229 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Ryoten wrote...

If laughing at the concept and glowing circuit boards on everyone is "brainwashing", then sign me up for some mega brainwashing!

You do realize with Synthesis you don't get warmonger Wreav if you cured the genophage with only him in charge? 

How is that *not* brainwashing? 

In control you already know Shep's threatened to curbstomp anyone who disturbs the peace into the ground. What's the excuse for Synthesis? 

[Fawx9]

Jamie9 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

The same thought process that resulted in the allied fleets dieing of starvation.

Oh god, this.  So much this.  I remember folks screaming "They HAVE to starve, it's the only logical conclusion!"

Such idiocy.

Please tell me how there was no starvation at the very least on coloney worlds when the relays were destoryed.

And don't tell me they weren't, the all knowing and ever logical catalyst said they would be.

They make food? You know, artifically?

We have replicators now? Cool!

Modifié par Fawx9, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:09 .

[Grimwick]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

legion999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

legion999 wrote...

If Synthesis is to stop all conflict between organics and synthetics it would need to.

I see this a lot. Please explain.

Apologies for the delayed response. If Synthesis doesn't at least alter the minds and opinions of organics and synthetics then they'll still (apparently) wipe each other out. If it doesn't alter their minds at all then it doesn't fix anything. Also there's the issue that the races of the galaxy are now fine with the Reapers despite the horrible things they've done. Then there's Javik who hates everything synthetic yet is fine with synthesis apparently. 

This is seems like a valid line of reasoning. However, how would you explain that people accepted the Reapers in Control as well? No one made the accusation that they're brainwashed by Control.

I don't think it's necessarily shown that they accept the reapers. They could resent them massively but Shepard is simply in control. The inference being that Shepard would 'police' later conflict. Or at least, that's what I garnered.

Besides, who's going to disagree with a hyperadvanced war machine that can talk?

[chuckles471]

Jamie9 wrote...

chuckles471 wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

chuckles471 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Does EDI sound like she's brainwashed in synthesis? Does your crew look brainwashed in synthesis?

Seriously, where does this moronic argument come from anyway? Where does the synthesis ending imply that everyone gets brainwashed? It doesn't.

That no one is caving that husks head in at the end and nobody is trying to blow up the reapers.

I would be doing it.
Also when your eyes are green flashlights, I would say you looked brainwashed.

No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking "What the f*** just happened?!" "The Reapers are leaving?!" "Why do I feel so different?" "Why is that husk now looking at me like it thinking the exact same damn thing?" 

Those are damn well what I would be thinking.

"No you wouldn't, you'd be thinking"
Point proved methinks.

Could you have taken that any more out of context?

A point has been proven, but it's not the one you think it is.

That people think different things and some people would still want to kill all traces of the the reapers, even if they are now friendly.  And the only way the peaceful utopia could happen is if they make people think differently.

[Jamie9]

Ryzaki wrote...

You do realize with Synthesis you don't get warmonger Wreav if you cured the genophage with only him in charge? 

How is that *not* brainwashing? 

In control you already know Shep's threatened to curbstomp anyone who disturbs the peace into the ground. What's the excuse for Synthesis? 

Wreav sees more possibilities as a result of synthesis?

[RadicalDisconnect]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

If laughing at the concept and glowing circuit boards on everyone is "brainwashing", then sign me up for some mega brainwashing!

You do realize with Synthesis you don't get warmonger Wreav if you cured the genophage with only him in charge? 

How is that *not* brainwashing? 

In control you already know Shep's threatened to curbstomp anyone who disturbs the peace into the ground. What's the excuse for Synthesis? 

Good, more substantial evidence. However, what does Wreav do in Control?

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:14 .

[Ryzaki]

Jamie9 wrote...
Wreav sees more possibilities as a result of synthesis?

WREAV? 

WREAV?!? 

And he was about revenge. So what..they decide to get their revenge in a more intelligent way than simply going to war? How exactly is that even still the same Wreav anymore? 

Meanwhile you get Wrex rebuilding in both Destroy and Synthesis.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:16 .

[Jamie9]

chuckles471 wrote...
That people think different things and some people would still want to kill all traces of the the reapers, even if they are now friendly.  And the only way the peaceful utopia could happen is if they make people think differently.

People obviously do think differently post-synthesis, but I feel it's more likely as a result of the new possibilities Synthesis offers, rather than Reaper indoctrination.

[Ryzaki]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

If laughing at the concept and glowing circuit boards on everyone is "brainwashing", then sign me up for some mega brainwashing!

You do realize with Synthesis you don't get warmonger Wreav if you cured the genophage with only him in charge? 

How is that *not* brainwashing? 

In control you already know Shep's threatened to curbstomp anyone who disturbs the peace into the ground. What's the excuse for Synthesis? 

What does Wreav do in control?

Nothing. Just like Synthesis. (But Control flat out has Shepard threatening to destroy anyone who threatens the peace/the many) 

[Jamie9]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...
Wreav sees more possibilities as a result of synthesis?

WREAV? 

WREAV?!? 

And he was about revenge. So what..they decide to get their revenge in a more intelligent way than simply going to war? How exactly is that even still the same Wreav anymore? 

He... changed his mind? It's not that hard to comprehend.

In ME2, Garrus wanted to kill Sidonis, yet you can talk him down.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Ryzaki wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

If laughing at the concept and glowing circuit boards on everyone is "brainwashing", then sign me up for some mega brainwashing!

You do realize with Synthesis you don't get warmonger Wreav if you cured the genophage with only him in charge? 

How is that *not* brainwashing? 

In control you already know Shep's threatened to curbstomp anyone who disturbs the peace into the ground. What's the excuse for Synthesis? 

What does Wreav do in control?

Nothing. Just like Synthesis. (But Control flat out has Shepard threatening to destroy anyone who threatens the peace/the many) 

Well, you could argue that if Reapers are sentient beings capable of free will after synthesis, they threatened to crush Wreav if he tried to pull something like that? Basically the same effect as control, just not Shepard being the reaper voice?

Eh, speculations, and I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:17 .

[Ryzaki]

Jamie9 wrote...
He... changed his mind? It's not that hard to comprehend.

In ME2, Garrus wanted to kill Sidonis, yet you can talk him down.

...

Garrus was always pretty malleable by Shepard. Wreav was not. Wreav's a war mongering idiot (to the point it gets his people destroyed in Destroy when the genophage isn't cured).

Also only Wrex being alive gets you a future city slide with the Krogan. Not Wreav.

@RD: See that makes more sense than Wreav suddenly deciding revenge isn't the answer.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:19 .

[Hackulator]

I would also like to point out one additional thing. In all endings, we are not shown images from particularly far in the future, in fact it seems like what we are seeing is all stuff that happens very soon. That being said, who is to say that Synthesis actually ends up resulting in eternal peace? None of the other endings show any conflict either post-Crucible. The assumption of brainwashing is being lumped on top of an assumption of eternal peace.

[Carlthestrange]

This all comes down to personal opinion really. The Synthesis ending gave no specifications as to what it did to the minds of those it transformed.

Debating it will only lead to flared tempers between fans of ending A, ending B and ending C.

[Jamie9]

Ryzaki wrote...

...

Garrus was always pretty malleable by Shepard. Wreav was not. Wreav's a war mongering idiot (to the point it gets his people destroyed in Destroy when the genophage isn't cured).

@RD: See that makes more sense than Wreav suddenly deciding revenge isn't the answer.

Character inconsistencies. Considering how aware TIM is of indoctrination, and how much trouble he goes to avoid it in the novels, he quite clumsily just hangs that Human Reaper in his base.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...
He... changed his mind? It's not that hard to comprehend.

In ME2, Garrus wanted to kill Sidonis, yet you can talk him down.

...

Garrus was always pretty malleable by Shepard. Wreav was not. Wreav's a war mongering idiot (to the point it gets his people destroyed in Destroy when the genophage isn't cured).

@RD: See that makes more sense than Wreav suddenly deciding revenge isn't the answer.

Well, that will make us believe that only conflicts between synthetics and organics are resolved, but not conflicts between other races. If we can make a really big assumption, will future warfare in synthesis be decided by how many reapers you can persuade to join your side? lolz speculations.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:20 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

If laughing at the concept and glowing circuit boards on everyone is "brainwashing", then sign me up for some mega brainwashing!

You do realize with Synthesis you don't get warmonger Wreav if you cured the genophage with only him in charge? 

How is that *not* brainwashing? 

In control you already know Shep's threatened to curbstomp anyone who disturbs the peace into the ground. What's the excuse for Synthesis? 

Have you thought that the improvement in intelligence and the chance to truly understand other species led to him coming to the conclusion that there are better ways to go about things? Wreav's problem was he was an idiot. An idiot who wants revenge on other species. An example. If I was a racist against African-Americans, say I get found out and then prosecuted. Rightly so. If I am then forced by the law to attend classes(or whatever) to give me greater understanding in WHY I was wrong, is it bad if I come out of those classes now understanding why I was wrong in the first place? Which in turn will lead to me having a different thought process on situations in the future. Is that bad?  How *is* that brainwashing?

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:21 .

[Grimwick]

Hackulator wrote...

I would also like to point out one additional thing. In all endings, we are not shown images from particularly far in the future, in fact it seems like what we are seeing is all stuff that happens very soon. That being said, who is to say that Synthesis actually ends up resulting in eternal peace? None of the other endings show any conflict either post-Crucible. The assumption of brainwashing is being lumped on top of an assumption of eternal peace.

The assumption of brainwashing is based on the premise that Synthesis actually works like the writers claim it does, and the idea that it works in a way that isn't 100% pure disney space magic. 

[WastedHeart]

Imo, characters like Javik would not realistically be happy after synthesis unless brainwashed. Nor would everyone in whole galaxy be happy having Reapers who just spent months slaughtering their loved ones hovering around as their new best friends unless they'd all been brainwashed in some way.

The only other explanation is terrible, terrible one dimensional writing. Which I admit is possible....

Modifié par WastedHeart, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:22 .

[mass perfection]

The Illuminati will make us go crazy.

[Ryzaki]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...
See, that will make us believe that only conflicts between synthetics and organics are resolved, but not conflicts between other races. If we can make a really big assumption, will future warfare in synthesis be decided by how many reapers you can persuade to join your side? lolz speculations.

Through the threat of force yeah. That doesn't make it perfect actually that sounds pretty much like Big Brother Shep in the control endings.

Yes speculations. Ugh.

Jamie9 wrote...
Character inconsistencies. Considering how aware TIM is of indoctrination, and how much trouble he goes to avoid it in the novels, he quite clumsily just hangs that Human Reaper in his base.

I edited to include Wrex has an additional (several actually) positive slides than Wreav. Even with Synthesis. Wreav doesn't focus on rebuilding and has no new planet...why exactly wouldn't he try to take over a new one? He's clearly not inclined to rebuild his own. Actually I thought it was implied TIM went off the deep end before he did that? Besides you can say the same for Kenson. People get stupid. It's quite possible he didn't believe it capable of indoctrination yet.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:25 .

[Baronesa]

mass perfection wrote...

The Illuminati will make us go crazy.

hush... we are not that bad...

[Ageless Face]

I swear, the amount of ways people are trying to find just to hate synthesis is getting ridiculous. It's a question of ethics, nothing more. That alone is enough to make you think twice about picking it. You don't need to create false theories about synthesis to hate it.

EDI didn't sound brainwashed. The reapers, by the epilouge, are HELPING people. They don't demand people to warship them, people don't ascend, people are not harvested. Joker and EDI hugging each other was enough to tell us they are still the same people they once were, they are still individuals.

Synthesis doesn't brainwash anyone. It's got enough problems already.

[Ryzaki]

Welsh Inferno wrote...
Have you thought that the improvement in intelligence and the chance to truly understand other species led to him coming to the conclusion that there are better ways to go about things? Wreav's problem was he was an idiot. An idiot who wants revenge on other species. An example. If I was a racist against African-Americans, say I get found out and then prosecuted. Rightly so. If I am then forced by the law to attend classes(or whatever) to give me greater understanding in WHY I was wrong, is it bad if I come out of those classes now understanding why I was wrong in the first place? Which in turn will lead to me having a different thought process on situations in the future. Is that bad?  How *is* that brainwashing?

Which led to a personality shift. He was trained that it was wrong. His personality was still changed. Postively but still changed. If you were forced to do it and change your mind yeah I'd see it as brainwashing. Not bad brainwashing but brainwashing.

Plus...Javik. Hates all synthetics. Had his friends and family slaughtered by the Reapers. Somehow isn't flipping his sh** over Synthesis.

How much of a personality change do you need before you consider the person no longer the same? Because I certainly don't see calm half breed Javik as being the same as the Javik who main reaction to synthetics were "airlock!" 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:27 .

[Tom Lehrer]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

brainwashing is the only valid method of making synthesis work - otherwise it is even more nonsense piled on nonsense.

Not true.

Justified through space magic?

They also look brainwashed to me, they don't have any different opinions.

Are you talking about the Deus Ex 2 synthesis ending?

They look brainwashed to you, but they aren't. Each human still has his own mind and opinions in synthesis. It's just that now everyone is linked together in one giant transhuman connection, allowing everyone to perfectly understand everyone else. Your needs become the needs of many. Your wishes become understandable to everyone. Your opinions and desires will be heard and understood by everyone. A perfect democracy is possible, because decisions will be made through consensus, similar to how the geth work.

So this works by taking every humans humanity and turning them into nameless number in a massive system that cares nothing for the indivdual or minority groups?