861 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Aaleel wrote...

When the reapers first came through to attack Earth Hackett sacrificed an entire fleet to allow the others to live. Did Hackett commit murder, or some war crime? He made a sacrifice so that everyone wouldn't die. If he doesn't the fleet he sacrificed dies anyway, only difference is every other fleet dies as well.

All this talk of you committed murder or genocide is nonsense. The Geth are going to die whether you make the choice or not.

Lie.

The geth do not die if you pick Synthesis or Control.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Pangaron wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I pray that the galaxy doesn't ever have people like you in charge, people who think it's okay to sacrifice innocent people and cooperate with criminals just for their own personal safety. People who delegate responsibility and, oh yeah, people who think rogue AI are some kind of inevitability.

You sound like the type of person who would get a phone call from some kidnappers, and when they demand payment in exchange for your childs life. You would probably respond "I don't negotiate with terrorists", and simply hang up the phone. 

And you sound like someone who would kill an innocent random child in order to save yours.

But the opposing choice is for both to die, correct? So, kill one child, or kill two?

Hmm. Hard choice indeed.

[The Angry One]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I get that. It just doesn't matter at all. So you're saying it would be OK to destroy only if they didn't suggest it first?

Reverse psychology would work well against you.

It would be okay to destroy if it didn't arbitrarily murder my own allies for no reason.

They are only sapient if you give them the Reaper data. And lets compare. 

Billions of innocent sapients from one "species" vs Trillions or more members of multple species. 

That sure is a difficult decision right there.

The Geth have been sapient for 300 years. Before, they required networking to achieve it. That's the only difference.
And yes, it should be a difficult decision to murder billions of lives because the REAPERS are telling you to.

You do let them. You let them continue the cycle. You let them kill, and harvest everyone. You let them continue this for who knows how many more cycles until they're finally defeated.

I FIGHT them. I fight them to the end. I destroy as many of them as I can. I make them pay in blood for every life they take. So that the Catalyst will never control the future, and the next cycle will prevail.

The Destroyers have the "blood" of the Geth, and EDI on our hands. The Rejecters have the blood of Geth, EDI, and every species in the Galaxy on their hands. Yes it is every species, because even if they reapers leave the less advanced one alone for a bit, they won't once they develop sufficiently.

Then it starts again. All because you couldn't make a decision.

We make the decision to stand and fight. That's our decision. We refuse to be dictated to by the Reapers like you are.

You don't make it possible. Liara does, and only because she shows them how to make the Catalyst. The person who fixes everything doesn't do it on his/her own terms. That person does it on the Reapers terms, and makes a choice.

We destroy as many Reapers as we can, and weaken them enough.
Stop imposing twitter canon on the ending, the ending says nothing about the godforsaken Crucible. In fact, Liara specifically says it doesn't work.
Why the hell would the next cycle build a device they're flat out told shoots blanks?

If they could defeat the Reapers conventionally then they probably wouldn't be looking at Liara's message in the f

Liara's message is a warning to prepare.

Wow. Way to miss the point completely. I admit I am bigoted towards the Geth, and don't see them as real people. But that isn't the point. If the Geth were another species, including Humanity. I would still make the decision rather than have everyone else die.

It frightens me that you'd so casually sell a species to the enemy for a promise that the others will be saved.

Yes. Because even though I hate Synthesis, and dislike Control. Both are better than you just killing me/subjecting me to be harvested for no real reason. 

Again, I am killing nobody. I suggest you stop projecting the Catalyst's crimes onto Shepard because it's the only way you can feel comfortable doing it's bidding.

[The Genophage]

Aaleel wrote...

When the reapers first came through to attack Earth Hackett sacrificed an entire fleet to allow the others to live. Did Hackett commit murder, or some war crime? He made a sacrifice so that everyone wouldn't die. If he doesn't the fleet he sacrificed dies anyway, only difference is every other fleet dies as well.

All this talk of you committed murder or genocide is nonsense. The Geth are going to die whether you make the choice or not.

Lol, people trying to justify a whole species to a fleet.

[Massa FX]

Why is this thread so angry? We tear each other a new one over a $80 game? Debating genocide and at the same time verbally mauling each other? Is anyone else seeing extreme irony and hypocrisy here?

[Ryzaki]

Massa FX wrote...

Why is this thread so angry? We tear each other a new one over a $80 game? Debating genocide and at the same time verbally mauling each other? Is anyone else seeing extreme irony and hypocrisy here?

Nope the whole thing is a giant "STOP HAVING FUN GUYS" on both sides.

Though the personal attacks is utterly retarded. Some people need to learn it's a ****ing game.

[Carlthestrange]

Massa FX wrote...

Why is this thread so angry? We tear each other a new one over a $80 game? Debating genocide and at the same time verbally mauling each other? Is anyone else seeing extreme irony and hypocrisy here?

Its the superiority complex that controls many of the folks on this forum, I am afraid. Just stand away from the fire and laugh. Thats what I usually do.

[Aaleel]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

When the reapers first came through to attack Earth Hackett sacrificed an entire fleet to allow the others to live. Did Hackett commit murder, or some war crime? He made a sacrifice so that everyone wouldn't die. If he doesn't the fleet he sacrificed dies anyway, only difference is every other fleet dies as well.

All this talk of you committed murder or genocide is nonsense. The Geth are going to die whether you make the choice or not.

Lie.

The geth do not die if you pick Synthesis or Control.

Which of the three options is best is a discussion for another topic.  I'm talking about my reasoning for using the Crucible and picking destroy.  People say you committed genocide and murder, when the Geth are going to die if you use the crucible or if you refuse.  Refuse accomplishes nothing at all.

You no more committed murder than Hackett did when he sacrificed a fleet to allow the rest of the fleets to survive.

[Whatever42]

The Angry One wrote...

Without meta-gaming, for all I know, RGB leads to victory for the Reapers.
The Crucible is no longer destroyed if you wait around, and that was always just a silly out of place gameplay mechanic, so that point is moot.

Agreed. There is a difference between the best choice and the optimal ending. Refusal is the noble choice but it might not lead to the best outcome. Let's assume metagaming, though: what is the optimal outcome.

All endings are deeply uncomfortable. 

In one ending, we commit genocide to survive. And in the future, we risk a future where we create synthetics again. These synethics will know that we sacrificed the Geth and AIs to end the Reaper threat. The Catalysts prediction may become true.

In another ending, we play God with the Reapers. Very, very dangerous. Ultimately, the universe will be under Shepard's control and not free. Oh sure, he will help his friends but what about everyone else?

The synthesis ending is just genocide by another name. 

Refusal means galactic devestation and the death of Shepard and his friends. It also means the destruction of the Reapers and freedom for future generations. They will also know about the dangers of AIs and any AIs will know that organic life sacrificed itself in attempt to save it.

Refusal might mean the ultimate end to the cyle. Destruction may be good for us *now* but it might spell doom for future generations. Refusal might be the ultimate solution here.

[Aaleel]

The Genophage wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

When the reapers first came through to attack Earth Hackett sacrificed an entire fleet to allow the others to live. Did Hackett commit murder, or some war crime? He made a sacrifice so that everyone wouldn't die. If he doesn't the fleet he sacrificed dies anyway, only difference is every other fleet dies as well.

All this talk of you committed murder or genocide is nonsense. The Geth are going to die whether you make the choice or not.

Lol, people trying to justify a whole species to a fleet.

Well no, I'm not comparing a fleet to a species.

I'm comparing a situation where what is being sacrificed is going to die whether you use you plan of action or not.  One choice they die for something one choice they die for nothing.

Modifié par Aaleel, 04 juillet 2012 - 03:58 .

[The Genophage]

Aaleel wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

When the reapers first came through to attack Earth Hackett sacrificed an entire fleet to allow the others to live. Did Hackett commit murder, or some war crime? He made a sacrifice so that everyone wouldn't die. If he doesn't the fleet he sacrificed dies anyway, only difference is every other fleet dies as well.

All this talk of you committed murder or genocide is nonsense. The Geth are going to die whether you make the choice or not.

Lol, people trying to justify a whole species to a fleet.

Well no, I'm not comparing a fleet to a species.

I'm comparing a situation where what is being sacrificed is going to die whether you use you plan of action or not.  One choice they die for something one choice they die for nothing.

But the whole analogy is wrong because sacrificing a fleet does not equal commiting genocide and killing around 1.5 billion geth.

[Ryzaki]

Aaleel wrote...
Which of the three options is best is a discussion for another topic.  I'm talking about my reasoning for using the Crucible and picking destroy.  People say you committed genocide and murder, when the Geth are going to die if you use the crucible or if you refuse.  Refuse accomplishes nothing at all.

You no more committed murder than Hackett did when he sacrificed a fleet to allow the rest of the fleets to survive.

Pretty sure the fleet knew what they were going to do. It would be pretty douchey of Hackett to sacrifice them without even a good bye and thanks for holding the line speech.

And Shep can stop the Reapers without sacrificing the Geth. Tis not a forced option. Just like Shep can not pick refuse and not have the Reapers undefeated.

But yeah I see your reasoning. I just wish anti-refusers would see no all refusers don't have some moral high ground for picking their option. Some do I don't. And if they want to scream about letting reapers kill everyone and having no other choice hi pot meet kettle.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:01 .

[SMichelle]

Massa FX wrote...

Why is this thread so angry? We tear each other a new one over a $80 game? Debating genocide and at the same time verbally mauling each other? Is anyone else seeing extreme irony and hypocrisy here?

Because everyone wants to be right....I mean look at the title of this thread.


Personally -my decision was right for my Shepard - your decision can be right for yours.

[Aaleel]

The Genophage wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

When the reapers first came through to attack Earth Hackett sacrificed an entire fleet to allow the others to live. Did Hackett commit murder, or some war crime? He made a sacrifice so that everyone wouldn't die. If he doesn't the fleet he sacrificed dies anyway, only difference is every other fleet dies as well.

All this talk of you committed murder or genocide is nonsense. The Geth are going to die whether you make the choice or not.

Lol, people trying to justify a whole species to a fleet.

Well no, I'm not comparing a fleet to a species.

I'm comparing a situation where what is being sacrificed is going to die whether you use you plan of action or not.  One choice they die for something one choice they die for nothing.

But the whole analogy is wrong because sacrificing a fleet does not equal commiting genocide and killing around 1.5 billion geth.

They're going to die regardless.  Either quickly from the crucible or by being slowly and methodically reaped.  Only difference is, everyone else doesn't have to be slowly and methodically reaped as well.

[Whatever42]

Aaleel wrote...

They're going to die regardless.  Either quickly from the crucible or by being slowly and methodically reaped.  Only difference is, everyone else doesn't have to be slowly and methodically reaped as well.

We're all going to die regardless as well. Either messily by the Reapers, or messily by old age and infirmity.

Would you rather die at the hands of an enemy or betrayed by a friend?

[SMichelle]

Carlthestrange wrote...

Destroy: Kill all synthetics and EDI. You are a dick.
Control: Become the Reaper consciousness. Some people might see you as a dick.
Synthesis: Force unnatural evolution on an unsuspecting galaxy. You are a dick.
Refuse: Your cycle dies to protect your precious principles. You are a dick.

In terms of dickishness, Control seems like the least dickish. But even then, it seems that way a little.

Conclusion: No matter how you save the Galaxy, you are a dick. There is no "Best" ending. Its 4 choices of "Become the galaxies greatest ****."

Now that should be thread title! 

[The Genophage]

Aaleel wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

When the reapers first came through to attack Earth Hackett sacrificed an entire fleet to allow the others to live. Did Hackett commit murder, or some war crime? He made a sacrifice so that everyone wouldn't die. If he doesn't the fleet he sacrificed dies anyway, only difference is every other fleet dies as well.

All this talk of you committed murder or genocide is nonsense. The Geth are going to die whether you make the choice or not.

Lol, people trying to justify a whole species to a fleet.

Well no, I'm not comparing a fleet to a species.

I'm comparing a situation where what is being sacrificed is going to die whether you use you plan of action or not.  One choice they die for something one choice they die for nothing.

But the whole analogy is wrong because sacrificing a fleet does not equal commiting genocide and killing around 1.5 billion geth.

They're going to die regardless.  Either quickly from the crucible or by being slowly and methodically reaped.  Only difference is, everyone else doesn't have to be slowly and methodically reaped as well.

That's assuming if you know the Catalyst is telling the truth, and if they die they would die by fighting not because they were sold out .   

Modifié par The Genophage, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:09 .

[Ryzaki]

SMichelle wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Destroy: Kill all synthetics and EDI. You are a dick.
Control: Become the Reaper consciousness. Some people might see you as a dick.
Synthesis: Force unnatural evolution on an unsuspecting galaxy. You are a dick.
Refuse: Your cycle dies to protect your precious principles. You are a dick.

In terms of dickishness, Control seems like the least dickish. But even then, it seems that way a little.

Conclusion: No matter how you save the Galaxy, you are a dick. There is no "Best" ending. Its 4 choices of "Become the galaxies greatest ****."

Now that should be thread title! 

Let me tweak this

Control: Become the Reaper consciousness. Force your will on the galaxy. You are a dick.

Fix'd.

[ImperatorMortis]

The Angry One wrote...

It would be okay to destroy if it didn't arbitrarily murder my own allies for no reason.

 

It isn't for "no reason". The reason is so that everyone else can live.  

The Angry One wrote...
The Geth have been sapient for 300 years. Before, they required networking to achieve it. That's the only difference.
And yes, it should be a difficult decision to murder billions of lives because the REAPERS are telling you to.

I don't care if the Reapers told me to perform a one man play for them, as long as they get destroyed by the third act. 

The Angry One wrote...
I FIGHT them. I fight them to the end.
 

  
You're right. You fight them UP UNTIL the end. At the end you just stand there while they destroy everthing, and everyone. 

The Angry One wrote...
I destroy as many of them as I can. I make them pay in blood for every life they take. 

And then they use the species you doomed to make more Reapers.. Yay?

You think Reapers care that much for their own kind? When they know they're expendable, and can simply make more.   

The Angry One wrote...
So that the Catalyst will never control the future, and the next cycle will prevail.

 

The Catalyst controls the future, and the next cycle prevails because of the Catalyst. The Reapers have control either way. Whether you listen to them or oppose them. The Reapers are in control, until they're destroyed. 

I don't know why you're trying to convince yourself that you had some role in this. You effectively did nothing at the end. 

The Angry One wrote...
We make the decision to stand and fight. That's our decision. We refuse to be dictated to by the Reapers like you are.

 

And countless organics are killed, and tortured meantime until someone can rebuild the Catalyst, and make the decision you refused.

The Angry One wrote...
We destroy as many Reapers as we can, and weaken them enough.
 

  

The Angry One wrote...
It frightens me that you'd so casually sell a species to the enemy for a promise that the others will be saved.

 

Not casually. I would never be casual about such a thing, and I wouldn't take them up on their promise if I knew they were lying. But they weren't. And even if Space Child didn't tell me, I would know that we would not be able to win conventionally. I know we would be doomed if we didn't use the Catalyst.

Everyone knew it, its why it was being built in the first place. 

The Angry One wrote...
Again, I am killing nobody.

You are killing them. You're killing them by inaction. If you press the big red button that launches all the nukes, then you're a murderer. If you don't press the big red button that stops all the nukes when you are clearly able to, then you are a muderer. 

The Angry One wrote...
I suggest you stop projecting the Catalyst's crimes onto Shepard because it's the only way you can feel comfortable doing it's bidding

I feel comfotable with what I've done, and I have no problem defending my views. It is effortless on my part. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:11 .

[SMichelle]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

They're going to die regardless.  Either quickly from the crucible or by being slowly and methodically reaped.  Only difference is, everyone else doesn't have to be slowly and methodically reaped as well.

We're all going to die regardless as well. Either messily by the Reapers, or messily by old age and infirmity.

Would you rather die at the hands of an enemy or betrayed by a friend?

I choose to die of old age (maybe meet, fall in love, have a couple kids). And remember, the organics don't die, they become the next Reaper.  Personally, I would find death preferable.

(Although the laser beams are cool!)

[Aaleel]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

They're going to die regardless.  Either quickly from the crucible or by being slowly and methodically reaped.  Only difference is, everyone else doesn't have to be slowly and methodically reaped as well.

We're all going to die regardless as well. Either messily by the Reapers, or messily by old age and infirmity.

Would you rather die at the hands of an enemy or betrayed by a friend?

I would never want a friend of to sacrifice countless lives to save me, and if I thought he/she was going to do it I'd kill myself to remove the choice.  If I'm going to die anyways why would I want to someone to sacrifice everyone else just to extend my life only to be killed later.

[The Genophage]

SMichelle wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

They're going to die regardless.  Either quickly from the crucible or by being slowly and methodically reaped.  Only difference is, everyone else doesn't have to be slowly and methodically reaped as well.

We're all going to die regardless as well. Either messily by the Reapers, or messily by old age and infirmity.

Would you rather die at the hands of an enemy or betrayed by a friend?

I choose to die of old age (maybe meet, fall in love, have a couple kids). And remember, the organics don't die, they become the next Reaper.  Personally, I would find death preferable.

(Although the laser beams are cool!)

I'm not refusal pro, but i hope your ready to tell your children you commited genocide.

[GreyLycanTrope]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...
But that makes no sense. If you choose refusal you're not just throwing your "allies" under the bus you're throwing everyone under the bus. All for the sake of personal morality.

What about "the greater good"? Or "the ends justify the means"?

Again everyone get's thrown under the bus because of the "we're in this together" train of thought, we'll win or lose but will do it side by side. The ends DON'T justify the means, is my perspective. I'm not TIM.

You say "we're in this together", but I don't remember Shepard asking
everyone if they would like to die for Shepards sense of troll logic. 

Infact
I got the vibe that they DIDN'T want to die considering they spent so
much time fighting the Reapers, spending resources to make the Catalyst,
and the natural instinct to preserve their lives. 

You also say that "we win or lose, but we'll do it side by side". Life is not an Anime. Things don't work like that. 

If
shepard were to ask people if they would rather take one of the choices
given by the Reapers(one that includes destroying them), or to reject
the choices, and die anyway. 

How many people would be standing
in Shepards corner? How many? I doubt even Liara, Garrus, and Tali would
side with Shepard, and they're the most loyal members of his/her crew.

My Shepard has been fairly consistent with how she does things and her logic, they still wanted her to take the lead so...

Life isn't an anime. Mass Effect IS a video game there's no reason it can't work that way.

Garrus has been fairly clear that he's prepared to die fighting, so has evenone else as far as I know.

[Carlthestrange]

Ryzaki wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Destroy: Kill all synthetics and EDI. You are a dick.
Control: Become the Reaper consciousness. Some people might see you as a dick.
Synthesis: Force unnatural evolution on an unsuspecting galaxy. You are a dick.
Refuse: Your cycle dies to protect your precious principles. You are a dick.

In terms of dickishness, Control seems like the least dickish. But even then, it seems that way a little.

Conclusion: No matter how you save the Galaxy, you are a dick. There is no "Best" ending. Its 4 choices of "Become the galaxies greatest ****."

Now that should be thread title! 

Let me tweak this

Control: Become the Reaper consciousness. Force your will on the galaxy. You are a dick.

Fix'd.

...Hmm, that is a better fix, I admit.

[Aaleel]

The Genophage wrote...

That's assuming if you know the Catalyst is telling the truth, and if they die they would die by fighting not because they were sold out .   

Refuse Catalyst lying, everyone dies
Refuse Catalyst is not lying, everyone dies
Use Crucible, Catalyst is lying everyone dies
Use Crucible, Catalyst is not lying, victory

Only one choice even gives you a chance.

Modifié par Aaleel, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .