we want with them.

Since we're talking about the comic and how it's based on the presumption of one set of choices which may or may not be canon, will there be content that is based on the presumption of a different set of choices? Will we see a comic with either Warden Alistair? From the sounds of it, one choice seems to get more content than others...

[Tinxa]

I'd just rather that the plot of one game has as little as possible to do with the next game. DAO was about the blight and DA2 was about Hawke and templars/mages. Having a few NPCs (ones that live in every possible scenario) and cameos from one show up in the other is fine, what I don't want is for the plot of DA3 revolving around OGB for example because there was the option to sacrifice the warden. DA games weren't supposed to be a trilogy like ME so I don't know why complicate things in the next game with stuff you could do in this game. DA3 should just take place in Tevinter (for example) where they have their own problems and no one cares about who is king in Ferelden.

I think it was a mistake for DA2 to just be a story set for DA3, as a result it has no satisfying ending like DAO had. Hawke is missing and Cassandra is solving some trouble in the land... the end. I just had no motivation to see that ending again.

[mopotter]

I really don't mind a "canon" story line for people who haven't played DA:O or DA2. They have to start somewhere and if they use ideas from the books, or just pick a possible ending it works.

I hope that games can be imported so that if Anora was Queen and Alistair with Warden took off it shows, but I do have a couple of games where Alistair and Anora are King/Queen and one with Alistair and the Warden as King/Queen.

I enjoy the books, haven't seen the comic.

[MKDAWUSS]

mopotter wrote...

I really don't mind a "canon" story line for people who haven't played DA:O or DA2. They have to start somewhere and if they use ideas from the books, or just pick a possible ending it works.

I thought that's what the default save state was for - so newbies to the franchise have a recap and/or starting point.

[Bekkael]

I honestly don't understand the problem. The DA games allow you to make interesting and varied choices for each character you play: that's a win. Carrying those choices across to another game in the franchise sounds like a nightmare frankly, unless you are playing as the same character across a relatively short time period (such as Shepard in the Mass Effect series).

I would far prefer they concentrate on preserving choice within the context of each new game, and if that means making some hard and fast decisions such as Alistair as king, or whatever, so be it.

(Geez, hope you BioWare writers have the patience of Job. The constant complaining and nit-picking in this community is off the charts, IMO. Keep up the good work on the DA franchise! There are many gamers who play and love DA:O, DA2, and eagerly anticipate the next DA game to come. )

[mopotter]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

mopotter wrote...

I really don't mind a "canon" story line for people who haven't played DA:O or DA2. They have to start somewhere and if they use ideas from the books, or just pick a possible ending it works.

I thought that's what the default save state was for - so newbies to the franchise have a recap and/or starting point.

It's quite possible that I missunderstood the whole cannon/default idea.  I used one of the defaults and carried over some but  as long as I can carry over the basic information and just hear someone talk about it, I'm fine.

[NKKKK]

Anyway, whatever happens, the comic has no impact on future games. Alistair could conceivably become the king even if he was exiled, if the plot dictated that happen (HOW DARE YOU DO THAT REALITY WOULD LOSE ALL MEANING), but there are no plans to do so... and, if it happened, it wouldn't be the comic dictating it. Make sense?

Don't do it Gaider, don't do it...

[Wulfram]

DA2 made me think that imports are only worthwhile if you're sticking to the same protagonist. And that's even assuming that it doesn't have to be as much of a buggy mess as it was.

The worst thing to do would be to have imports that only serve to explain how your choices didn't matter and everything ends up the same whatever. Far better to pick a canon than that.

[MKDAWUSS]

Wulfram wrote...

The worst thing to do would be to have imports that only serve to explain how your choices didn't matter and everything ends up the same whatever. Far better to pick a canon than that.

Isn't that what the DAO epilogue slides essentially did?