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Reasons why Refusal is the right ending. "Die free!"


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#851
Oldbones2

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N-Seven wrote...

It's interesting that in the refusal ending, the entity that is willing to change and converse, and concede, ends up being the machine and supposedly the 'brat'.

While the inflexible, petulant, and absolutist one, is Shepard.

Who's really the brat?




Is it ever ok to compromise with someone you consider to be 'evil'.

Seriously, say you meet the embodiment of pure evil. 

Let's say.... Lucifer himself.

Old Hob gives you a terrible set of choices ala ME3's endings....or you can spit in his face.


Why should you compromise with him.  Even if he makes a good argument, even if you know the world is ****ed up and that he probably has a point.  Why should you compromise? 

You know he is bad.  You consider yourself good.  Meeting in the middle is.... at best neutral for the big picture and straight up evil for anyone you just sacrificed.

#852
The Genophage

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Oldbones2 wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

It's interesting that in the refusal ending, the entity that is willing to change and converse, and concede, ends up being the machine and supposedly the 'brat'.

While the inflexible, petulant, and absolutist one, is Shepard.

Who's really the brat?




Is it ever ok to compromise with someone you consider to be 'evil'.

Seriously, say you meet the embodiment of pure evil. 

Let's say.... Lucifer himself.

Old Hob gives you a terrible set of choices ala ME3's endings....or you can spit in his face.


Why should you compromise with him.  Even if he makes a good argument, even if you know the world is ****ed up and that he probably has a point.  Why should you compromise? 

You know he is bad.  You consider yourself good.  Meeting in the middle is.... at best neutral for the big picture and straight up evil for anyone you just sacrificed.

I agree.

#853
aMytallica

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The Angry One wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I get that. It just doesn't matter at all. So you're saying it would be OK to destroy only if they didn't suggest it first?

Reverse psychology would work well against you.


It would be okay to destroy if it didn't arbitrarily murder my own allies for no reason.


For no reason? Their sacrifice is unfortunate, but it is not for nothing. To choose destroy is for the Reaper threat to end in that very moment. It's all over. Not just for this cycle, but every cycle that was to come after. The galaxy is free of the reapers. To do nothing, to refuse, would be allowing everyone, not just the Geth and EDI, to die for no reason. Helping the krogan, the quarians, uniting the galaxy, all those that have already sacrificed their lives to give Shepard this chance - just to stand aside at the very end and allow them to die? That's a tragedy.

#854
Psychlonus

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Live Free or Die Hard

#855
Nuclear Pete

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Shep: I'M GONNA DESTROY THE REAPERS!
Catalyst: OK. Use the power of the crucible. The choice is yours. you can destroy us...
Shep: NO!

That about right?

#856
Darth Krytie

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Nuclear Pete wrote...

Shep: I'M GONNA DESTROY THE REAPERS!
Catalyst: OK. Use the power of the crucible. The choice is yours. you can destroy us...
Shep: NO!

That about right?



lol. Yep.

#857
v TricKy v

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Psychlonus wrote...

Live Free or Die Hard

Yippie-kay-yay, mother******

#858
Hackulator

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Refuse is like having a temper tantrum and breaking your own toys.

#859
The Angry One

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Nuclear Pete wrote...

Shep: I'M GONNA DESTROY THE REAPERS!
Catalyst: OK. Use the power of the crucible. The choice is yours. you can destroy us...
Shep: NO!

That about right?


- Why do you believe what the Reaper leader is telling you?
- Why will you so readily murder your own allies?
- What's going to happen when synthetics are created again in a few decades and they realise we sold the old synthetics down the river just to save our own skin?

#860
N-Seven

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Oldbones2 wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

It's interesting that in the refusal ending, the entity that is willing to change and converse, and concede, ends up being the machine and supposedly the 'brat'.

While the inflexible, petulant, and absolutist one, is Shepard.

Who's really the brat?




Is it ever ok to compromise with someone you consider to be 'evil'.

Seriously, say you meet the embodiment of pure evil. 

Let's say.... Lucifer himself.

Old Hob gives you a terrible set of choices ala ME3's endings....or you can spit in his face.


Why should you compromise with him.  Even if he makes a good argument, even if you know the world is ****ed up and that he probably has a point.  Why should you compromise? 

You know he is bad.  You consider yourself good.  Meeting in the middle is.... at best neutral for the big picture and straight up evil for anyone you just sacrificed.


Well, this is a bit of a straw man as it isn't Lucifer we're talking about here.  It's an enigmatic AI. 

Throughout the series the motivations of the Reapers, who controls them, their origin and their nature, has been a mystery.   Shepard doesn't truly understand the motivations behind this war or the Reapers.  Whatever is controlling the Reapers, he can't say why it's doing it.  It's is an enigma.  He doesn't know that it is 'bad'.  He just knows it does lots and lots of bad things. 

It is obvious to Shepard that the Reapers are synthetic, and when he finally meets this leader,  the Catalyst, he discovers it is an AI.   Which is in all likelihood, not an incarnation of evil, or any manifestation of a human concept of morality. 

Shepard is an intelligent, trained military officer living in a highly technological galaxy, who deals with AI's and synthetic lifeforms on a  daily basis.  He has multiple AI squadmates/pilots/assitants, has explored the Consensus, negotiated peace with the Geth, disarmed Rogue AI's, has displayed hacking abilities, uses VI-equipped drones in combat, and seems comfortable with the theories of AI behaviour.   AI's and VI's are installed everywhere in society.  It's probable that 'Basic AI Theory' is a part of school curriculums.  He likely knows that AI's are usually not defined or motivated by traditional concepts of good, evil, hate, malice, etc. 

In other words, Shepard isn't going to assume its all about 'good vs evil'.   He's familiar with tech, sees an AI, and there is a good chance he'll go the path of trying to dissect this AI's logic and find out why all this is happening.
Shepard wants to know motivations and programming, and he goes into question mode.  It doesn't make sense to spit in faces.  It makes sense to review and use what he knows about AI's and apply that knowledge to this encounter.

'Is it ever ok to compromise with someone you consider evil?'  I think it is, if good can be accomplished from it, but every situation must be evaluated on case-by-case basis.  There is no black and white. To end war, and obtain peace for your people, sometimes that requires negotiating with the enemy, someone you hate, think is evil, or don't understand.  So I think it's reasonable for Shep to negotiate with this AI.  Who knows, perhaps good and evil aren't at the core of this conflict at all.  It's his responsibility to find out what is.

Also it only looks like 'meeting in the middle',  in maybe the Synthesis option.  In the other two offers (Destroy and Control), the Catalyst does just about all the conceding.

Modifié par N-Seven, 05 juillet 2012 - 07:54 .


#861
CINCTuchanka

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The Angry One wrote...

Nuclear Pete wrote...

Shep: I'M GONNA DESTROY THE REAPERS!
Catalyst: OK. Use the power of the crucible. The choice is yours. you can destroy us...
Shep: NO!

That about right?


- Why do you believe what the Reaper leader is telling you?
- Why will you so readily murder your own allies?
- What's going to happen when synthetics are created again in a few decades and they realise we sold the old synthetics down the river just to save our own skin?


Shepard had explicit orders from the most senior commander in the Alliance military to stop the Reapers, whatever the cost.

Not to stand around like a fool and watch everyone die because he/she was too proud.

I guess refusal Shepards must enjoying committing treason AND genocide at the same time.  At least they are efficient like that.

All jesting aside, refusal is a nice option to have around, but to defend it on moral grounds is really silly.  If you are that gung-ho for refusal then it's clear you just hate the endings.  It's okay to like refusal because you think the other choices are stupid from a gameplay perspective, but arguing that it is morally correct is nonsense.

Modifié par CINCTuchanka, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .


#862
Jackums

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CINCTuchanka wrote...

Shepard had explicit orders from the most senior commander in the Alliance military to stop the Reapers, whatever the cost.

Not to stand around like a fool and watch everyone die because he/she was too proud.

I guess refusal Shepards must enjoying committing treason AND genocide at the same time.  At least they are efficient like that.

All jesting aside, refusal is a nice option to have around, but to defend it on moral grounds is really silly.  If you are that gung-ho for refusal then it's clear you just hate the endings.  It's okay to like refusal because you think the other choices are stupid from a gameplay perspective, but arguing that it is morally correct is nonsense.

My thoughts exac- actually, not even my thoughts, this is just the reality of Refusal.

Many kudos to you, my friend.