861 réponses à ce sujet

[The Genophage]

Armass81 wrote...

So youre ok with the death of dozens of races over the death of geth, if you just refuse? At least we died free... i doubt trillions of dead people would have appreciated that, especially if victory was within our grasp...

And your okay with commiting genocide to ensure victory.

[Ryzaki]

SMichelle wrote...

Gabylan001 wrote...

"It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth.
- John F. Kennedy

There are no facts, only interpretations.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.
- Helen Keller


See, I can do it too.  Seriously.  How are you living on your knees if you make a choice?  Dying sounds all romantic - fighting the good fight and all.  But let's remember you are allowing all - ALL - advanced life to be wiped from existance.

Every man.  Every woman.  Every child is no more. 

My Shepard can live with her choice - and others will live because of her.

I thought that living on knees bit was for Synthesis not all the endings? 

And yes Synthesis is very much living on your knees. You didn't stop the Reapers. You changed every single being to conform to their wishes. The original species is no more. (To me you've pretty much killed them and huskified their corpses.) and the Reapers face ZERO repruccusions.

But YMMV on that matter.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:01 .

[SMichelle]

Ryzaki wrote...

[Armass81]

The Genophage wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

So youre ok with the death of dozens of races over the death of geth, if you just refuse? At least we died free... i doubt trillions of dead people would have appreciated that, especially if victory was within our grasp...

And your okay with commiting genocide to ensure victory.

Needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. If theres no other way, id press the button.

And ofc you dont need to kill anyone, just take control of the reapers. Only thing that ceases to exist is that insane AI as you replace it.

Modifié par Armass81, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:07 .

[The Genophage]

Armass81 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

So youre ok with the death of dozens of races over the death of geth, if you just refuse? At least we died free... i doubt trillions of dead people would have appreciated that, especially if victory was within our grasp...

And your okay with commiting genocide to ensure victory.

Needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. If theres no other way, id press the button.

And ofc you dont need to kill anyone, just take control of the reapers.

I did, But I understand why refusers make their choice. Again, some people will do anything just to breathe another day.

[Ryzaki]

SMichelle wrote...

It had to be done.

[SMichelle]

Ryzaki wrote...


I thought that dying on knees bit was for Synthesis not all the endings? 

And yes Synthesis is very much living on your knees. You didn't stop the Reapers. You changed every single being to conform to their wishes. The original species is no more. (To me you've pretty much killed them and huskified their corpses.)

But YMMV on that matter.

I can only see my Shepard choosing destroy.  Although it appears that BioWare is pushing the Synthesis ending I find that choice the most morally abhorrent.  (I think it totally goes against the themes of ME1 and ME2).

My Shep would LOVE to tell the Catalyst to F off.  However, far too much - far too many people are counting on her for her to do that.

[Quackjack]

Destroy renders Refuse useless
*Flame shield*

[Ryzaki]

SMichelle wrote...
I can only see my Shepard choosing destroy.  Although it appears that BioWare is pushing the Synthesis ending I find that choice the most morally abhorrent.  (I think it totally goes against the themes of ME1 and ME2).

My Shep would LOVE to tell the Catalyst to F off.  However, far too much - far too many people are counting on her for her to do that.

I disagree with the first bit but so so much with the second. Synthesis is just...wut...WUT.

I really don't see why Shep can't do that and still pick Destroy. Bleh.

Though I have to admit my renedouche is beyond pissed when he sees starbrat. At that point he's like F this, F everyone where's the goddamn nuke button? Anderson's dead, TIM's dead, he's about to die. And he's...yeah.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:08 .

[The Genophage]

Ryzaki wrote...

SMichelle wrote...
I can only see my Shepard choosing destroy.  Although it appears that BioWare is pushing the Synthesis ending I find that choice the most morally abhorrent.  (I think it totally goes against the themes of ME1 and ME2).

My Shep would LOVE to tell the Catalyst to F off.  However, far too much - far too many people are counting on her for her to do that.

I disagree with the first bit but so so much with the second. Synthesis is just...wut...WUT.

I really don't see why Shep can't do that and still pick Destroy. Bleh.

Though I have to admit my renedouche is beyond pissed when he sees starbrat. At that point he's like F this, F everyone where's the goddamn nuke button? Anderson's dead, TIM's dead, he's about to die. And he's...yeah.

[RinuCZ]

 I'm partly in a favor of Refusal ending and I'd like to add a pragmatic opinion.

The main story of ME3 is wrapped around a desperate hope invested into a product of unknown origin and unknown functionality. Literally, everybody is forcing Shepard to activate it no matter what. Even Shepard silently agrees due to auto-dialogue or due to choices like "Yes" and "Yes, sir".

The antagonist is just an interface with pre-designed inputs and the situation indicates Shepard either does compromise her beliefs or the current cycle most likely don't survive. Refuse seems to be the closest to a mentality of previous installments but it also requires a trade-off to pick it up, even without knowning an outcome. Shepard *knows* she was put in the charge to activate the Catalyst/Crucible, not to solve the situation. By morally refusing it, she deliberately abandons her assigned role and deliberately, even if indirectly, kill a chance of survival of others. It's "resistance is futile" theme in action.

There is a clear shift from ME1/2 "There is a problem, investigate it and do as you see fit" to ME3 "You do what you were told to do" tone. Personally, I consider the execution of that narrative transition to be a root of problem but I digress.

I may be glad there is this option because it's at least a gleam of what my Paragon protagonist used to be. Sadly, her input came too late and thus it's really just another no-choice choice.

Saying that the epilogue X is superior because <insert moral/social/pragmatic/whatever reason> is a sort of hyperbolical. From an objective point of view, we'd sort all options according their bottom EMS line.

Modifié par RinuCZ, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:18 .

[SirCroft]

The geth and EDI aren't alive. Period.
Ask anyone in the galaxy if they'd like to die to keep their "honor". That might be Shepard's mindset, but it's one he can't force upon the entire galaxy.

Modifié par SirCroft, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:32 .

[shodiswe]

The Genophage wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Sure Mr Catalyst, that sounds cool, don't let me get in your way. I could stop you by shotign that relay, electricutingmyself and erasing you from existance or jump into that beam and end this once and for all... but meh... this is too much fun! IT's you doing this therefor it's not my problem....

Hacket: what's going on down there, people are dying out here!!

Shepard: I like it this way, it's not my fault people are dying

Shepard: *toses the comm of the platform and sits down waiting for death to approach as the crucible powers down*

Your metagaming, thats assuming you know the Catalyst is telling the truth. Your arguement is moot.

There are reaper fleets all over the galaxy, around and on just about every inhabited planet, attacking Earth orbit and landing a team in London almost wiped out all galactic fleets and armys, how can shepard not know they are close to getting anihilated and that it is unavoidable, garrus tells you how hopless it is, Liara, Hackett, Anderson, I cant think of a single person in the whole of ME3 that says they belive it can be done conventionaly. They belive in shepard and the crucible though... And shepard lets everyone down by rejecting the last hope to save everyone.
Only a complete retard would think that the galaxy stands a chance at a conventional victory when standign there with the catalyst.. Nothing else matters, if the catalyst lies or not matters not, everyone will die unless you do something desperate... The Galaxy can't save itself.

Let me borrow a line from TAO here 

So taking a chance on following the Reapers = good.
Taking a chance on relying on your allies to fight the Reapers = bad.

Meh, Your logic not mine.

You don't seem to understand the seriousness of the situation..... You're allies and friends/family and what not are dying, the satand no chance to survive what so ever unless you change the rules of the game... Those three choices offers that opportunity.

Immagine everyone being in a gigantinc meat grinder with no chance to to escape, all you have to do is slam youself into the electrical system afew meters below and stop the grinder, dying in the process.... If you don't everyone will die including you..

[Rhiens VI]

The Angry One wrote...
The Crucible is no longer destroyed if you wait around

Really? Interesting!  I wonder why did they change that part...

[The Genophage]

shodiswe wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Sure Mr Catalyst, that sounds cool, don't let me get in your way. I could stop you by shotign that relay, electricutingmyself and erasing you from existance or jump into that beam and end this once and for all... but meh... this is too much fun! IT's you doing this therefor it's not my problem....

Hacket: what's going on down there, people are dying out here!!

Shepard: I like it this way, it's not my fault people are dying

Shepard: *toses the comm of the platform and sits down waiting for death to approach as the crucible powers down*

Your metagaming, thats assuming you know the Catalyst is telling the truth. Your arguement is moot.

There are reaper fleets all over the galaxy, around and on just about every inhabited planet, attacking Earth orbit and landing a team in London almost wiped out all galactic fleets and armys, how can shepard not know they are close to getting anihilated and that it is unavoidable, garrus tells you how hopless it is, Liara, Hackett, Anderson, I cant think of a single person in the whole of ME3 that says they belive it can be done conventionaly. They belive in shepard and the crucible though... And shepard lets everyone down by rejecting the last hope to save everyone.
Only a complete retard would think that the galaxy stands a chance at a conventional victory when standign there with the catalyst.. Nothing else matters, if the catalyst lies or not matters not, everyone will die unless you do something desperate... The Galaxy can't save itself.

Let me borrow a line from TAO here 

So taking a chance on following the Reapers = good.
Taking a chance on relying on your allies to fight the Reapers = bad.

Meh, Your logic not mine.

You don't seem to understand the seriousness of the situation..... You're allies and friends/family and what not are dying, the satand no chance to survive what so ever unless you change the rules of the game... Those three choices offers that opportunity.

Immagine everyone being in a gigantinc meat grinder with no chance to to escape, all you have to do is slam youself into the electrical system afew meters below and stop the grinder, dying in the process.... If you don't everyone will die including you..

Again your logic is taking a chance on a reaper is good rather than fighting. kk.

[tanisha__unknown]

shodiswe wrote...
.

Does truth matter when you know the reapers will win if you don't pick a choice? There is no way in hell or otherwise that the galaxy can defeat them conventionaly... Do you doubt undeniable logic, the catalyst doesn't need to choose, it has an option in motion. If you don't pick it's choice of solution wins the day. By not picking you submit yourself to the catalysts choice.
Not picking a choice isn't the same as denying the Catalyst, it's agreeing with the catalysts current method no matter how you phrase it. You are saying that you prefer the reaping cycle over all three choices presented to you. It's better to see trillions meet a certain death than play it's games.  The catalysts lies or truthfullness has nothing to do with the only three choices compared to not pickign one of them... Refusal isn't about truth, it's about not doing what you were supposed to do, save as many as possible, you're allowing your pride cost trillions their lives.. No other moralities can possibly outweigh that unless it's personal pride and your personal pride is (to you) worth more than other peoples lives.
How would you feel if president Bush had announced that due the fact that his political opposition had forced him into a corner where he had to choose between options he didn't like, he has therefor decided to blow up the planet instead to avoid said defeat!?!

That's even bigger horsecrap than any of the catalyst's utterings like: we don't wage war, we're merely a cleansing fire.

[SMichelle]

Jinx1720 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
.

Does truth matter when you know the reapers will win if you don't pick a choice? There is no way in hell or otherwise that the galaxy can defeat them conventionaly... Do you doubt undeniable logic, the catalyst doesn't need to choose, it has an option in motion. If you don't pick it's choice of solution wins the day. By not picking you submit yourself to the catalysts choice.
Not picking a choice isn't the same as denying the Catalyst, it's agreeing with the catalysts current method no matter how you phrase it. You are saying that you prefer the reaping cycle over all three choices presented to you. It's better to see trillions meet a certain death than play it's games.  The catalysts lies or truthfullness has nothing to do with the only three choices compared to not pickign one of them... Refusal isn't about truth, it's about not doing what you were supposed to do, save as many as possible, you're allowing your pride cost trillions their lives.. No other moralities can possibly outweigh that unless it's personal pride and your personal pride is (to you) worth more than other peoples lives.
How would you feel if president Bush had announced that due the fact that his political opposition had forced him into a corner where he had to choose between options he didn't like, he has therefor decided to blow up the planet instead to avoid said defeat!?!

That's even bigger horsecrap than any of the catalyst's utterings like: we don't wage war, we're merely a cleansing fire.

Eehh... I don't understand what you're saying.  Isn't that *exactly* what happened?  If you don't pick A, B, or C the cycle continues.  The Reapers reap all advanced organic life, and are not stopped until someone in the next cycle uses the Crucible.

[babachewie]

People seem to refuse cause they believe they are submitting to the catalyst options when in fact the Catalyst doesn't have anything to do with the options. The options were put there by the other cycles to either control or destroy the reapers. The Protheans had a internal struggle with each other just to determine what course of action to take. The Protheans who backed control were indoctrinated like cerberus. They fought so much with each other they didn't even get to use the crucible and were destroyed. The game is all about cycles and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Catalyst is the citadel. The ones who came up with the plans for the crucible needed something to amplify its power and the Citadel being the central hub on the entire mass relay network, was added to the schematics. Nobody knew about the AI living in it. Thats how Synthesis was added once it was attached. Once the crucible was attached to it, it ran into an unknown, the AI, which changed it and gave the crucible a new option. You're not submitting to choices that wasn't even his in the first place. Refuse is ignorant knowing this.

[The Genophage]

babachewie wrote...

People seem to refuse cause they believe they are submitting to the catalyst options when in fact the Catalyst doesn't have anything to do with the options. The options were put there by the other cycles to either control or destroy the reapers. The Protheans had a internal struggle with each other just to determine what course of action to take. The Protheans who backed control were indoctrinated like cerberus. They fought so much with each other they didn't even get to use the crucible and were destroyed. The game is all about cycles and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Catalyst is the citadel. The ones who came up with the plans for the crucible needed something to amplify its power and the Citadel being the central hub on the entire mass relay network, was added to the schematics. Nobody knew about the AI living in it. Thats how Synthesis was added once it was attached. Once the crucible was attached to it, it ran into an unknown, the AI, which changed it and gave the crucible a new option. You're not submitting to choices that wasn't even his in the first place. Refuse is ignorant knowing this.

I would argue but it would be useless, The protheans never finished the crucible.

[babachewie]

The Genophage wrote...

babachewie wrote...

People seem to refuse cause they believe they are submitting to the catalyst options when in fact the Catalyst doesn't have anything to do with the options. The options were put there by the other cycles to either control or destroy the reapers. The Protheans had a internal struggle with each other just to determine what course of action to take. The Protheans who backed control were indoctrinated like cerberus. They fought so much with each other they didn't even get to use the crucible and were destroyed. The game is all about cycles and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Catalyst is the citadel. The ones who came up with the plans for the crucible needed something to amplify its power and the Citadel being the central hub on the entire mass relay network, was added to the schematics. Nobody knew about the AI living in it. Thats how Synthesis was added once it was attached. Once the crucible was attached to it, it ran into an unknown, the AI, which changed it and gave the crucible a new option. You're not submitting to choices that wasn't even his in the first place. Refuse is ignorant knowing this.

I would argue but it would be useless, The protheans never finished the crucible.

Really? Well you should replay the Thessia mission to be sure. or just read the wiki http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Crucible

Modifié par babachewie, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:36 .

[Ryzaki]

...yeah they never completed it.

You're told this multiple times in game.

Thessia even tells you they had fighting within before they could complete it with the Catalyst.

Mostly done =/= done.

[Oldbones2]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

A crazy lawyer hating gunman is facing down six of you but only has five bullets. You're all wielding knives. If he doesn't shoot all of you, he's dead. He knows that he can't win. He bargains with you. 

1) You can all agree to go to law school, so that lawyer can never take advantage of you with his legal trickery
2) You can agree to join and lead his crazy cult but he'll keep the gun
3) You can shoot your lawyer

Or you have:

4) You can rush him, knowing that most of you may die but you will undoubtedly get him in the end.

Now, we can reason that lawyers aren't really people and so shoot him but some of us like lawyers and may regard that as a cowardly and heinous act. 

Leting him keep the gun is very suspicious... 

Forcing your friends at gunpoint to go to law school is a horrible fate, which many may regard as worse than death.

I think the true "paragon" choice is rushing him.

That's not the same thing.


It's more like the lawyer gives all of you knives and keeps a gun with plenty of bullets.

You know that if you rush him, you have an almost negligible chance of saving anyone.  Most likely he will kill you all regardless and nothing you do can stop that.

But he offers you a choice. 

If you kill one of the other people with knives (your friends, who have helped you get this far.  Who trust you.  Who believe in you), then the rest can walk away scot free.

Or you can take a gun and go do exactly what he did to you, .... to someone else.


It's really a Hobson's choice.  A choice wherein there is really only one option because the other is made to be so undesirable that it isn't a choice at all.

[incinerator950]

Die free so the next Cycle can hit the on button on the Crucible!

[Oldbones2]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

Who CARES?! As long as the Reapers are gone, and everyone is still alive, and well; it DOES NOT MATTER what methods you use. [/quote]


Don't you get it TAO?


The ends justify the means....


Clearly that isn't a slippery slope of moral justification for objective evil done in the name of subjective good.

[N-Seven]

It's interesting that in the refusal ending, the entity that is willing to change and converse, and concede, ends up being the machine and supposedly the 'brat'.

While the inflexible, petulant, and absolutist one, is Shepard.

Who's really the brat?

Modifié par N-Seven, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:32 .