861 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

carrmatt91 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

One other thing, the Catalyst tells you, that the Crucible is really not a weapon but one effing big battery that allows it (Catalyst) to effect whatever it could not before.

So, people who keep going on that it's a weapon, please stop and consider that for a moment.

Personally I think they fubar the Crucible making it more complicated then it needed to be. Should have just left it as a PROTEAN weapon from their war on their own AIs and it would have played better and made sense.

Agreed.

i agree too, the crucible as it is really is NOT the best plot device they could have used

Seriously don't know WTF they were thinking with that.

@KJ: Hey I told you I didn't like them.

Though this pic is awesome: 



It almost makes me wanna pick control over Destroy. But my Shep can't do that to his poor LI.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:41 .

[DEATHSCOPE]

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

[quote]DEATHSCOPE wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

[quote]DEATHSCOPE wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

[quote]DEATHSCOPE wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

[quote]DEATHSCOPE wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

[quote]DEATHSCOPE wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

@Deathscope

Sorry for the bad grammar, I meant to say that, The aztecs could have surrendered, but choose not to, a choice that they did have, but Shepard didn't, so you can't say the Aztecs didn't have a huge a huge super-weapon because they had the option to surrender, something Shep didn't. Now anyway, The Aztecs choose not to surrender, are their leaders or cortez blamed for the Genocide.[/quote]

I don't get why you keep bringing up the option to surrender. It does not matter.

The Aztecs did not have anything that would vanquished the Spaniards but they fought on and were ultimately defeated. Surrender or not they would've been defeated sooner or later. Cortez is to be blamed for annihilating their culture of course.

Shepard though, had a chance to win but he/she choses not to. The galaxy felled to the Reapers because Shepard hesitated. Surrender, you're right doesn't matter here, so it was either win or die. Shepard doomed the galaxy and so he/she is to be blamed.
[/quote] Forget the superweapon, Had they surrendered they would have advoided extinction, but who's blamed for the genocide?
[/quote]

You can't forget the superweapon. That's the point I'm trying to make based on YOUR argument. You can't just throw it out if you did not like it like you did with my Arrival stance.[/quote]The atzecs also could have ended the war but choose not to, its the same thing, the superweapon ends the war, but i choose not to use it, are the atzecs seen that they commited genocide on themselves, no.
[/quote]

Ending a war is different from winning a war. Are you even trying?
[/quote]We're talking about survival here.
[/quote]
Oh, now we're talking about survival? Not just fighting and winning with our honor intact? Good one OP.[/quote]I'm not arguing which one is right, I'm arguing whether or not i would be genocide to not surrender and die, now answer the question.
[/quote]
What you need to do is slow down on the typing and at least try to form coherent sentences so people can understand.

The answer is no, it is not genocide to keep on fighting to the last man. But it is genocide to have a superweapon in your disposal but refused to use it to win and ensured all species' survival.
[/quote]I have to type fast, when there's 20 people flaming me but things have seem to calm down. How is the superweapon and surrendering different, they both stop the war?
[/quote]
Well, when you made a thread like this, did you expect not to get challenged and flamed?

One ensured victory and survival, while the other defeat and maybe survival.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

carrmatt91 wrote...

@Khajiit Jzargo i calmed down mainly because ive been up for about 28 hours straight.

oh and 1 question.

how many refusers would have chesen destroy instead if it only targeted reaper code thus downgrading the geth and edi but not killing them? even if it made a big chance for a new war with the geth?

A lot, including me, because It doesn't involve genocide.

[RDSFirebane]

Did the crucible remind anyone other then me of the Ship from Titan A.E.??

[carrmatt91]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

carrmatt91 wrote...

@Khajiit Jzargo i calmed down mainly because ive been up for about 28 hours straight.

oh and 1 question.

how many refusers would have chesen destroy instead if it only targeted reaper code thus downgrading the geth and edi but not killing them? even if it made a big chance for a new war with the geth?

A lot, including me, because It doesn't involve genocide.

even if it started a 'cold war' with the geth because they are now a consensus again? what if it turned into a new galactic war that got them killed anyway?

[carrmatt91]

RDSFirebane wrote...

Did the crucible remind anyone other then me of the Ship from Titan A.E.??

reminded me more of the dakara weapon from SG1

 

Modifié par carrmatt91, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:47 .

[RDSFirebane]

carrmatt91 wrote...

RDSFirebane wrote...

Did the crucible remind anyone other then me of the Ship from Titan A.E.??

reminded me more of the dakara weapon from SG1

o hey now there's something I had forgotten about.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

@Deathscope

I did expect to get flamed, just giving my reasons.
The point is that there's a chance to end the war, for Shep is the crucible, for the aztecs it was surrender. also, surrendering mostly ensures survival.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

carrmatt91 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

carrmatt91 wrote...

@Khajiit Jzargo i calmed down mainly because ive been up for about 28 hours straight.

oh and 1 question.

how many refusers would have chesen destroy instead if it only targeted reaper code thus downgrading the geth and edi but not killing them? even if it made a big chance for a new war with the geth?

A lot, including me, because It doesn't involve genocide.

even if it started a 'cold war' with the geth because they are now a consensus again? what if it turned into a new galactic war that got them killed anyway?

The only reasons why Geth attacked was for self-defense, With a treaty, I'm sure they will continue to be peaceful, it just renders Legion sacrifice useless.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Ryzaki wrote...

carrmatt91 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

One other thing, the Catalyst tells you, that the Crucible is really not a weapon but one effing big battery that allows it (Catalyst) to effect whatever it could not before.

So, people who keep going on that it's a weapon, please stop and consider that for a moment.

Personally I think they fubar the Crucible making it more complicated then it needed to be. Should have just left it as a PROTEAN weapon from their war on their own AIs and it would have played better and made sense.

Agreed.

i agree too, the crucible as it is really is NOT the best plot device they could have used

Seriously don't know WTF they were thinking with that.

@KJ: Hey I told you I didn't like them.

Though this pic is awesome: 



It almost makes me wanna pick control over Destroy. But my Shep can't do that to his poor LI.

Meh, Quarians are so much better!

[carrmatt91]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

carrmatt91 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

carrmatt91 wrote...

@Khajiit Jzargo i calmed down mainly because ive been up for about 28 hours straight.

oh and 1 question.

how many refusers would have chesen destroy instead if it only targeted reaper code thus downgrading the geth and edi but not killing them? even if it made a big chance for a new war with the geth?

A lot, including me, because It doesn't involve genocide.

even if it started a 'cold war' with the geth because they are now a consensus again? what if it turned into a new galactic war that got them killed anyway?

The only reasons why Geth attacked was for self-defense, With a treaty, I'm sure they will continue to be peaceful, it just renders Legion sacrifice useless.

but the concensus is fallible, the heretic geth worshipped the reapers, theoretically another heretic group could arise and use the reaper tech to build a mini reaper or something, unlikely but possible.

if i were in that position id keep a close eye on the geth anyway

[DEATHSCOPE]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

@Deathscope

I did expect to get flamed, just giving my reasons.
The point is that there's a chance to end the war, for Shep is the crucible, for the aztecs it was surrender. also, surrendering mostly ensures survival.

Right there. You just stated it. Shepard can use the Crucible to stop the Reapers and end the war. Yet, all this time you were arguing that refusal, opting out, is the best and only right ending.

[carrmatt91]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

@Deathscope

I did expect to get flamed, just giving my reasons.
The point is that there's a chance to end the war, for Shep is the crucible, for the aztecs it was surrender. also, surrendering mostly ensures survival.

Right there. You just stated it. Shepard can use the Crucible to stop the Reapers and end the war. Yet, all this time you were arguing that refusal, opting out, is the best and only right ending.

it could have been the best ending if you could actually win, it would basically be destroy but without losing the geth or edi, the only way you could make the crucible options better is with refuse = lose and lets not forget that abomination of synthesis is the writers baby

[Khajiit Jzargo]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

@Deathscope

I did expect to get flamed, just giving my reasons.
The point is that there's a chance to end the war, for Shep is the crucible, for the aztecs it was surrender. also, surrendering mostly ensures survival.

Right there. You just stated it. Shepard can use the Crucible to stop the Reapers and end the war. Yet, all this time you were arguing that refusal, opting out, is the best and only right ending.

I knew he could use the crucible to end the war, when did I say he couldn't. I said I believe it shouldn't be ended that way, thats what i argued for like 20 pages.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

carrmatt91 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

carrmatt91 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

carrmatt91 wrote...

@Khajiit Jzargo i calmed down mainly because ive been up for about 28 hours straight.

oh and 1 question.

how many refusers would have chesen destroy instead if it only targeted reaper code thus downgrading the geth and edi but not killing them? even if it made a big chance for a new war with the geth?

A lot, including me, because It doesn't involve genocide.

even if it started a 'cold war' with the geth because they are now a consensus again? what if it turned into a new galactic war that got them killed anyway?

The only reasons why Geth attacked was for self-defense, With a treaty, I'm sure they will continue to be peaceful, it just renders Legion sacrifice useless.

but the concensus is fallible, the heretic geth worshipped the reapers, theoretically another heretic group could arise and use the reaper tech to build a mini reaper or something, unlikely but possible.

if i were in that position id keep a close eye on the geth anyway

Even if that were to happen, its a small heretic group, the rest of the Geth wouldn't agree.

[Archonsg]

Ryzaki wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

One other thing, the Catalyst tells you, that the Crucible is really not a weapon but one effing big battery that allows it (Catalyst) to effect whatever it could not before.

So, people who keep going on that it's a weapon, please stop and consider that for a moment.

Personally I think they fubar the Crucible making it more complicated then it needed to be. Should have just left it as a PROTEAN weapon from their war on their own AIs and it would have played better and made sense.

The ending only improves from the loss of Starbrat.

That goes without saying. That they had the chance to rewrite it all without the StarBrat but chose to keep it and the idiocy it brings, tells you something about the three "approved" endings. 

[DEATHSCOPE]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

@Deathscope

I did expect to get flamed, just giving my reasons.
The point is that there's a chance to end the war, for Shep is the crucible, for the aztecs it was surrender. also, surrendering mostly ensures survival.

Right there. You just stated it. Shepard can use the Crucible to stop the Reapers and end the war. Yet, all this time you were arguing that refusal, opting out, is the best and only right ending.

I knew he could use the crucible to end the war, when did I say he couldn't. I said I believe it shouldn't be ended that way, thats what i argued for like 20 pages.

Right, right. Then we're back where we started. I'm out OP. I gotta pack for 4th of July. If this thread makes it until next week, I'll be back.

[carrmatt91]

Archonsg wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

One other thing, the Catalyst tells you, that the Crucible is really not a weapon but one effing big battery that allows it (Catalyst) to effect whatever it could not before.

So, people who keep going on that it's a weapon, please stop and consider that for a moment.

Personally I think they fubar the Crucible making it more complicated then it needed to be. Should have just left it as a PROTEAN weapon from their war on their own AIs and it would have played better and made sense.

The ending only improves from the loss of Starbrat.

That goes without saying. That they had the chance to rewrite it all without the StarBrat but chose to keep it and the idiocy it brings, tells you something about the three "approved" endings. 

art 

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Right, right. Then we're back where we started. I'm out OP. I gotta pack for 4th of July. If this thread makes it until next week, I'll be back.

 

i just realised its my birthday today, and i also didn't realise it's 6am now i get to be tired all day whilst i try to stay awake so i don't mess up my sleeping pattern

Modifié par carrmatt91, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:04 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

@Deathscope

I did expect to get flamed, just giving my reasons.
The point is that there's a chance to end the war, for Shep is the crucible, for the aztecs it was surrender. also, surrendering mostly ensures survival.

Right there. You just stated it. Shepard can use the Crucible to stop the Reapers and end the war. Yet, all this time you were arguing that refusal, opting out, is the best and only right ending.

I knew he could use the crucible to end the war, when did I say he couldn't. I said I believe it shouldn't be ended that way, thats what i argued for like 20 pages.

Right, right. Then we're back where we started. I'm out OP. I gotta pack for 4th of July. If this thread makes it until next week, I'll be back.

Alright man, have fun.

[Ryzaki]

Archonsg wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

One other thing, the Catalyst tells you, that the Crucible is really not a weapon but one effing big battery that allows it (Catalyst) to effect whatever it could not before.

So, people who keep going on that it's a weapon, please stop and consider that for a moment.

Personally I think they fubar the Crucible making it more complicated then it needed to be. Should have just left it as a PROTEAN weapon from their war on their own AIs and it would have played better and made sense.

The ending only improves from the loss of Starbrat.

That goes without saying. That they had the chance to rewrite it all without the StarBrat but chose to keep it and the idiocy it brings, tells you something about the three "approved" endings. 

Yup.

And refuse just feels like a giant FU to me. Especially since you can get it from shooting starbrat. No matter what you said. Ra forbid you shoot at their "artistic vision." Ugh.

[Archonsg]

carrmatt91 wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

@Deathscope

I did expect to get flamed, just giving my reasons.
The point is that there's a chance to end the war, for Shep is the crucible, for the aztecs it was surrender. also, surrendering mostly ensures survival.

Right there. You just stated it. Shepard can use the Crucible to stop the Reapers and end the war. Yet, all this time you were arguing that refusal, opting out, is the best and only right ending.

it could have been the best ending if you could actually win, it would basically be destroy but without losing the geth or edi, the only way you could make the crucible options better is with refuse = lose and lets not forget that abomination of synthesis is the writers baby

Actually in thIs scenario even if the Geth gets wiped out as a race, they die fighting, even if EDI dies,  she dies fighting and even if Shepard dies, he dies fighting and if the galaxy wins, their SACRIFICES would have made this ending epic. Unlike Shepard's choice of suicide and stab in the back death sentence. 

[carrmatt91]

Archonsg wrote...

carrmatt91 wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

@Deathscope

I did expect to get flamed, just giving my reasons.
The point is that there's a chance to end the war, for Shep is the crucible, for the aztecs it was surrender. also, surrendering mostly ensures survival.

Right there. You just stated it. Shepard can use the Crucible to stop the Reapers and end the war. Yet, all this time you were arguing that refusal, opting out, is the best and only right ending.

it could have been the best ending if you could actually win, it would basically be destroy but without losing the geth or edi, the only way you could make the crucible options better is with refuse = lose and lets not forget that abomination of synthesis is the writers baby

Actually in thIs scenario even if the Geth gets wiped out as a race, they die fighting, even if EDI dies,  she dies fighting and even if Shepard dies, he dies fighting and if the galaxy wins, their SACRIFICES would have made this ending epic. Unlike Shepard's choice of suicide and stab in the back death sentence. 

so basically an upgraded destroy, but without the crucible. but we can't dwell on what could have been, *sigh* it would have been a good ending as well

[Necrotron]

Most of the arguments against Refusal use knowledge that Shepard, the character, does not have to point out that refusal is the wrong choice. From Shepard's point of view, he needs to fire the catalyst, and there is no reason to believe anything the self-described creator of the Reapers says.

Thusly, it makes sense for him to "refuse" or ignore the Reaper A.I. and search for a way to fire the catalyst. Sadly, the story shows nothing after you choose to not just blindly trust the Reaper god, except that you lost, and some later cycle won.

Modifié par Bathaius, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:28 .

[carrmatt91]

Bathaius wrote...

Most of the arguments against Refusal use knowledge that Shepard, the character, does not have to point out that refusal is the wrong choice. From Shepard's point of view, he needs to fire the catalyst, and there is no reason to believe anything the self-described creator of the Reapers says.

Thusly, it makes sense for him to "refuse" or ignore the Reaper A.I. and search for a way to fire the catalyst. Sadly, the story shows nothing after you choose to not just blindly trust the Reaper god, except that you lost, and some later cycle won.

gonna steal this from someone else:

destroy (starbrat lies)           - everyone dies
destroy (starbrat tells truth) - everyone apart from synthetics live
refuse (starbrat lies)             - everyone dies
refuse (starbrat tells truth)   - everyone dies

destroy has a 50% chance of success along with the other two crucible options whereas refuse has >1% chance of success, sorry but ill take my chances with destroy.

[Ninja Stan]

Folks, this is a reminder to please keep the quote pyramids under control. Quote only the post you're directly responding to, not the entire conversation to date. Bans have been handed out, and if you can't keep the quote pyramids under control, the thread will be locked.