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Does Synthesis brainwash everyone?


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#101
Welsh Inferno

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HagarIshay wrote...

I swear, the amount of ways people are trying to find just to hate synthesis is getting ridiculous. It's a question of ethics, nothing more. That alone is enough to make you think twice about picking it. You don't need to create false theories about synthesis to hate it.

EDI didn't sound brainwashed. The reapers, by the epilouge, are HELPING people. They don't demand people to warship them, people don't ascend, people are not harvested. Joker and EDI hugging each other was enough to tell us they are still the same people they once were, they are still individuals.

Synthesis doesn't brainwash anyone. It's got enough problems already.


Agreed.

I'd like to say on top of that as well that. In no way would it be BioWare's intention to write what they consider the best ending to have such detestable elements such as people being brainwashed zombies. Its inconceivable.

#102
Jamie9

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Ryzaki wrote...
I edited to include Wrex has an additional (several actually) positive
slides than Wreav. Even with Synthesis. Wreav doesn't focus on
rebuilding and has no new planet...why exactly wouldn't he try to take
over a new one? He's clearly not inclined to rebuild his own.

Actually I thought it was implied TIM went off the deep end before he did that? Besides you can say the same for Kenson. People get stupid. It's quite possible he didn't believe it capable of indoctrination yet.


Wrex has those Tuchanka slides whereas Wreav does not? Interesting.

What would Wreav be doing if not on Tuchanka and not trying to dominate other races?

TIM should've known. He knew that the Cerberus team would become indoctrinated if they stayed aboard the Derelict Reaper.

#103
RadicalDisconnect

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Jamie9 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I edited to include Wrex has an additional (several actually) positive
slides than Wreav. Even with Synthesis. Wreav doesn't focus on
rebuilding and has no new planet...why exactly wouldn't he try to take
over a new one? He's clearly not inclined to rebuild his own.

Actually I thought it was implied TIM went off the deep end before he did that? Besides you can say the same for Kenson. People get stupid. It's quite possible he didn't believe it capable of indoctrination yet.


Wrex has those Tuchanka slides whereas Wreav does not? Interesting.

What would Wreav be doing if not on Tuchanka and not trying to dominate other races?

TIM should've known. He knew that the Cerberus team would become indoctrinated if they stayed aboard the Derelict Reaper.


Oops, double post.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:29 .


#104
RadicalDisconnect

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Jamie9 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I edited to include Wrex has an additional (several actually) positive
slides than Wreav. Even with Synthesis. Wreav doesn't focus on
rebuilding and has no new planet...why exactly wouldn't he try to take
over a new one? He's clearly not inclined to rebuild his own.

Actually I thought it was implied TIM went off the deep end before he did that? Besides you can say the same for Kenson. People get stupid. It's quite possible he didn't believe it capable of indoctrination yet.


Wrex has those Tuchanka slides whereas Wreav does not? Interesting.

What would Wreav be doing if not on Tuchanka and not trying to dominate other races?

TIM should've known. He knew that the Cerberus team would become indoctrinated if they stayed aboard the Derelict Reaper.


Wreav trying to dominate his own people? Since synthesis allowed other krogans to see that Wreav was bull****ting about being the one who cured the genophage?

*shrugs*

#105
Ryzaki

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Jamie9 wrote...
Wrex has those Tuchanka slides whereas Wreav does not? Interesting.

What would Wreav be doing if not on Tuchanka and not trying to dominate other races?

TIM should've known. He knew that the Cerberus team would become indoctrinated if they stayed aboard the Derelict Reaper.


Yup. This one is Wrex exclusive:

Posted Image

And there's no Wreav variant for this one: 

Posted Image

Nothing. You don't see him doing anything else. He shows no personality towards anything other than wanting to show the glory of the Krogan empire. He's not doing that militarily...and not doing it by improving technology. It doesn't even sound like Wreav anymore to me.

Yet he still let them go there. He takes stupid risks to get results. Probably thought even if he did get indoctrinated it'd be worth it for the data (or hell he could've already been indoctrinated before he put it in his base.) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:30 .


#106
Welsh Inferno

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Ryzaki wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...
Have you thought that the improvement in intelligence and the chance to truly understand other species led to him coming to the conclusion that there are better ways to go about things? Wreav's problem was he was an idiot. An idiot who wants revenge on other species. An example. If I was a racist against African-Americans, say I get found out and then prosecuted. Rightly so. If I am then forced by the law to attend classes(or whatever) to give me greater understanding in WHY I was wrong, is it bad if I come out of those classes now understanding why I was wrong in the first place? Which in turn will lead to me having a different thought process on situations in the future. Is that bad?  How *is* that brainwashing?


Which led to a personality shift. He was trained that it was wrong. His personality was still changed. Postively but still changed. If you were forced to do it and change your mind yeah I'd see it as brainwashing. Not bad brainwashing but brainwashing.


Trained? My ass. My example also goes the other way too. The theoretical me may also come out of the classes the same as before, infact his racist crazy ass may resent the fact that he was put through that or perhaps he might just learn to hide it better. There's a huge number of possibilities here. The fact that Wreav decided to choose a better path is but one he could of chose. 

I just remembered too. Were basing this off of a couple of slides with no actual words with the intent of those in them unknowable for the most part..

Saw Javik edit: To be honest we see very little about the squaddies. Javik will be given the same chance to understand fully. But as you say it is unlikely he will like it and so I expect him to do what he said on Earth. Go to the graves of his previous squad and shoot himself.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:33 .


#107
RadicalDisconnect

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Ryzaki wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...
Wrex has those Tuchanka slides whereas Wreav does not? Interesting.

What would Wreav be doing if not on Tuchanka and not trying to dominate other races?

TIM should've known. He knew that the Cerberus team would become indoctrinated if they stayed aboard the Derelict Reaper.


Yup. This one is Wrex exclusive:

Posted Image

And there's no Wreav variant for this one: 

Posted Image

Nothing. You don't see him doing anything else. He shows no personality towards anything other than wanting to show the glory of the Krogan empire. He's not doing that militarily...and not doing it by improving technology. It doesn't even sound like Wreav anymore to me.

Yet he still let them go there. He takes stupid risks to get results. Probably thought even if he did get indoctrinated it'd be worth it for the data (or hell he could've already been indoctrinated before he put it in his base.) 


<speculation_mode>

Just because the free-willed Reapers threatened to crush Wreav if he got out of hand doesn't mean he'll bother trying to actually make things better. He'll probably hang out in Afterlife and get drunk, or get assassinated by other krogans who saw through his genophage cure bullcrap.

</speculation_mode>

Or, speculate that he's brainwashed. Didn't say you can't believe it, just that I don't believe it.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:40 .


#108
Hackulator

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Grimwick wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

I would also like to point out one additional thing. In all endings, we are not shown images from particularly far in the future, in fact it seems like what we are seeing is all stuff that happens very soon. That being said, who is to say that Synthesis actually ends up resulting in eternal peace? None of the other endings show any conflict either post-Crucible. The assumption of brainwashing is being lumped on top of an assumption of eternal peace.


The assumption of brainwashing is based on the premise that Synthesis actually works like the writers claim it does, and the idea that it works in a way that isn't 100% pure disney space magic. :wizard:


Ok, I guess I need to say this every time someone talks disparagingly about "Space Magic" until you people get it through your heads. EVERYTHING IN MASS EFFECT IS FRICKING SPACE MAGIC. Biotics are Space Magic. The Reapers are Space Magic. The Mass Relays are Space Magic. FTL Drives are Space magic. The Asari's breeding practices are Space Magic. SHEPARD'S RESURRECTION IS SPACE MAGIC. The fact that everyone speaks English is Space Magic.

If you don't like Space Magic, you don't like Mass Effect.

#109
Ryzaki

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Welsh Inferno wrote...
Trained? My ass. My example also goes the other way too. The theoretical me may also come out of the classes the same as before, infact his racist crazy ass may resent the fact that he was put through that or perhaps he might just learn to hide it better. There's a huge number of possibilities here. The fact that Wreav decided to choose a better path is but one he could of chose. 

I just remembered too. Were basing this off of a couple of slides with no actual words with the intent of those in them unknowable for the most part..


*shrugs* If you force knowledge and understanding on someone (and they don't reach it on their own) they've been trained. *Meh snipped because debating that would be futile.

Not to mention...where's the anger at the Reapers? Control fine they're helping and Psycho Shepard threatened to crush any who threatened the greater good. But Synthesis? Where they can flat out ask the Reapers WTF did they do this? And realize it was off some ridculous logic? That their friends and families died for such a reason? Unless they're indoctrinated to believe that was the right choice...I don't see why there's not a war over that.

That is also true. But the theoritical you wasn't modified on a genetic level . (And this is assuming Synthesis imparts intelligence and understanding which brings out a whole new level of horror. Husks and crap are intelligent now? Jeez. That blows.)

But you don't know that he chose a better path. For all we know he could've been brainwashed and it just stopped him from committing war. And that's it. That's was the point of it.

of course. Speculations! :wizard:

Re re Javik edit: And meanwhile he respectfully goes to Shep's grave? Shep who not only spit on all the work and sacrifices his cycle did but modified him against his will? Yeah...uh...that sounds nothing like Javik. :unsure: He might respect control but Synthesis? Not seeing it. At all. Not even remotely.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:44 .


#110
The Heretic of Time

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Grimwick wrote...

Ok:
1:52 - 'Makes everybody's mind equal.'

He then goes on to ignore the question asked about how it works. Looks like control of the brain to me.


Wrong. He does explain how it works.

Everyone will be hooked up to Helios network. This networks allows for direct communication of the minds between all humans and Helios. All cognitive capacity will become available to all human beings. You will become infinetely smarter and you'll gain infinetely more knowledge. All the knowledge of humanity will be available to everyone.



2:47 - 'Once every mind has been enhanced.' - Who decides what is an enhancement? Why are they changing people's brains?


He he means there is the enhancement of our DNA to accept nanotechnological augmentations, which allows the Helios merger to complete and the transhuman Helios network to be established. So everyone's DNA needs to be enhanced first. After that, all human minds can be connected to the Helios network, and humanity will be ascended to transhumanism. That's how it works in Deus Ex and I assume synthesis in Mass Effects works similar.

Changing people's brains to match your vision is what brainwashing is. This looks exactly like that.


Like I said, nobodies brains are enhanced, only their DNA, so nanotechnological augmentations is possible for everyone and not only a selected few humans with the proper DNA.


Furthermore he gives no explanation of how such a system actually works. Only loose and waffly talk about how everyone will benefit. In reality it appears that it's a system like our governements today - but being ran by a computer instead.


Almost. The Helios A.I. will indeed replace all governmental functions, but the Helios A.I. will recieve input from all human minds and it's processes will be adapter accordingly. A true democracy will be born, where by merely thinking something, you make yourself heard and your opinions and desires will be taken in consideration by Helios.

Helios will act like the mind of God. Not forcing us, but merely listening to us and trying to fill our needs and fullfill our wishes.

That is hardly a 'consensus' nor will it prevent conflict between organics/synthetics in the MEverse.


It is the most perfect consensus possible and it will most certainly prevent conflict between organics and synthetics, of both are hooked up to  transpecies neural network similar to the Helios network in Deus Ex.


Actually Occam's razor is perfectly valid. Brainwashing is a simpler explanation which fits the evidence.


It's not a simpler explanation.

And what evidence? What evidence are you talking about? There is no evidence for brainwashing, merely speculation on your part.
Speculation and wild guesses =/= evidence, lol! :wizard:



it will ensure peace because after being brainwashed, the organics and synthetics hold no animosity towards each other. they are brainwashed into pacificity and aren't aggressive anymore.


Brainwashed by who? And who controls these individuals after they're brainwashed? And what evidence do you have to support this wild claim? EDI most certainly did not seem brainwashed in the synthesis ending, nor did any other crewmember of the Normandy look brainwashed.


Look up brainwashinjg in real life please. People who are brainwashed function 100% perfectly as they would otherwise with exception to what they were brainwashed into thinking/doing.


Not true. Brainwashed people are the most intolerant people I've ever met. When you're brainwashed, you're no longer open-minded nor tolerant. Brainwashing does not end conflict, it causes conflict.

Also, brainwashed people refuse to learn. They only seek confort in the ideals they so strongly believe in. If we look at EDI, she tells us that now, after synthesis, the technological advancements of the galaxy are bigger than ever before. Such a thing would not happen if the entire galaxy was indeed brainwashed.

And again, one has to ask: Who brainwashed them and who controls the brainwashing?


You don't have to physically control brainwashed people. Once brainwashed from the start they are independent.


Not true. In real-life, if you do have a cult and you don't actively keep brainwashing and controlling your followers on a daily basis, your followers will eventually "wake up" and realize that they have been brainwashed all the time.

The effects of brainwashing will slowly disappear, unless someone or something actively keeps brainwashing the population.


It's not absurd necessarily (although synthesis is terrible), you only think so because you don't fully understand what brainwashing actually means. Please, look it up. you might agree afterwards.


I know perfectly well what brainwashing is, perhaps better than you do. You assume that brainwashing actively wipes the mind of an individual clean of ideologies and ideas and replaces it's mind with new ideologies and ideas. Such a thing is not possible (in real-life) and that's not how brainwashing works (in real-life).

In real-life, in order to brainwash a person and keep him brainwashed, you need to keep tight control over that person. Without that control, the brainwashing effects will eventually work out and the individual will revert back to it's previous state before he was brainwashed.

Brainwashing is no different from indoctrination really. Indoctrination was caused and controlled by the reapers. Once the reapers are gone, the indoctrination effect works out.

So again, I have to ask, who causes the indoctrination in synthesis, who keeps the indoctrination active and who is in control of the indoctrinated individuals?

#111
Ryzaki

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RadicalDisconnect wrote...
<speculation_mode>

Just because the free-willed Reapers threatened to crush Wreav if he got out of hand doesn't mean he'll bother trying to actually make things better. He'll probably hang out in Afterlife and get drunk, or get assassinated by other krogans who saw through his genophage cure bullcrap.

</speculation_mode>

Or, speculate that he's brainwashed. Did say you can't believe it, just that I don't believe it.


LOL that does sound good. (But would him dying then vary on if Shep cured the genophage?)

Oh I know. YMMV. Mine happens to be that's it's brainwashing.

#112
RadicalDisconnect

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See, it's fine if you believe that people in synthesis is brainwashed, but that is never explicitly stated in the ending, and you shouldn't force that upon others to as a piece solid evidence against synthesis. As someone earlier said, synthesis already has enough problems, which is why I didn't chose it.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:45 .


#113
The Heretic of Time

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Tom Lehrer wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Are you talking about the Deus Ex 2 synthesis ending?

They look brainwashed to you, but they aren't. Each human still has his own mind and opinions in synthesis. It's just that now everyone is linked together in one giant transhuman connection, allowing everyone to perfectly understand everyone else. Your needs become the needs of many. Your wishes become understandable to everyone. Your opinions and desires will be heard and understood by everyone. A perfect democracy is possible, because decisions will be made through consensus, similar to how the geth work.


So this works by taking every humans humanity and turning them into nameless number in a massive system that cares nothing for the indivdual or minority groups?


No. Where the hell did you get that idea? What I just explained is the complete opposite of "turning them into nameless number in a massive system that cares nothing for the indivdual".

#114
Ryzaki

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RadicalDisconnect wrote...

See, it's fine if you believe that people in synthesis is brainwashed, but that is never explicitly stated in the ending, and you shouldn't force that upon others to as a solid evidence against synthesis. As someone earlier said, synthesis already has enough problems, which is why I didn't chose it.


Eh I don't force it on anyone. I see it as brainwashing. Javik to me is far more than enough proof. Justifying it as saying he's more intelligent now doesn't do anything but make that belief stronger since clearly Synthesis did something to his brain, personality and thought process.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:46 .


#115
Welsh Inferno

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Ryzaki wrote...

*shrugs* If you force knowledge and understanding on someone (and they don't reach it on their own) they've been trained. We're all trained. Just in different ways. Synthesis to me is a particularly obnoxious way of doing it.

That is also true. But the theoritical you wasn't modified on a genetic level . (And this is assuming Synthesis imparts intelligence and understanding which brings out a whole new level of horror. Husks and crap are intelligent now? Jeez. That blows.)

But you don't know that he chose a better path. For all we know he could've been brainwashed and it just stopped him from committing war. And that's it. That's was the point of it.

of course. Speculations! :wizard:

Re re Javik edit: And meanwhile he respectfully goes to Shep's grave? Shep who not only spit on all the work and sacrifices his cycle did but modified him against his will? Yeah...uh...that sounds nothing like Javik. :unsure: He might respect control but Synthesis? Not seeing it. At all. Not even remotely.


Forcing knowledge and understanding doesn't mean they have to use it, or accept it. As you say we are all trained, kids are forced to go to school(for the most part) and they/we are not brainwashed as a result of learning and understanding new concepts.

Your second paragraph shows your problem with it stems on the ethical issue. Something being ethically bad to implement does not mean the results are ethically bad. But yes, it is definately wrong on a moral level to force change on all.

I know that he chose something. He has free reign on what he wants to do with the information he now has available. Its his choice. Either he understands and sympathyzes or he doesn't. We don't know as the slides do not clarify. 

That's not what I meant about Javik. He doesn't go to the grave of Shepard. In dialogue after looking into the shard and seeing all of is previous squad/friends die again. He then says on Earth that after this is over he will go to their graves and join them. So I think regardless of the ending that is what he will do.

Anger at the Reapers part: I'm not arguing that all would be happy with them or that we'd all live with them happy happy happy. Due to Synthesis people would know the reasoning behind them, that they were controlled etc. So some would deem all the knowledge they bring from billions of years of species as acceptable, some would not. I do personally think that BioWare made all the endings but Synthesis in particluar too rosey. They SHOULD have showed negatives along side the positives of ALL the endings. But alas they didn't. 

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:51 .


#116
djarlaks10

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Yeah, even if ain't stated that everyone is brainwashed, I think that it is exactly what happened. I mean, you were fighting against Reapers and then you are somehow perfectly fine with Harbringer reading stories to kids and having John the husk as your neighbour.

#117
Ryzaki

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Welsh Inferno wrote...
Forcing knowledge and understanding doesn't mean they have to use it, or accept it. As you say we are all trained, kids are forced to go to school(for the most part) and they/we are not brainwashed as a result of learning and understanding new concepts.


Exactly which is why I believe Wreav was brainwashed. He's too warmongering in my belief. It's obviously YMMV though .

Your second paragraph shows your problem with it stems on the ethical issue. Something being ethically bad to implement does not mean the results are ethically bad. But yes, it is definately wrong on a moral level to force change on all.

I know that he chose something. He has free reign on what he wants to do with the information he now has available. Its his choice. Either he understands and sympathyzes or he doesn't. We don't know as the slides do not clarify.


First paragraph I have nothing to really say against.

2nd true enough and I choose to see that as proof of brainwashing. You don't.

That's not what I meant about Javik. He doesn't go to the grave of Shepard. In dialogue after looking into the shard and seeing all of is previous squad/friends die again. He then says on Earth that after this is over he will go to their graves and join them. So I think regardless of the ending that is what he will do.


He attends Shep's memorial ceremony. That alone is OOC enough for me to consider it brainwashing. He's calm not raging not glaring and he's there. It doesn't seem IC at all for Javik to accept synthetics (let alone those that destroyed his people and who they died trying to destroy) as part of him. At all. Not even remotely. Not given his constantly expressed feelings on Synthetics beforehand and his final words to Shepard. Flushing all that sacrifice and the building of the Crucible to appease the Reapers? Javik would flip his s***.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:52 .


#118
The Heretic of Time

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Ryzaki wrote...

Eh I don't force it on anyone. I see it as brainwashing. Javik to me is far more than enough proof. Justifying it as saying he's more intelligent now doesn't do anything but make that belief stronger since clearly Synthesis did something to his brain, personality and thought process.


Euh, what about Javik? What are we talking about here? Did I miss something?

#119
Jamie9

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Ryzaki wrote...

He attends Shep's memorial ceremony. That alone is OOC enough for me to consider it brainwashing. He's calm not raging not glaring and he's there. It doesn't seem IC at all for Javik to accept the beings that destroyed his people (and who they died trying to destroy) as part of him. At all. Not even remotely.


I was under the impression that that scene took place before the Normandy took off from Gilligan's Planet. So Javik wouldn't have gone to the planet where his buddy's died yet.

#120
Jeb231

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In retro-respect, Synthesis doesn't seem such a bad choice since people who don't like it can always kill themselves.

At least they have a choice.

Modifié par Jeb231, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:52 .


#121
RadicalDisconnect

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djarlaks10 wrote...

Yeah, even if ain't stated that everyone is brainwashed, I think that it is exactly what happened. I mean, you were fighting against Reapers and then you are somehow perfectly fine with Harbringer reading stories to kids and having John the husk as your neighbour.


Try reading previous posts before making the same arguments. It's not fun writing out the same counter-arguments multiple times. <_<

For the husk argument, I tried addressing it in this thread that no one paid attention to.
Husk in Synthesis -- a projection/extension of the reaper's mind?

The gist of it is that the husks are simply extensions of a reaper's mind, and it is looking at the human soldiers and at itself, surprised at the change, and maybe surprised that it's no longer under the will of the Catalyst (this part is my speculation).

#122
Ryzaki

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Jamie9 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

He attends Shep's memorial ceremony. That alone is OOC enough for me to consider it brainwashing. He's calm not raging not glaring and he's there. It doesn't seem IC at all for Javik to accept the beings that destroyed his people (and who they died trying to destroy) as part of him. At all. Not even remotely.


I was under the impression that that scene took place before the Normandy took off from Gilligan's Planet. So Javik wouldn't have gone to the planet where his buddy's died yet.


Again he's still bowing his head in respect for the person whom turned him into a half synthetic. I just spent a game dragging Javik around everywhere and being besties. It's just...no I don't see it at all. It's not him anymore.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Euh, what about Javik? What are we talking about here? Did I miss something?


Synthesis ending. Javik's rather composed attitude at Shep's memorial.

#123
Jamie9

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Jeb231 wrote...

In retro-respect, Synthesis doesn't seem such a bad choice since people who don't like it can always kill themselves.

At least they have a choice.


Or they can just not use the synthetic parts. Pretty much all synthetic actions need to be "activated". You don't have to use them.

#124
Bill Casey

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Does EDI sound like she's brainwashed in synthesis?

Yes...

#125
djarlaks10

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RadicalDisconnect wrote...

djarlaks10 wrote...

Yeah, even if ain't stated that everyone is brainwashed, I think that it is exactly what happened. I mean, you were fighting against Reapers and then you are somehow perfectly fine with Harbringer reading stories to kids and having John the husk as your neighbour.


Try reading previous posts before making the same arguments. It's not fun writing out the same counter-arguments multiple times. <_<

For the husk argument, I tried addressing it in this thread that no one paid attention to.
Husk in Synthesis -- a projection/extension of the reaper's mind?

The gist of it is that the husks are simply extensions of a reaper's mind, and it is looking at the human soldiers and at itself, surprised at the change, and maybe surprised that it's no longer under the will of the Catalyst (this part is my speculation).

Well, sometimes I don't have time to read the entire thread, so I just quickly look through it and make a reply. Oh, and your link is broken.