861 réponses à ce sujet

[Eluril]

JShepppp wrote...

I think the main problem is not with the ending, its supporters, or its ideals, but those who say that it is the "right" ending and try to force their view on everyone else because they are "clearly" right and they're the only ones who understand the "true" mass effect themes.

Just saying.

Totally agree. I very much respect and understand the Refusal supporters. I just disagree with them. For my main Renegade Shepard Destroying the Reapers has an acceptable casualty of destroying synthetics. To me that is a better outcome than refusing and simply having everyone (synthetic and organic) die.

And for my paragon the only acceptable outcomes are synthesis or control (haven't decided which is preferable yet as I haven't watched paragon control), because they spare the most lives of all the endings.

[Esquin]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Esquin wrote...

Without using anything that happens in after your final choice i'd like you to prove that what the catalyst tells you about the crucible is the truth. Keeping in mind that nothing the catalyst says can be trusted since it is a reaper.

Go.

I never said that I trusted the Catalyst nor think what it was saying was true. I used the Crucible on a gamble. Did you even read my post? It was either the Catalyst is lying, in which we would lose. Or it was telling the truth, in which we would win. 50% chance.

Refusal is stepping away from that, in which you would have a 0% chance of winning since beating the Reapers can't be done conventionally.

They can be. I for one am curious as to what would happen is we just destroy the citadel. There's a damn good chance that it would have a major impact on reaper forces. And even if it doesn't I for one would rather give the next cycle a chance (and a damn good one if they're not idiots about it). Because the fact of it is that if we listen to the crucible the chances of us lossing are very high (no hindsight. Just to remind you.) But the difference is in how we loss. For all we know using the crucible will ruin any hope we have to giving victory to the next cycle.

[Fauxnormal]

Ryzaki wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Okay I'm getting really irritated.

First Refuse isn't GIVING UP. It's deciding not to use the Crucible. If you're too stupid to tell the difference please STFU your ignorance is painful.

You can see it as stupid and idiotic sure whatever.

It however doesn't equal giving up. It equals taking a crazy gamble (and losing) but Shep DOES try to defy the Reapers (save BW deciding to say FU and have Shep stand there like a chump) 

Second enough with the goddamn Hitler comparisons.

Refuse is giving up and killing everyone.

Period.

You can bleet that to the end of time. Doesn't make it anymore true.

You can bleet that to the end of time. Doesn't make it any less true.

But if it makes you feel better about destorying every thing and everyone, sure. Go right on ahead.

[Ryzaki]

Esquin wrote...
My Shepard called the Normandy. Told them that the crucible is a trap and that the AI controlling the reapers is based in the citadel.

The next cycle then destroyed the citadel, never built the crucible, and met the Reaper fleet at the edge of the galaxy with a fleet of dreadnaughts armed with advanced thanix cannons. All udner the instruction of the children of our Asari lifeboat that we sent into the next cycle.

Mine simply is that they damaged the Citadel (since the damn thing isn't impentrable when it's open) but still got defeated by the Reapers. Some survivors managed to make Ilos like planets (and depending on Shep's EMS) were either found by the Reapers or found by other species like the Raloi and the Yahg.

With low EMS next cycle has to use the Crucible and picks R. With high EMS? Next cycle has no need to use Crucible and instead destroys the Citadel throwing the Reapers into disarray after that they wipe the floor with the remaints.

[Esquin]

Eluril wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

I think the main problem is not with the ending, its supporters, or its ideals, but those who say that it is the "right" ending and try to force their view on everyone else because they are "clearly" right and they're the only ones who understand the "true" mass effect themes.

Just saying.

Totally agree. I very much respect and understand the Refusal supporters. I just disagree with them. For my main Renegade Shepard Destroying the Reapers has an acceptable casualty of destroying synthetics. To me that is a better outcome than refusing and simply having everyone (synthetic and organic) die.

And for my paragon the only acceptable outcomes are synthesis or control (haven't decided which is preferable yet as I haven't watched paragon control), because they spare the most lives of all the endings.

I 100% agree. Destoying the reapers is totally worth the lives of the Geth. That's not even a debate.

My issue is that when presented with that choice there really wouldn't be any reason to believe that it was legit.

[Ryzaki]

Fauxnormal wrote...

You can bleet that to the end of time. Doesn't make it any less true.

But if it makes you feel better about destorying every thing and everyone, sure. Go right on ahead.

Back at you buddy.

But if it makes you feel morally superior to someone else by all means. Continue.

[Master_Smurf]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And that is, in fact, what Shepard does and what Shepard's choice is. Like it or not.

No it's not. The screen goes to black. For all you know Shep could decide to stand tall after that and start giving orders.

Like it or not.

Give orders to who?

To do what?

To enjoy the last few minutes of your existence before the Reaper fleet or better yet HORDE wipes all of you out, even if the get out of Sol, who is waiting at nearly all the other relays!!!!

Wishful thinking my frend

[Fauxnormal]

Oh, how cute! The Refuse people actually have to headcannon better endings!

[Eluril]

It is also heavily implied that the future cycle was able to perfect the Crucible (meaning having it target and destroy just the Reapers, leaving everything else intact.) To me the question Refusers answer positively that I answer negatively is "Is losing everything we (civilization) have now to beat them perfectly in the future acceptable?"

[babachewie]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Esquin wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...



Oh my god. You are just contradicting yourself.

Replace Nixon with Shepard, Shepard believes in refusal, the rest of the people in the galaxy doesn't. Yet, you want to make that decision for them? Seriously man?

But you think they'd agree to having their biology fundamentally altered to turn them into an entierly new form of life?

Grow up.

The only option is refusal because it's the only option where we know the results. We have no idea what the crucible will do except that on some level it is under the control of the reapers. I personally don't trust the reapers and I don't want to give them another way to control us.

Do you trust the reapers?

Yeah, the result is that we lose and the whole galaxy is doomed. The cycles continue in refusal. I would take a chance and shoot the tube.

Knowing that you will either fail or commit genocide, I'm sure hitler is smiling upon you.

The sign of a desperate debater when they start using hitler. Fox News would be proud.

The Hitler was just a touch, but I was right, You either fail or commit Genocide, so how am i wrong?

You're not worng. You either fail or commit Genocide....or sacrifce youself for the two choices. either one would be better than total defeat. You killed the entire galaxy with the knowledge you had knowing there was  no hope if you paid enough attention to the game and what the characters were saying. Sacrifices will be made just ask commander shepard. 

Modifié par babachewie, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:07 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To whom? From where? Even if it's not giving up on the war entirely, it's giving up any hope of doing anything useful. It's willful denial of every bit of knowledge you've thus far accumulated.

*shrugs* 

Maybe it is.

Doesn't make it self-righteous.

It's a perfectly valid choice. Like your garbage mass body violation synthesis.

Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Again your logic is that the right ending is the one that lets you live, why didn't you choose control then?

[Ryzaki]

Fauxnormal wrote...
Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Here's a tip: They might be brainwashed tranquil slaves that "living" is something their true selves might be horrified and prefer death with.

Cute though! 

For the record I'm well aware Xili's preferred ending is Synthesis. Had nothing to do with it being popular. But your butthurt is very obvious!

[Fauxnormal]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]Fauxnormal wrote...

You can bleet that to the end of time. Doesn't make it any less true.

But if it makes you feel better about destorying every thing and everyone, sure. Go right on ahead.

[/quote]

Back at you buddy.

But if it makes you feel morally superior to someone else by all means. Continue.

[/quote

awww, butthurt kid is butthurt.

You blew up everyone, princess. There's no reason you can ever offer me that will make that okay.

[ATLAS1192]

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

No see that's the thing. The only reason to assume the crucible is legit is because a REAPER tells you it is. Why on earth would you trust anything that a reaper says to you?

That's what this comes down to. In that moment, standing there with the catalyst you have no reason at all to believe that anything it is saying is the truth. It admits to being a reaper. There is no reason to believe that the options it offers are legitimate. Or that anything it tells you about those options is the truth. In fact it's more likely that it's lying to you and this is another manipulation so that the reapers can control you. 

The only logial option is to walk away from what is obviously a trap. Forget what happens in the endings. You don't get to make chocies using hind sight. There, in that moment, the only real option is to assume that the crucible is a reaper trap. 

What about when everyone found out that the Relays and Citadel were created by Reapers? Did everyone just kind of STOP using them? No. That point is now moot. Try again.

There is a big difference between using forms of transport constructed by the reapers and changing the nature of all life in the galaxy based on their word. 

We're at war here. Using the relays is like Americans using German roads in WW2. 

Using the crucible is like letting Hitler tell you what your options are for winning the war and then doing exactly what he tells you. All the time believing that suddenly he'd turned into some kind of benevolent individual who loves you.

Are we allowing Hitler into ending arguments now? How can I defend myself against these comparisons?

It's an accurate comparison. We're talking about a group who want's to commit galactic genocide and you're about to do exactly what they tell you to do and trust that they suddenly have your best interests at heart. The fact that you can't present any reasons why you could trust the catalyst say's it all really.

You want reasons? Fair enough. The Catalyst himself says that his "solution" wouldn't work anymore, due to your arrival. He needs you to make a new solution (BGR). If he needs you to make a new solution, why would he BS you? Technically, if you Refuse, you are doing exactly what he (supposedly) wanted, he used reverse psychology to manipulate you into letting him continue.

[Esquin]

Eluril wrote...

It is also heavily implied that the future cycle was able to perfect the Crucible (meaning having it target and destroy just the Reapers, leaving everything else intact.) To me the question Refusers answer positively that I answer negatively is "Is losing everything we (civilization) have now to beat them perfectly in the future acceptable?"

That isn't the question.

The question is "Can we trust that the choices being offered are for real. Or are they a reaper trap."

The answer is that they have to be assumed to be a reaper trap. 

[Khajiit Jzargo]

babachewie wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Esquin wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...



Oh my god. You are just contradicting yourself.

Replace Nixon with Shepard, Shepard believes in refusal, the rest of the people in the galaxy doesn't. Yet, you want to make that decision for them? Seriously man?

But you think they'd agree to having their biology fundamentally altered to turn them into an entierly new form of life?

Grow up.

The only option is refusal because it's the only option where we know the results. We have no idea what the crucible will do except that on some level it is under the control of the reapers. I personally don't trust the reapers and I don't want to give them another way to control us.

Do you trust the reapers?

Yeah, the result is that we lose and the whole galaxy is doomed. The cycles continue in refusal. I would take a chance and shoot the tube.

Knowing that you will either fail or commit genocide, I'm sure hitler is smiling upon you.

The sign of a desperate debater when they start using hitler. Fox News would be proud.

The Hitler was just a touch, but I was right, You either fail or commit Genocide, so how am i wrong?

You're not worng. You either fail or commit Genocide....or sacrifce youself for the two choices. either one would be better than total defeat. You killed the entire galaxy with the knowledge you had you had no hope if you paid enough attention to the game and what the characters were saying. Sacrifices will be made just ask commander shepard. 

So you want to commit Genocide, and war crimes in order to win? I knew their are sacrifices, but not genocide, I understand though, its not a sacrifice its complete genocide of 1.5 billions geth, but you call it a sacrifice? right?

[Master_Smurf]

The Catalyst isnt the enemy, you just think he is because you arent privileged to the scope of the conflict.

Also if you want to look at it in terms of battle and enemies look at it this way, if you are fighting with someone and suddenly both of you see an even bigger threat, you call a truce and look for a solution to end the immediate threat - from there you form a peace or you go back to fighting but that is once the bigger threat has been removed.

The Catalyst is only doing what it thinks is right until Shep proves (dont ask meask BW, I guess uniting the galaxy yada yada) that there may be a better way.

[Ryzaki]

Master_Smurf wrote...
Give orders to who?

To do what?

To enjoy the last few minutes of your existence before the Reaper fleet or better yet HORDE wipes all of you out, even if the get out of Sol, who is waiting at nearly all the other relays!!!!

Wishful thinking my frend

Hackett. You know the person who communicated with him not even five minutes ago? 

To attempt to destroy the citadel. The hivemi nd of the Reapers. Even if it fails Shep would've at least tried.

It is I never claimed it wasn't.

[legion999]

I don't understand the die part of this ending. Why is the Catalyst still attacking?

[Fauxnormal]

Ryzaki wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...
Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Here's a tip: They might be brainwashed tranquil slaves that "living" is something their true selves might be horrified and prefer death with.

Cute though! 

For the record I'm well aware Xili's preferred ending is Synthesis. Had nothing to do with it being popular. But your butthurt is very obvious!

Here's a tip: You have no idea! Every option has 'possible' downsides. Destory? Might not stop anything at all. Control? Shepard might go insane and kill everyone. Syth? Yeah, MAYBE (highly unlikely) they were changed mentally. (Highly unlikely.)

At least they're alive. And you didn't. You know. End the ****ing galexy.

Cute, though!

Your butthurt is very obvious!

[dweller]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To whom? From where? Even if it's not giving up on the war entirely, it's giving up any hope of doing anything useful. It's willful denial of every bit of knowledge you've thus far accumulated.

*shrugs* 

Maybe it is.

Doesn't make it self-righteous.

It's a perfectly valid choice. Like your garbage mass body violation synthesis.

Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Again your logic is that the right ending is the one that lets you live, why didn't you choose control then?

Because I want the galaxy to choose its own way instead of imposing my faulty logic upon them, and control's reaper police and synthesis's cyborgs don't allow that. Since you couldn't ask them what they wanted and cast a vote to find out, your best bet (if you were reasonable) would be Destroy, and there is really nothing to debate here.

Modifié par dweller, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:11 .

[Eluril]

Esquin wrote...

Eluril wrote...

It is also heavily implied that the future cycle was able to perfect the Crucible (meaning having it target and destroy just the Reapers, leaving everything else intact.) To me the question Refusers answer positively that I answer negatively is "Is losing everything we (civilization) have now to beat them perfectly in the future acceptable?"

That isn't the question.

The question is "Can we trust that the choices being offered are for real. Or are they a reaper trap."

The answer is that they have to be assumed to be a reaper trap. 

Indoctrination AGAIN!!!!????!!!! It's over guys. Get over it.

The Crucible gives you the power, NOT the Catalyst. Repeat after me: Shepard has all the power at the end of the game. The Catalyst is powerless and simply communicating to Shepard. YOU have the power through the Crucible.

[Ryzaki]

Fauxnormal wrote...

awww, butthurt kid is butthurt.

You blew up everyone, princess. There's no reason you can ever offer me that will make that okay.

Aww...are you still mad that someone choose another choice? Poor baby. It must hurt that people think differently than you do. Tut tut.

And no actually bucko. The Reapers did that. Shep fought and lost.

[Esquin]

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

No see that's the thing. The only reason to assume the crucible is legit is because a REAPER tells you it is. Why on earth would you trust anything that a reaper says to you?

That's what this comes down to. In that moment, standing there with the catalyst you have no reason at all to believe that anything it is saying is the truth. It admits to being a reaper. There is no reason to believe that the options it offers are legitimate. Or that anything it tells you about those options is the truth. In fact it's more likely that it's lying to you and this is another manipulation so that the reapers can control you. 

The only logial option is to walk away from what is obviously a trap. Forget what happens in the endings. You don't get to make chocies using hind sight. There, in that moment, the only real option is to assume that the crucible is a reaper trap. 

What about when everyone found out that the Relays and Citadel were created by Reapers? Did everyone just kind of STOP using them? No. That point is now moot. Try again.

There is a big difference between using forms of transport constructed by the reapers and changing the nature of all life in the galaxy based on their word. 

We're at war here. Using the relays is like Americans using German roads in WW2. 

Using the crucible is like letting Hitler tell you what your options are for winning the war and then doing exactly what he tells you. All the time believing that suddenly he'd turned into some kind of benevolent individual who loves you.

Are we allowing Hitler into ending arguments now? How can I defend myself against these comparisons?

It's an accurate comparison. We're talking about a group who want's to commit galactic genocide and you're about to do exactly what they tell you to do and trust that they suddenly have your best interests at heart. The fact that you can't present any reasons why you could trust the catalyst say's it all really.

You want reasons? Fair enough. The Catalyst himself says that his "solution" wouldn't work anymore, due to your arrival. He needs you to make a new solution (BGR). If he needs you to make a new solution, why would he BS you? Technically, if you Refuse, you are doing exactly what he (supposedly) wanted, he used reverse psychology to manipulate you into letting him continue.

And why would I believe that he was telling me the truth about his solution not working anymore? His solution is genocide. Pretty sure he can still do that. Clearly the kid is a liar and needs to be destroyed. So i'd rather go and try to do it in a way I know has the potential to work then use one of his options. Since due to him being a liar we can't trust his options.

[Fauxnormal]

dweller wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To whom? From where? Even if it's not giving up on the war entirely, it's giving up any hope of doing anything useful. It's willful denial of every bit of knowledge you've thus far accumulated.

*shrugs* 

Maybe it is.

Doesn't make it self-righteous.

It's a perfectly valid choice. Like your garbage mass body violation synthesis.

Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Again your logic is that the right ending is the one that lets you live, why didn't you choose control then?

Because I want the galaxy to choose its own way instead of imposing my faulty logic upon them, and control's reaper police and synthesis's cyborgs don't allow that.

So choose destory. I have picked all three choices and have no problem with any of them but the massive, pathetic, cowardly, stupid, inane copout that is refuse.