SMichelle wrote...
It's too bad more responses couldn't be like this on BSN. I agree to the earlier post, no matter what ending you choose your Shepard is a dick.
Modifié par Carlthestrange, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:44 .
The Genophage wrote...
Well I believe living is overrated, it should not be put ahead of genocideSMichelle wrote...
Personally I think death is overrated. I think living sounds much better., I'm personally of a control guy myself, control the Reapers and punch Khalisah over and over again.
It was deliberate and systematic.carrmatt91 wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
Maybe because they were attacked by Quarians, Damm Quarians, anyway, everything changes when you see them dying and sacrifing themselves for you.carrmatt91 wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
It's not someone elses random philosophy, many people wouldn't want to sell a species to win, maybe those people who are way to afraid of death, but I can honestly say that many would go down fighting rather than to sacrifice someone.ImperatorMortis wrote...
v TricKy v wrote...
Pssst! I give you a tip. Certain people in here are to stubborn to understand that.
I've give you a tip. Certain people can't understand that most people don't want to die for someone elses random philosophy.Greylycantrope wrote...
Doesn't seem pointless, the're still fighting for surivival even if they fail.
Hopeless yes, but they were prepared for that, there was no guarantee the Crucible would work in the first place, it was a gamble to begin with.
It is pointless. They all know that they can't win against the Reapers without the Catalyst. You're talking about fighting for survival yet you're spurning the thing that lets ensures that survival.
your talking about a race thats had no major peaceful contact with anyone for 300 years, and every attempt by the council to contact them has been met with hostilities, im pretty certain many would sacrifice the geth.
and after the quarians left the council tried to make peaceful contact. what happens next? the geth killed every. single. envoy.The Genophage wrote...
I'll say it again, I'm not Refusal pro, but choosing Destroy is Genocide. Whether or not you take pleasure or want to kill them or not, if you do, it's genocide. You say the intention is to kill the Reapers, but you know it will kill the Geth if you shoot the tube, it's genocide, please don't justify it and admit what you did had to be done, but it is genocide.
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]
was the geth destruction deliberate? NO
was it systematic (system to system, world to world)? NO
was it due to culture/race? NO
therefore it doesn't even fit the definition of genocide, its collateral damage.
genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd) — nthe policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group
True, but I do understand refusers, some people would do anything just to breathe.JG The Gamer wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
Well I believe living is overrated, it should not be put ahead of genocideSMichelle wrote...
Personally I think death is overrated. I think living sounds much better.
And in your story, the war did end today. Not 50,000 years from now. Today. Hopefully you told Harbinger to go mix you a drink once he finished fixing the relays.
The Genophage wrote...
It was deliberate and systematic.carrmatt91 wrote...
was the geth destruction deliberate? NO
was it systematic (system to system, world to world)? NO
was it due to culture/race? NO
therefore it doesn't even fit the definition of genocide, its collateral damage.
genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd) — nthe policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group
Modifié par carrmatt91, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:51 .
The Angry One wrote...
Gibb_Shepard wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
ImperatorMortis wrote...
Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
If you're a buddhist then it makes perfect sense. Die pure and uncorrupted, achieve Nirvana, while everyone else can come back in the next cycle.
This is bad too! So you're subjecting your religion on everyone else, and deciding for them(People who might not have the same belief or any belief at atll) that "it wouldn't be so bad to die".
That is so outrageous that I'm starting to feel a little upset.
The arrgoance of the "Refusers" is astounding, and troubling.
You're still engaging in the fallacy that Shepard is killing people as opposed to the Catalyst.
This is not a difficult concept. The Catalyst is the mass murdering butcher that's declared war on the galaxy.
RGB - Join the monster.
Reject - Fight the monster.
A crazy man with a portable truth detector hooked up to his head and his insane desciples have you and 10 others locked in a room with guns to your heads. The insane man, completely unable to to see this situation from a different perspective due to his past trauma (programming), then asks you a question.
"Let me kill this man here, and the rest of you will walk free." The truth detector rings positive.
"If you don't make a choice, i will kill every single one of you here." There it goes again.
What do you do? Let one man die for the rest of your sakes? Or make all of you die to keep your "morality" intact? Also, knowing full well that this man is giving you a choice that can save everyone in the room except one man, who is truly committing the mass murder? The man whom is fundamentally a proxy, or you, the controller of said proxy?
Just pray that the galaxy doesn't have these "refusers" in charge when we eventually get overun by rogue AI.
The man is. Who is he to demand I make that choice, and how am I responsible for that?
Moreover, false analogy. Shepard doesn't know the Catalyst is telling the truth, and don't even pretend they do.
I pray that the galaxy doesn't ever have people like you in charge, people who think it's okay to sacrifice innocent people and cooperate with criminals just for their own personal safety. People who delegate responsibility and, oh yeah, people who think rogue AI are some kind of inevitability.
Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:55 .
SMichelle wrote...
It's too bad more responses couldn't be like this on BSN. I agree to the earlier post, no matter what ending you choose your Shepard is a dick.
(I can't fight it anymore! I've been dying to say; "I'm Commander Shepard and I'm the biggest dick in the galaxy" I know it's immature, but I just couldn't help myself)
shodiswe wrote...
Does truth matter when you know the reapers will win if you don't pick a choice? There is no way in hell or otherwise that the galaxy can defeat them conventionaly... Do you doubt undeniable logic, the catalyst doesn't need to choose, it has an option in motion. If you don't pick it's choice of solution wins the day. By not picking you submit yourself to the catalysts choice.
Not picking a choice isn't the same as denying the Catalyst, it's agreeing with the catalysts current method no matter how you phrase it. You are saying that you prefer the reaping cycle over all three choices presented to you. It's better to see trillions meet a certain death than play it's games. The catalysts lies or truthfullness has nothing to do with the only three choices compared to not pickign one of them... Refusal isn't about truth, it's about not doing what you were supposed to do, save as many as possible, you're allowing your pride cost trillions their lives.. No other moralities can possibly outweigh that unless it's personal pride and your personal pride is (to you) worth more than other peoples lives.
How would you feel if president Bush had announced that due the fact that his political opposition had forced him into a corner where he had to choose between options he didn't like, he has therefor decided to blow up the planet instead to avoid said defeat!?!
Modifié par carrmatt91, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:57 .
Dictionary: Deliberate- Done consciously and intentionallycarrmatt91 wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
It was deliberate and systematic.carrmatt91 wrote...
was the geth destruction deliberate? NO
was it systematic (system to system, world to world)? NO
was it due to culture/race? NO
therefore it doesn't even fit the definition of genocide, its collateral damage.
genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd) — nthe policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group
deliberate implies intention, there was no intention of killing the geth, starbrat says all synthetics will be targeted, it could be the hardware survives as geth are software, sure shepard knows that the geth will die but you cant claim deliberate as shepard did not fire the crucible with the aim of killing only the geth. therefore byproduct > deliberate
systematic - nope wrong again, systematic implies you looked under every nook and cranny to find any final survivers and then kill them.
eg. the H-bombs on japan, they killed a lot of people instantaneous but it wasn't systematic, it would have been systematic had american troops gone in instead and gone house to house room to room killing everyone they saw
edit: removed pyramid
Modifié par The Genophage, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:57 .
carrmatt91 wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
Does truth matter when you know the reapers will win if you don't pick a choice? There is no way in hell or otherwise that the galaxy can defeat them conventionaly... Do you doubt undeniable logic, the catalyst doesn't need to choose, it has an option in motion. If you don't pick it's choice of solution wins the day. By not picking you submit yourself to the catalysts choice.
Not picking a choice isn't the same as denying the Catalyst, it's agreeing with the catalysts current method no matter how you phrase it. You are saying that you prefer the reaping cycle over all three choices presented to you. It's better to see trillions meet a certain death than play it's games. The catalysts lies or truthfullness has nothing to do with the only three choices compared to not pickign one of them... Refusal isn't about truth, it's about not doing what you were supposed to do, save as many as possible, you're allowing your pride cost trillions their lives.. No other moralities can possibly outweigh that unless it's personal pride and your personal pride is (to you) worth more than other peoples lives.
How would you feel if president Bush had announced that due the fact that his political opposition had forced him into a corner where he had to choose between options he didn't like, he has therefor decided to blow up the planet instead to avoid said defeat!?!
actually, refusing to choose is the same as agreeing with the catalyst's original plan as you are allowing it to continue the cycle even though you have the power to end it.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:59 .
Ryzaki wrote...
carrmatt91 wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
Does truth matter when you know the reapers will win if you don't pick a choice? There is no way in hell or otherwise that the galaxy can defeat them conventionaly... Do you doubt undeniable logic, the catalyst doesn't need to choose, it has an option in motion. If you don't pick it's choice of solution wins the day. By not picking you submit yourself to the catalysts choice.
Not picking a choice isn't the same as denying the Catalyst, it's agreeing with the catalysts current method no matter how you phrase it. You are saying that you prefer the reaping cycle over all three choices presented to you. It's better to see trillions meet a certain death than play it's games. The catalysts lies or truthfullness has nothing to do with the only three choices compared to not pickign one of them... Refusal isn't about truth, it's about not doing what you were supposed to do, save as many as possible, you're allowing your pride cost trillions their lives.. No other moralities can possibly outweigh that unless it's personal pride and your personal pride is (to you) worth more than other peoples lives.
How would you feel if president Bush had announced that due the fact that his political opposition had forced him into a corner where he had to choose between options he didn't like, he has therefor decided to blow up the planet instead to avoid said defeat!?!
actually, refusing to choose is the same as agreeing with the catalyst's original plan as you are allowing it to continue the cycle even though you have the power to end it.
Then destroy is genocide as you have the chance to avoid it via Synthesis and Control. <_<
Ryzaki wrote...
carrmatt91 wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
Does truth matter when you know the reapers will win if you don't pick a choice? There is no way in hell or otherwise that the galaxy can defeat them conventionaly... Do you doubt undeniable logic, the catalyst doesn't need to choose, it has an option in motion. If you don't pick it's choice of solution wins the day. By not picking you submit yourself to the catalysts choice.
Not picking a choice isn't the same as denying the Catalyst, it's agreeing with the catalysts current method no matter how you phrase it. You are saying that you prefer the reaping cycle over all three choices presented to you. It's better to see trillions meet a certain death than play it's games. The catalysts lies or truthfullness has nothing to do with the only three choices compared to not pickign one of them... Refusal isn't about truth, it's about not doing what you were supposed to do, save as many as possible, you're allowing your pride cost trillions their lives.. No other moralities can possibly outweigh that unless it's personal pride and your personal pride is (to you) worth more than other peoples lives.
How would you feel if president Bush had announced that due the fact that his political opposition had forced him into a corner where he had to choose between options he didn't like, he has therefor decided to blow up the planet instead to avoid said defeat!?!
actually, refusing to choose is the same as agreeing with the catalyst's original plan as you are allowing it to continue the cycle even though you have the power to end it.
Then destroy is genocide as you have the chance to avoid it via Synthesis or Control. <_< Per your own logic.
shodiswe wrote...
Yes, it is, but it's still better than a galaxy wide genocide. Im pro control or Synthesis, destory would be a third choice...
ughhh people who find that refusing means Shepard commits genocideshodiswe wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
carrmatt91 wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
Does truth matter when you know the reapers will win if you don't pick a choice? There is no way in hell or otherwise that the galaxy can defeat them conventionaly... Do you doubt undeniable logic, the catalyst doesn't need to choose, it has an option in motion. If you don't pick it's choice of solution wins the day. By not picking you submit yourself to the catalysts choice.
Not picking a choice isn't the same as denying the Catalyst, it's agreeing with the catalysts current method no matter how you phrase it. You are saying that you prefer the reaping cycle over all three choices presented to you. It's better to see trillions meet a certain death than play it's games. The catalysts lies or truthfullness has nothing to do with the only three choices compared to not pickign one of them... Refusal isn't about truth, it's about not doing what you were supposed to do, save as many as possible, you're allowing your pride cost trillions their lives.. No other moralities can possibly outweigh that unless it's personal pride and your personal pride is (to you) worth more than other peoples lives.
How would you feel if president Bush had announced that due the fact that his political opposition had forced him into a corner where he had to choose between options he didn't like, he has therefor decided to blow up the planet instead to avoid said defeat!?!
actually, refusing to choose is the same as agreeing with the catalyst's original plan as you are allowing it to continue the cycle even though you have the power to end it.
Then destroy is genocide as you have the chance to avoid it via Synthesis or Control. <_< Per your own logic.
Yes, it is, but it's still better than a galaxy wide genocide. Im pro control or Synthesis, destory would be a third choice...
The Genophage wrote...
Dictionary: Deliberate- Done consciously and intentionallycarrmatt91 wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
It was deliberate and systematic.carrmatt91 wrote...
was the geth destruction deliberate? NO
was it systematic (system to system, world to world)? NO
was it due to culture/race? NO
therefore it doesn't even fit the definition of genocide, its collateral damage.
genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd) — nthe policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group
deliberate implies intention, there was no intention of killing the geth, starbrat says all synthetics will be targeted, it could be the hardware survives as geth are software, sure shepard knows that the geth will die but you cant claim deliberate as shepard did not fire the crucible with the aim of killing only the geth. therefore byproduct > deliberate
systematic - nope wrong again, systematic implies you looked under every nook and cranny to find any final survivers and then kill them.
eg. the H-bombs on japan, they killed a lot of people instantaneous but it wasn't systematic, it would have been systematic had american troops gone in instead and gone house to house room to room killing everyone they saw
edit: removed pyramid
Dictionary: Consciously- Having an awareness, Especially aware, Intentionally conceived or done, Subjectively known[/b], etc. You knew wha was going to happen and did it.
Ryzaki wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
Yes, it is, but it's still better than a galaxy wide genocide. Im pro control or Synthesis, destory would be a third choice...
I don't follow that logic however. Just point out the poster I quoted logic works against him/her. As for Synthesis ugh. I find that far more disturbing than refuse could ever be. Destroy > Control > Refuse > Mission Failed > Turn off the game > Synthesis.
The Genophage wrote...
ughhh people who find that refusing means Shepard commits genocideshodiswe wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
carrmatt91 wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
Does truth matter when you know the reapers will win if you don't pick a choice? There is no way in hell or otherwise that the galaxy can defeat them conventionaly... Do you doubt undeniable logic, the catalyst doesn't need to choose, it has an option in motion. If you don't pick it's choice of solution wins the day. By not picking you submit yourself to the catalysts choice.
Not picking a choice isn't the same as denying the Catalyst, it's agreeing with the catalysts current method no matter how you phrase it. You are saying that you prefer the reaping cycle over all three choices presented to you. It's better to see trillions meet a certain death than play it's games. The catalysts lies or truthfullness has nothing to do with the only three choices compared to not pickign one of them... Refusal isn't about truth, it's about not doing what you were supposed to do, save as many as possible, you're allowing your pride cost trillions their lives.. No other moralities can possibly outweigh that unless it's personal pride and your personal pride is (to you) worth more than other peoples lives.
How would you feel if president Bush had announced that due the fact that his political opposition had forced him into a corner where he had to choose between options he didn't like, he has therefor decided to blow up the planet instead to avoid said defeat!?!
actually, refusing to choose is the same as agreeing with the catalyst's original plan as you are allowing it to continue the cycle even though you have the power to end it.
Then destroy is genocide as you have the chance to avoid it via Synthesis or Control. <_< Per your own logic.
Yes, it is, but it's still better than a galaxy wide genocide. Im pro control or Synthesis, destory would be a third choice...
[/quote]
shodiswe wrote...
Synthesis may seem weird but everyone seems to be themselves and seems to be livign their normal lives only with access to mroe knowledge science technology and solutions to make life better.
What would be disturbing is if it had been invasive to their personalities other than the changes brought by better understanding and new tech.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:09 .
Indeed the level of loyality from some people on the threads towards the Geth is endearing, but it does come of somewhat naïve, what some people have seemly forgotten (if this has come up before, sorry, havn't read all 30 pages) but is that its only Shepard and his ME2 crew that have a close relationship with the Geth, and perhaps the Quarians if peace has been achieved between the two races.ImperatorMortis wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
How so? Is a united galaxy that will fight to the death for each other. I think that some would obviously oppose the idea, but some would be glad that they didn't commit major genocide to win a war and that they will fight to the death and not sell someone out.
I honestly don't mean to be rude, but this is so insanely naive that its making my head spin.
You think anyone would care that they had to destroyed synthetics so everyone else can live. Really?
This sense of comradery, and honor does not exist. People want to live. Thats all that matters to most people.
-snip-
I though it was obvious why it was systematic but oh well. I don't know why your getting so irritated, I personally choose Control, All I'm saying is that refusal have good reasons, also your doing a lot of headcannons, if you can say they did sacrifice their version of the geth, i can say who said they didn't win the war conventionally or some of ours survive till the next cycle, or why can't i say when i choose control i sent all reapers to the sun. Also, your logic is that whatever Javik says its right, ughhh.carrmatt91 wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
Dictionary: Deliberate- Done consciously and intentionallycarrmatt91 wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
It was deliberate and systematic.carrmatt91 wrote...
was the geth destruction deliberate? NO
was it systematic (system to system, world to world)? NO
was it due to culture/race? NO
therefore it doesn't even fit the definition of genocide, its collateral damage.
genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd) — nthe policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group
deliberate implies intention, there was no intention of killing the geth, starbrat says all synthetics will be targeted, it could be the hardware survives as geth are software, sure shepard knows that the geth will die but you cant claim deliberate as shepard did not fire the crucible with the aim of killing only the geth. therefore byproduct > deliberate
systematic - nope wrong again, systematic implies you looked under every nook and cranny to find any final survivers and then kill them.
eg. the H-bombs on japan, they killed a lot of people instantaneous but it wasn't systematic, it would have been systematic had american troops gone in instead and gone house to house room to room killing everyone they saw
edit: removed pyramid
Dictionary: Consciously- Having an awareness, Especially aware, Intentionally conceived or done, Subjectively known[/b], etc. You knew wha was going to happen and did it.
consciously AND intentionally, you just f*ucked your own argument
and seriously why are we debating this? its a galactic war the likes of which noone in our cycle save javik has ever seen, where we are fighting an unconventional and conventionally unbeatable enemy. and your given an unconventional chance of victory and you refuse on principles, i think javik is in more of a position to make the final choice and we all know what he would have chosen.
"stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters"
your saying you refuse to win a war if it means sacrificing one synthetic race but through your inaction you condemn every race to death or worse just so the next cycle can make the choice you could have made? whos to say they didn't sacrifice their version of the geth if they had one?
Modifié par The Genophage, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:09 .
Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:12 .
No it doesn't. Procreation is not the Reapers' primary motive but a byproduct of their programming. Numbers are irrelevant unless they physically run out of Reapers while trying to kill everyone.The Angry One wrote...
One Sovereign class Reaper per cycle vs. several dozen killed before the battle of Earth.
Attrition remains in our favour.
Yes. That's what "can't win" means.Can't win, don't try?
You do not know this. Stop inventing facts to support your argument.The Catalyst is maliciously forcing us to choose when it could just relent
So lets say it was the Krogan, a lot of people still find them hostile, does it justify to kill them.Chaia wrote...
Indeed the level of loyality from some people on the threads towards the Geth is endearing, but it does come of somewhat naïve, what some people have seemly forgotten (if this has come up before, sorry, havn't read all 30 pages) but is that its only Shepard and his ME2 crew that have a close relationship with the Geth, and perhaps the Quarians if peace has been achieved between the two races.ImperatorMortis wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
How so? Is a united galaxy that will fight to the death for each other. I think that some would obviously oppose the idea, but some would be glad that they didn't commit major genocide to win a war and that they will fight to the death and not sell someone out.
I honestly don't mean to be rude, but this is so insanely naive that its making my head spin.
You think anyone would care that they had to destroyed synthetics so everyone else can live. Really?
This sense of comradery, and honor does not exist. People want to live. Thats all that matters to most people.
-snip-
Otherwise do people really think the adverage Asari, Turian, Salarian, Krogan etc etc is going too care about distroying race that was attacking the Citadel just two years ago (who were fighting for a Reaper) whilst watching their homeworlds burn and their families being slaughtered?
Personally I think pretty much all of them would be shooting the tube, distorying the Reapers and Geth alike, without a backwards glance.
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