229 réponses à ce sujet

[RadicalDisconnect]

Grimwick wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Justified through space magic?

They also look brainwashed to me, they don't have any different opinions.

Look, I try to keep my comments polite, but you are literally making random crap up to support your opinion. Where does it say that nobody has differing opinoons any more? Or is it your contention that it is impossible to have differing opinions without going to war over it? Do you realize how stupid you sound when you make comments like this?

Rofl. They create a 'consensus'. If you've studied politics to any small degree you'd realise that such a feat is impossible once, let alone consistently and permanently. Basic human psychological principles are in complete contrast to the idea of this 'mass cooperation'. Game theory also predicts the exact opposite and is based on the idea that everyone is perfectly rational.

It wouldn't be so hard to believe if it wasn't instantaneous. Synthesis makes no logical sense as a solution and so I'm simply trying to speculate upon the pieces we have.

So far any other explanation has been equally speculative or more absurd.

You're projecting real world attributes into the universe of Mass Effect. Many things in the Mass Effect series don't reflect reality, but they are simply accepted. If you are going to use your argument, make sure you're not setting a double standard.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Baronesa wrote...

Yes, it is a distinct possibility.

During the cinematic, soldiers are shown fighting Reaper forces, once the green space magic happens they simply stop fighting. How did they knew the Reapers were no longer a threat? Just becoming part synthetic is not enough to make peace, unless something is changed on the perceptions they have

I agree that it's a possibility, but how does it differ from Control?

[Meltemph]

Kinda sorta, since your biochemistry and your entire genetic structure is goign to be changed and altered. That will effect ones mind... who knows though, I dont think the writers care that biochemistry effects the brain and in this game, it probably doesnt mean anything.

Modifié par Meltemph, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:49 .

[RiouHotaru]

Jamie9 wrote...

The same thought process that resulted in the allied fleets dieing of starvation.

Oh god, this.  So much this.  I remember folks screaming "They HAVE to starve, it's the only logical conclusion!"

Such idiocy.

[Welsh Inferno]

Ignorance truly is bliss I see.

[chuckles471]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Does EDI sound like she's brainwashed in synthesis? Does your crew look brainwashed in synthesis?

Seriously, where does this moronic argument come from anyway? Where does the synthesis ending imply that everyone gets brainwashed? It doesn't.

That no one is caving that husks head in at the end and nobody is trying to blow up the reapers.

I would be doing it.
Also when your eyes are green flashlights, I would say you looked brainwashed.

[Grimwick]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Rofl. They create a 'consensus'. If you've studied politics to any small degree you'd realise that such a feat is impossible once, let alone consistently and permanently. Basic human psychological principles are in complete contrast to the idea of this 'mass cooperation'. Game theory also predicts the exact opposite and is based on the idea that everyone is perfectly rational.

It wouldn't be so hard to believe if it wasn't instantaneous. Synthesis makes no logical sense as a solution and so I'm simply trying to speculate upon the pieces we have.

So far any other explanation has been equally speculative or more absurd.

JC Denton explains it best.

You know it's funny because at 1:29 he says 'human nature... is a force to be controlled'.

If that isn't brainwashing I don't know what is...

Even if it wasn't it is still more speculative and rather more absurd than brainwashing. i'd rather go with Occam's razor on this one.

[Jamie9]

Baronesa wrote...

Yes, it is a distinct possibility.

During the cinematic, soldiers are shown fighting Reaper forces, once the green space magic happens they simply stop fighting. How did they knew the Reapers were no longer a threat? Just becoming part synthetic is not enough to make peace, unless something is changed on the perceptions they have

They only stop fighting as the Reapers fly away.

[lillitheris]

Yes, it does. For some definition of brainwash.

[v TricKy v]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
There aren't any synthetics left to fight...

Because organics can only fight synthetics?
There should political fallout over the salarian's inaction and the asari's deception.
Just it because it is not shown, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just like because we are not shown resentment against the Reapers, that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

nice argument.
Just because we dont see it doesnt mean it didnt happened. I think everyone died in Synthesis at the end, we just didnt see it.

[Grimwick]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Justified through space magic?

They also look brainwashed to me, they don't have any different opinions.

Look, I try to keep my comments polite, but you are literally making random crap up to support your opinion. Where does it say that nobody has differing opinoons any more? Or is it your contention that it is impossible to have differing opinions without going to war over it? Do you realize how stupid you sound when you make comments like this?

Rofl. They create a 'consensus'. If you've studied politics to any small degree you'd realise that such a feat is impossible once, let alone consistently and permanently. Basic human psychological principles are in complete contrast to the idea of this 'mass cooperation'. Game theory also predicts the exact opposite and is based on the idea that everyone is perfectly rational.

It wouldn't be so hard to believe if it wasn't instantaneous. Synthesis makes no logical sense as a solution and so I'm simply trying to speculate upon the pieces we have.

So far any other explanation has been equally speculative or more absurd.

You're projecting real world attributes into the universe of Mass Effect. Many things in the Mass Effect series don't reflect reality, but they are simply accepted. If you are going to use your argument, make sure you're not setting a double standard.

Sc-fi is Sci-f because it sets a scientific precedent and then extrapolates. To maintain narrative coherence it never breaks this precedent, nor does it stray too far into disbelief/space magic without explaining it. the remaining natural laws outside of this precedent remain the same - which is why they need artificial gravity in ME, or why everything futuristic is based purely on eezo technology.

Justifying synthesis' method through space magic and saying it's 'just because it's fiction' is a very poor writing tool and breaks immersion. I was applying real world laws in order to maintain this as other explanations haven't been made.

[Welsh Inferno]

chuckles471 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Does EDI sound like she's brainwashed in synthesis? Does your crew look brainwashed in synthesis?

Seriously, where does this moronic argument come from anyway? Where does the synthesis ending imply that everyone gets brainwashed? It doesn't.

That no one is caving that husks head in at the end and nobody is trying to blow up the reapers.

I would be doing it.
Also when your eyes are green flashlights, I would say you looked brainwashed.

No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking "What the f*** just happened?!" "The Reapers are leaving?!" "Why do I feel so different?" "Why is that husk now looking at me like it thinking the exact same damn thing?" 

Those are damn well what I would be thinking.

[savionen]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

The same thought process that resulted in the allied fleets dieing of starvation.

Oh god, this.  So much this.  I remember folks screaming "They HAVE to starve, it's the only logical conclusion!"

Such idiocy.

Good thing they retcon'd the starvation out eh?

[Fawx9]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

The same thought process that resulted in the allied fleets dieing of starvation.

Oh god, this.  So much this.  I remember folks screaming "They HAVE to starve, it's the only logical conclusion!"

Such idiocy.

Please tell me how there was no starvation at the very least on coloney worlds when the relays were destoryed.

And don't tell me they weren't, the all knowing and ever logical catalyst said they would be.

[legion999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

legion999 wrote...

If Synthesis is to stop all conflict between organics and synthetics it would need to.

I see this a lot. Please explain.

Apologies for the delayed response. If Synthesis doesn't at least alter the minds and opinions of organics and synthetics then they'll still (apparently) wipe each other out. If it doesn't alter their minds at all then it doesn't fix anything. Also there's the issue that the races of the galaxy are now fine with the Reapers despite the horrible things they've done. Then there's Javik who hates everything synthetic yet is fine with synthesis apparently. 

[RadicalDisconnect]

For the husk argument, I tried addressing it in this thread that no one paid attention to.
Husk in Synthesis -- a projection/extension of the reaper's mind?

The gist of it is that the husks are simply extensions of a reaper's mind, and it is looking at the human soldiers and at itself, surprised at the change, and maybe surprised that it's no longer under the will of the Catalyst (this part is my speculation).

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:58 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Grimwick wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Rofl. They create a 'consensus'. If you've studied politics to any small degree you'd realise that such a feat is impossible once, let alone consistently and permanently. Basic human psychological principles are in complete contrast to the idea of this 'mass cooperation'. Game theory also predicts the exact opposite and is based on the idea that everyone is perfectly rational.

It wouldn't be so hard to believe if it wasn't instantaneous. Synthesis makes no logical sense as a solution and so I'm simply trying to speculate upon the pieces we have.

So far any other explanation has been equally speculative or more absurd.

JC Denton explains it best.

You know it's funny because at 1:29 he says 'human nature... is a force to be controlled'.

If that isn't brainwashing I don't know what is...

*sigh* If you'd actually watch the rest of the video you'd know how it's not brainwashing. <_<

Even if it wasn't it is still more speculative and rather more absurd than brainwashing. i'd rather go with Occam's razor on this one.

Occams Razor has nothing to do with this. Brainwashing is not a better explanation for how synthesis works than any other explanation. In fact, brainwashing doesn't make any sense at all and leaves a lot of questions:

How does brainwashing assure peace?

How does brainwashing make sure organics and synthetics co-operate?

How does brainwashing ensure that no future wars between organics and synthetics errupt?

How do brainwashed beings still function properly?

How would a society with brainwashed individuals not collapse?

If everyone is brainwashed, who is the one controlling the brainwashed people?

How about newborn babies? Are they brainwashed from their very birth? How?


See how absurt "lol it's brainwashing" is? It's a terrible explanation. My explanation, where I use what I know from Deus Ex (2) to explain synthesis, makes much more sense.

[Jamie9]

Fawx9 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

The same thought process that resulted in the allied fleets dieing of starvation.

Oh god, this.  So much this.  I remember folks screaming "They HAVE to starve, it's the only logical conclusion!"

Such idiocy.

Please tell me how there was no starvation at the very least on coloney worlds when the relays were destoryed.

And don't tell me they weren't, the all knowing and ever logical catalyst said they would be.

They make food? You know, artifically?

[RadicalDisconnect]

legion999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

legion999 wrote...

If Synthesis is to stop all conflict between organics and synthetics it would need to.

I see this a lot. Please explain.

Apologies for the delayed response. If Synthesis doesn't at least alter the minds and opinions of organics and synthetics then they'll still (apparently) wipe each other out. If it doesn't alter their minds at all then it doesn't fix anything. Also there's the issue that the races of the galaxy are now fine with the Reapers despite the horrible things they've done. Then there's Javik who hates everything synthetic yet is fine with synthesis apparently. 

This is seems like a valid line of reasoning. However, how would you explain that people accepted the Reapers in Control as well? No one made the accusation that they're brainwashed by Control.

[chuckles471]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

chuckles471 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Does EDI sound like she's brainwashed in synthesis? Does your crew look brainwashed in synthesis?

Seriously, where does this moronic argument come from anyway? Where does the synthesis ending imply that everyone gets brainwashed? It doesn't.

That no one is caving that husks head in at the end and nobody is trying to blow up the reapers.

I would be doing it.
Also when your eyes are green flashlights, I would say you looked brainwashed.

No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking "What the f*** just happened?!" "The Reapers are leaving?!" "Why do I feel so different?" "Why is that husk now looking at me like it thinking the exact same damn thing?" 

Those are damn well what I would be thinking.

"No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking"
Point proved methinks.

[Jamie9]

chuckles471 wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

chuckles471 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Does EDI sound like she's brainwashed in synthesis? Does your crew look brainwashed in synthesis?

Seriously, where does this moronic argument come from anyway? Where does the synthesis ending imply that everyone gets brainwashed? It doesn't.

That no one is caving that husks head in at the end and nobody is trying to blow up the reapers.

I would be doing it.
Also when your eyes are green flashlights, I would say you looked brainwashed.

No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking "What the f*** just happened?!" "The Reapers are leaving?!" "Why do I feel so different?" "Why is that husk now looking at me like it thinking the exact same damn thing?" 

Those are damn well what I would be thinking.

"No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking"
Point proved methinks.

Could you have taken that any more out of context?

A point has been proven, but it's not the one you think it is.

[Welsh Inferno]

chuckles471 wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

chuckles471 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Does EDI sound like she's brainwashed in synthesis? Does your crew look brainwashed in synthesis?

Seriously, where does this moronic argument come from anyway? Where does the synthesis ending imply that everyone gets brainwashed? It doesn't.

That no one is caving that husks head in at the end and nobody is trying to blow up the reapers.

I would be doing it.
Also when your eyes are green flashlights, I would say you looked brainwashed.

No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking "What the f*** just happened?!" "The Reapers are leaving?!" "Why do I feel so different?" "Why is that husk now looking at me like it thinking the exact same damn thing?" 

Those are damn well what I would be thinking.

"No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking"
Point proved methinks.

Lol, riiight. What, am "I" the one brainwashing you now? Oh noes

Obviously missed the bottom where I put "Those are damn well what I would be thinking"

[Ryoten]

If laughing at the concept and glowing circuit boards on everyone is "brainwashing", then sign me up for some mega brainwashing!

Modifié par Ryoten, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:06 .

[legion999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

legion999wrote...

Apologies for the delayed response. If Synthesis doesn't at least alter the minds and opinions of organics and synthetics then they'll still (apparently) wipe each other out. If it doesn't alter their minds at all then it doesn't fix anything. Also there's the issue that the races of the galaxy are now fine with the Reapers despite the horrible things they've done. Then there's Javik who hates everything synthetic yet is fine with synthesis apparently. 

This is seems like a valid line of reasoning. However, how would you explain that people accepted the Reapers in Control as well? No one made the accusation that they're brainwashed by Control.

In control you could say the Sheaprd AI persuaded or intimidated people to accept the Reapers. I have also seen some people state that it is odd that everyone is fine with the Reapers in Control as well but it may be due to the Reapers being used as a force to repair the damage done.

[Grimwick]

[quote]Heretic_Hanar wrote...

[quote]Grimwick wrote...

[quote]Heretic_Hanar wrote...

[quote]Grimwick wrote...

Rofl. They create a 'consensus'. If you've studied politics to any small degree you'd realise that such a feat is impossible once, let alone consistently and permanently. Basic human psychological principles are in complete contrast to the idea of this 'mass cooperation'. Game theory also predicts the exact opposite and is based on the idea that everyone is perfectly rational.

It wouldn't be so hard to believe if it wasn't instantaneous. Synthesis makes no logical sense as a solution and so I'm simply trying to speculate upon the pieces we have.

So far any other explanation has been equally speculative or more absurd.

[/quote]

JC Denton explains it best.



[/quote]

You know it's funny because at 1:29 he says 'human nature... is a force to be controlled'.

If that isn't brainwashing I don't know what is...
[/quote]

*sigh* If you'd actually watch the rest of the video you'd know how it's not brainwashing. <_<[/quote]

Ok:
1:52 - 'Makes everybody's mind equal.'

He then goes on to ignore the question asked about how it works. Looks like control of the brain to me.

2:47 - 'Once every mind has been enhanced.' - Who decides what is an enhancement? Why are they changing people's brains?

Changing people's brains to match your vision is what brainwashing is. This looks exactly like that.
Furthermore he gives no explanation of how such a system actually works. Only loose and waffly talk about how everyone will benefit. In reality it appears that it's a system like our governements today - but being ran by a computer instead.

That is hardly a 'consensus' nor will it prevent conflict between organics/synthetics in the MEverse.


[quote][quote]

Even if it wasn't it is still more speculative and rather more absurd than brainwashing. i'd rather go with Occam's razor on this one.

[/quote]

Occams Razor has nothing to do with this. Brainwashing is not a better explanation for how synthesis works than any other explanation. In fact, brainwashing doesn't make any sense at all and leaves a lot of questions:

How does brainwashing assure peace?[/quote]

Actually Occam's razor is perfectly valid. Brainwashing is a simpler explanation which fits the evidence.

it will ensure peace because after being brainwashed, the organics and synthetics hold no animosity towards each other. they are brainwashed into pacificity and aren't aggressive anymore.

[quote]How does brainwashing make sure organics and synthetics co-operate?[/quote]

You do realise that you can brainwash people into doing things right? ergo they brainwash them into helping each other and cooperating. Failing that, simply brainwashing to be tolerant.

[quote]How does brainwashing ensure that no future wars between organics and synthetics errupt?[/quote]

For it to be a lasting solution the brainwashing would have to be permanent.

[quote]How do brainwashed beings still function properly?[/quote]

Look up brainwashinjg in real life please. People who are brainwashed function 100% perfectly as they would otherwise with exception to what they were brainwashed into thinking/doing.

[quote]How would a society with brainwashed individuals not collapse?[/quote]

Question: Why would it? it would be the same as before but without the animosity towards each other.

[quote]If everyone is brainwashed, who is the one controlling the brainwashed people?[/quote]

You don't have to physically control brainwashed people. Once brainwashed from the start they are independent.

[quote]How about newborn babies? Are they brainwashed from their very birth? How?[/quote]

Space magic, like the rest of synthesis is.

[quote]See how absurt "lol it's brainwashing" is? It's a terrible explanation. My explanation, where I use what I know from Deus Ex (2) to explain synthesis, makes much more sense.
[/quote]

It's not absurd necessarily (although synthesis is terrible), you only think so because you don't fully understand what brainwashing actually means. Please, look it up. you might agree afterwards.

Honestly it doesn't make more sense with your explanation.

Modifié par Grimwick, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:08 .