861 réponses à ce sujet

[Eluril]

Esquin wrote...

Eluril wrote...

Esquin wrote...

Eluril wrote...

It is also heavily implied that the future cycle was able to perfect the Crucible (meaning having it target and destroy just the Reapers, leaving everything else intact.) To me the question Refusers answer positively that I answer negatively is "Is losing everything we (civilization) have now to beat them perfectly in the future acceptable?"

That isn't the question.

The question is "Can we trust that the choices being offered are for real. Or are they a reaper trap."

The answer is that they have to be assumed to be a reaper trap. 

Indoctrination AGAIN!!!!????!!!! It's over guys. Get over it.

The Crucible gives you the power, NOT the Catalyst. Repeat after me: Shepard has all the power at the end of the game. The Catalyst is powerless and simply communicating to Shepard. YOU have the power through the Crucible.

This has nothing to do with indoctrination. Indoctrination is ridiculous and always was.

This is about them lying to manipulate a situation. If the crucible gave us the power then why would we need the catalyst to give us our choices and offer us that power. 

By choosing the crucible you're playing right into the catalysts hands. We don't even know who designed the crucible, for all we know it was the reapers themselves. 

But hey, if you want to trust the genocidal AI that want's nothing more than to eliminate all advanced organic life then go right ahead. I personally have a tendancy to be wary of AI's that have been trying to exterminate all life for 3 games.

If it was manipulating you it would do it in a more clever way. Something like saying "IF you use destroy you will kill 90% of the population. But if you use synthesis it's sunshine and rainbows." It wouldn't present the ending choice the way it does, illustrating the downside of each ending (including synthesis where it acknowledges you are forcing a change). The Crucible is very clearly built by a precursor civilization to the Reapers, probably the first one or one of the earliest ones. It was organics way of dealing with the Reapers they just got killed before they could implement it, so now we have the half-built one within the game.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

dweller wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To whom? From where? Even if it's not giving up on the war entirely, it's giving up any hope of doing anything useful. It's willful denial of every bit of knowledge you've thus far accumulated.

*shrugs* 

Maybe it is.

Doesn't make it self-righteous.

It's a perfectly valid choice. Like your garbage mass body violation synthesis.

Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Again your logic is that the right ending is the one that lets you live, why didn't you choose control then?

Because I want the galaxy to choose its own way instead of imposing my faulty logic upon them, and control's reaper police and synthesis's cyborgs don't allow that.

So choose destory. I have picked all three choices and have no problem with any of them but the massive, pathetic, cowardly, stupid, inane copout that is refuse.

aww butthurt.

Awwww that would matter if you and your 'defense' hadn't been neatly ripped to shreads by all and sundry.

aww to bad it hasn't and you have yet to do so. awwwwwwwww

[SMichelle]

If OP can say that Arrival never happened - then I say that the Reapers are all a dream.

Problem solved. 

/thread.

[ATLAS1192]

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

No see that's the thing. The only reason to assume the crucible is legit is because a REAPER tells you it is. Why on earth would you trust anything that a reaper says to you?

That's what this comes down to. In that moment, standing there with the catalyst you have no reason at all to believe that anything it is saying is the truth. It admits to being a reaper. There is no reason to believe that the options it offers are legitimate. Or that anything it tells you about those options is the truth. In fact it's more likely that it's lying to you and this is another manipulation so that the reapers can control you. 

The only logial option is to walk away from what is obviously a trap. Forget what happens in the endings. You don't get to make chocies using hind sight. There, in that moment, the only real option is to assume that the crucible is a reaper trap. 

What about when everyone found out that the Relays and Citadel were created by Reapers? Did everyone just kind of STOP using them? No. That point is now moot. Try again.

There is a big difference between using forms of transport constructed by the reapers and changing the nature of all life in the galaxy based on their word. 

We're at war here. Using the relays is like Americans using German roads in WW2. 

Using the crucible is like letting Hitler tell you what your options are for winning the war and then doing exactly what he tells you. All the time believing that suddenly he'd turned into some kind of benevolent individual who loves you.

Are we allowing Hitler into ending arguments now? How can I defend myself against these comparisons?

It's an accurate comparison. We're talking about a group who want's to commit galactic genocide and you're about to do exactly what they tell you to do and trust that they suddenly have your best interests at heart. The fact that you can't present any reasons why you could trust the catalyst say's it all really.

You want reasons? Fair enough. The Catalyst himself says that his "solution" wouldn't work anymore, due to your arrival. He needs you to make a new solution (BGR). If he needs you to make a new solution, why would he BS you? Technically, if you Refuse, you are doing exactly what he (supposedly) wanted, he used reverse psychology to manipulate you into letting him continue.

And why would I believe that he was telling me the truth about his solution not working anymore? His solution is genocide. Pretty sure he can still do that. Clearly the kid is a liar and needs to be destroyed. So i'd rather go and try to do it in a way I know has the potential to work then use one of his options. Since due to him being a liar we can't trust his options.

Why do people think the Catalyst is a liar? Unless we're talking about a pre-ending stance. Then all the distrust would make sense. Also, genocide is now officially the most overused word on BSN.

[Ryzaki]

SMichelle wrote...

If OP can say that Arrival never happened - then I say that the Reapers are all a dream.

Problem solved. 

/thread.

Huh? 

Did he say Arrival never happened or that Shepard didn't have to do Arrival? 

Because the latter is actually in the game (and you lose some warassets because of it).

[Esquin]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Esquin wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

awww, butthurt kid is butthurt.

You blew up everyone, princess. There's no reason you can ever offer me that will make that okay.

Aww...are you still mad that someone choose another choice? Poor baby. It must hurt that people think differently than you do. Tut tut.

And no actually bucko. The Reapers did that. Shep fought and lost.

Actually, no. Synth? I'm cool with that. Control? I'm cool with that. Destory? I'm the most cool with that.

Awww, are you still mad that you have no logical defense for killing every living thing? Poor baby. It must hurt that people call you out on your BS.

No, actually, bucko. You had a choice. YOU killed every living thing because YOU were a coward or a butthurt baby. That is not 'fighting'. That is pathetic.

I didn't kill every living thing. The reapers did. I just took away what was potentially another weapon for them to do it with. Because again "I don't know what the crucible does and I don't trust the catalyst to tell me the truth about it."

Nope.

You killed everyone and everything.

No one else.

YOU.

Oh you're one of those people. I hate people like you. And i'm done with this debate. I know how logic works, I know why my choice was the right one. But most of all.

IT'S A VIDEO GAME! Go outside and get a life.

[Fauxnormal]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

dweller wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To whom? From where? Even if it's not giving up on the war entirely, it's giving up any hope of doing anything useful. It's willful denial of every bit of knowledge you've thus far accumulated.

*shrugs* 

Maybe it is.

Doesn't make it self-righteous.

It's a perfectly valid choice. Like your garbage mass body violation synthesis.

Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Again your logic is that the right ending is the one that lets you live, why didn't you choose control then?

Because I want the galaxy to choose its own way instead of imposing my faulty logic upon them, and control's reaper police and synthesis's cyborgs don't allow that.

So choose destory. I have picked all three choices and have no problem with any of them but the massive, pathetic, cowardly, stupid, inane copout that is refuse.

aww butthurt.

Awwww that would matter if you and your 'defense' hadn't been neatly ripped to shreads by all and sundry.

aww to bad it hasn't and you have yet to do so. awwwwwwwww

Oh, it's been blown out of the water by many people.

It's kind of cute how obviously young you are. Like...ten or so.

[dweller]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

dweller wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To whom? From where? Even if it's not giving up on the war entirely, it's giving up any hope of doing anything useful. It's willful denial of every bit of knowledge you've thus far accumulated.

*shrugs* 

Maybe it is.

Doesn't make it self-righteous.

It's a perfectly valid choice. Like your garbage mass body violation synthesis.

Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Again your logic is that the right ending is the one that lets you live, why didn't you choose control then?

Because I want the galaxy to choose its own way instead of imposing my faulty logic upon them, and control's reaper police and synthesis's cyborgs don't allow that.

So choose destory. I have picked all three choices and have no problem with any of them but the massive, pathetic, cowardly, stupid, inane copout that is refuse.

aww butthurt.

Awwww that would matter if you and your 'defense' hadn't been neatly ripped to shreads by all and sundry.

aww to bad it hasn't and you have yet to do so. awwwwwwwww

Quit being so petty and childish and actually start providing well-thought arguements.

No, screw that... with such comments, you really are becoming a waste of time.

[Eluril]

Yawaru wrote...

I'm glad the option is there, but the idea that it's the right or best choice is just... dumb. ME3 alone you screw the Salarians by stopping the Genophage (or screw the Krogan by not stopping it) and screw the Quarians by helping the Geth (or vice versa). Now from a meta standpoint you know that it works out in the end, the Quarian/Geth in the short run at least, not the Salarian/Krogan. But you also know you die horribly by refusing. From Shepard's standpoint, hey guess what, you're potentially dooming one race to save another, and it's a choice you make on your own. That's the whole point of the game, no, the series even. And hey, lets not forget you might choose to not help the Geth, in which case you're only arguing to save EDI, which is small potatoes in the long run.

Point is, if that's the ending you believe is right for your Shepard, good for you. Is it the choice Shepard would make if ME3 was real? I don't think so, but my opinion is just as valid or invalid as yours. For me, It's like sacrificing the Alliance ships to save the Council, Shepard carries the guilt of all the ships and crew lost by his decision, but he doesn't regret it as it was a necessary sacrifice.

Refusers would say it is wrong to take even one life forcibly and compromising your ideals. Not saying I agree but it is an interesting position.

[Esquin]

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

No see that's the thing. The only reason to assume the crucible is legit is because a REAPER tells you it is. Why on earth would you trust anything that a reaper says to you?

That's what this comes down to. In that moment, standing there with the catalyst you have no reason at all to believe that anything it is saying is the truth. It admits to being a reaper. There is no reason to believe that the options it offers are legitimate. Or that anything it tells you about those options is the truth. In fact it's more likely that it's lying to you and this is another manipulation so that the reapers can control you. 

The only logial option is to walk away from what is obviously a trap. Forget what happens in the endings. You don't get to make chocies using hind sight. There, in that moment, the only real option is to assume that the crucible is a reaper trap. 

What about when everyone found out that the Relays and Citadel were created by Reapers? Did everyone just kind of STOP using them? No. That point is now moot. Try again.

There is a big difference between using forms of transport constructed by the reapers and changing the nature of all life in the galaxy based on their word. 

We're at war here. Using the relays is like Americans using German roads in WW2. 

Using the crucible is like letting Hitler tell you what your options are for winning the war and then doing exactly what he tells you. All the time believing that suddenly he'd turned into some kind of benevolent individual who loves you.

Are we allowing Hitler into ending arguments now? How can I defend myself against these comparisons?

It's an accurate comparison. We're talking about a group who want's to commit galactic genocide and you're about to do exactly what they tell you to do and trust that they suddenly have your best interests at heart. The fact that you can't present any reasons why you could trust the catalyst say's it all really.

You want reasons? Fair enough. The Catalyst himself says that his "solution" wouldn't work anymore, due to your arrival. He needs you to make a new solution (BGR). If he needs you to make a new solution, why would he BS you? Technically, if you Refuse, you are doing exactly what he (supposedly) wanted, he used reverse psychology to manipulate you into letting him continue.

And why would I believe that he was telling me the truth about his solution not working anymore? His solution is genocide. Pretty sure he can still do that. Clearly the kid is a liar and needs to be destroyed. So i'd rather go and try to do it in a way I know has the potential to work then use one of his options. Since due to him being a liar we can't trust his options.

Why do people think the Catalyst is a liar? Unless we're talking about a pre-ending stance. Then all the distrust would make sense. Also, genocide is now officially the most overused word on BSN.

1 last thing.

It's a reaper. I don't trust reapers. End of story. 

[Fauxnormal]

Esquin wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Esquin wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

awww, butthurt kid is butthurt.

You blew up everyone, princess. There's no reason you can ever offer me that will make that okay.

Aww...are you still mad that someone choose another choice? Poor baby. It must hurt that people think differently than you do. Tut tut.

And no actually bucko. The Reapers did that. Shep fought and lost.

Actually, no. Synth? I'm cool with that. Control? I'm cool with that. Destory? I'm the most cool with that.

Awww, are you still mad that you have no logical defense for killing every living thing? Poor baby. It must hurt that people call you out on your BS.

No, actually, bucko. You had a choice. YOU killed every living thing because YOU were a coward or a butthurt baby. That is not 'fighting'. That is pathetic.

I didn't kill every living thing. The reapers did. I just took away what was potentially another weapon for them to do it with. Because again "I don't know what the crucible does and I don't trust the catalyst to tell me the truth about it."

Nope.

You killed everyone and everything.

No one else.

YOU.

Oh you're one of those people. I hate people like you. And i'm done with this debate. I know how logic works, I know why my choice was the right one. But most of all.

IT'S A VIDEO GAME! Go outside and get a life.

Awww, it runs away with tail between legs and the typical 'GET A LIFE' comment.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

dweller wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

dweller wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To whom? From where? Even if it's not giving up on the war entirely, it's giving up any hope of doing anything useful. It's willful denial of every bit of knowledge you've thus far accumulated.

*shrugs* 

Maybe it is.

Doesn't make it self-righteous.

It's a perfectly valid choice. Like your garbage mass body violation synthesis.

Awww, the buttburt kidlet's going to attack the popular thing to attack.

Cute!

Here's a tip; at least they're still alive. ^.^

You know.

As opposed to husks.

or dead.

Again your logic is that the right ending is the one that lets you live, why didn't you choose control then?

Because I want the galaxy to choose its own way instead of imposing my faulty logic upon them, and control's reaper police and synthesis's cyborgs don't allow that.

So choose destory. I have picked all three choices and have no problem with any of them but the massive, pathetic, cowardly, stupid, inane copout that is refuse.

aww butthurt.

Awwww that would matter if you and your 'defense' hadn't been neatly ripped to shreads by all and sundry.

aww to bad it hasn't and you have yet to do so. awwwwwwwww

Quit being so petty and childish and actually start providing well-thought arguements.

No, screw that... with such comments, you really are becoming a waste of time.

I do with you, not with this guy.

[legion999]

Fauxnormal wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Really? Did Shepard kill each and every person? You sure that wasn't the Reapers snd the Catalyst?

I'm sure.  YOU made the choice, princess.  YOU.
You had every option to chose something else. Being a coward, or using twisted backassward troll logic, you chose to throw a tantrum and doom everything to death or worse.  bravo.

I did? Huh I thought I chose Control as my ending.

Also your logic is laughable. The Catalyst literally several minutes beforehand states how it's solution won't work anymore. Yet it still wipes out the cycle if you dare not choose.

And I doomed everything? Guess the new stargazer scene is bull as well.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Ryzaki wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

If OP can say that Arrival never happened - then I say that the Reapers are all a dream.

Problem solved. 

/thread.

Huh? 

Did he say Arrival never happened or that Shepard didn't have to do Arrival? 

Because the latter is actually in the game (and you lose some warassets because of it).

I said Shepard didn't have anything to do with arrival if you don't download it, I don't know where she got something otherwise.

[Scott2998]

So wait, I'm still confused, is Hitler a reaper? It all makes sense now...

[SMichelle]

Ryzaki wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

If OP can say that Arrival never happened - then I say that the Reapers are all a dream.

Problem solved. 

/thread.

Huh? 

Did he say Arrival never happened or that Shepard didn't have to do Arrival? 

Because the latter is actually in the game (and you lose some warassets because of it).

Huh.  I had no idea.  Why are you in custody then?

[Ryzaki]

Scott2998 wrote...

So wait, I'm still confused, is Hitler a reaper? It all makes sense now...

...I read that as raper and was confused for a good minute.

[Ryzaki]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I said Shepard didn't have anything to do with arrival if you don't download it, I don't know where she got something otherwise.

Me neither.

SMichelle wrote...

Huh.  I had no idea.  Why are you in custody then?

For working with Cerberus apparently (and the other illegal crap you did with them).

The relay blowing up line line changes from the "the s*** you've done would've had any other soldier tried and court-martialed." (VERY rough paraphrase.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:24 .

[legion999]

SMichelle wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh? 

Did he say Arrival never happened or that Shepard didn't have to do Arrival? 

Because the latter is actually in the game (and you lose some warassets because of it).

Huh.  I had no idea.  Why are you in custody then?

For being with Cerberus I think. The opening isn't very good at explaining it.

Modifié par legion999, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:25 .

[ATLAS1192]

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Esquin wrote...

No see that's the thing. The only reason to assume the crucible is legit is because a REAPER tells you it is. Why on earth would you trust anything that a reaper says to you?

That's what this comes down to. In that moment, standing there with the catalyst you have no reason at all to believe that anything it is saying is the truth. It admits to being a reaper. There is no reason to believe that the options it offers are legitimate. Or that anything it tells you about those options is the truth. In fact it's more likely that it's lying to you and this is another manipulation so that the reapers can control you. 

The only logial option is to walk away from what is obviously a trap. Forget what happens in the endings. You don't get to make chocies using hind sight. There, in that moment, the only real option is to assume that the crucible is a reaper trap. 

What about when everyone found out that the Relays and Citadel were created by Reapers? Did everyone just kind of STOP using them? No. That point is now moot. Try again.

There is a big difference between using forms of transport constructed by the reapers and changing the nature of all life in the galaxy based on their word. 

We're at war here. Using the relays is like Americans using German roads in WW2. 

Using the crucible is like letting Hitler tell you what your options are for winning the war and then doing exactly what he tells you. All the time believing that suddenly he'd turned into some kind of benevolent individual who loves you.

Are we allowing Hitler into ending arguments now? How can I defend myself against these comparisons?

It's an accurate comparison. We're talking about a group who want's to commit galactic genocide and you're about to do exactly what they tell you to do and trust that they suddenly have your best interests at heart. The fact that you can't present any reasons why you could trust the catalyst say's it all really.

You want reasons? Fair enough. The Catalyst himself says that his "solution" wouldn't work anymore, due to your arrival. He needs you to make a new solution (BGR). If he needs you to make a new solution, why would he BS you? Technically, if you Refuse, you are doing exactly what he (supposedly) wanted, he used reverse psychology to manipulate you into letting him continue.

And why would I believe that he was telling me the truth about his solution not working anymore? His solution is genocide. Pretty sure he can still do that. Clearly the kid is a liar and needs to be destroyed. So i'd rather go and try to do it in a way I know has the potential to work then use one of his options. Since due to him being a liar we can't trust his options.

Why do people think the Catalyst is a liar? Unless we're talking about a pre-ending stance. Then all the distrust would make sense. Also, genocide is now officially the most overused word on BSN.

1 last thing.

It's a reaper. I don't trust reapers. End of story. 

I think I read something like this earlier on in the thread. I can't find it, so I can't quote it, but I think it got the point across quite nicely.

Refuse + Catalyst lying = Everyone dead.
Refuse + Catalyst truthful = Everyone dead.
Trust + Catalyst lying = Everyone dead.
Trust + Catalyst truthful = Reapers dead.

Something to mull over.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

SMichelle wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

If OP can say that Arrival never happened - then I say that the Reapers are all a dream.

Problem solved. 

/thread.

Huh? 

Did he say Arrival never happened or that Shepard didn't have to do Arrival? 

Because the latter is actually in the game (and you lose some warassets because of it).

Huh.  I had no idea.  Why are you in custody then?

Horrible Bioware writing.

[babachewie]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

If OP can say that Arrival never happened - then I say that the Reapers are all a dream.

Problem solved. 

/thread.

Huh? 

Did he say Arrival never happened or that Shepard didn't have to do Arrival? 

Because the latter is actually in the game (and you lose some warassets because of it).

I said Shepard didn't have anything to do with arrival if you don't download it, I don't know where she got something otherwise.

If you dont blow up that relay the Reapers will show up sooner than expected surprising everyone and with no preparation time the Galaxy would lose worst and sooner than expected. Dumb to think the events in Arrival werent necessary and if you think not downloading it and having Hackett sned a team instead of you to clear your conscience then you're a coward and might as well step aside and let people with balls step in and handle the big decisions.

Modifié par babachewie, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:30 .

[Ryzaki]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

If OP can say that Arrival never happened - then I say that the Reapers are all a dream.

Problem solved. 

/thread.

Huh? 

Did he say Arrival never happened or that Shepard didn't have to do Arrival? 

Because the latter is actually in the game (and you lose some warassets because of it).

Huh.  I had no idea.  Why are you in custody then?

Horrible Bioware writing.

Also this.

Why Shep wastes time in JAIL [custody, what the hell ever he/she was imprisoned and couldn't move freely] (when he/she hasn't done Arrival) instead of looking for something to defeat the Reapers BOGGLES THE MIND.

Shep's never been the sharpest knife in the rack but that's just...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[RaenImrahl]

No quote pyramids, please.