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[hero 2]

Why do demons act like con artists and not tricksters?

We've all watched Hustle, I hope: 
https://en.wikipedia...tle_(TV_series)  so we all know how the basics of the con work. Offer someone something they can't resist and then give them something worth less (or worthless). Bait and switch. The downside to this is that it can be difficult to get a smart or stubborn person to go for it.

I wonder why demons aren't more tricky, for example asking someone if they don't not want to accept their deal or not. So they confuse them into saying, "yes". Or does it not work like that? Do they have to REALLY want the deal, or some other such guff?

Also, if demons can (as in Feynriel's dream sequence) change their appearance, would it not make sense for them to collaborate in creating a peer-pressure environment or a more convincing situation in which the victim believes they are not in the fade?

[Orian Tabris]

I have seen Hustle (definitely one of my favourite shows, though I'm not English), and conning and tricking is basically the same thing. The only difference is conning is usually more face-to-face.

Demons are solidary creatures. They won't work with other demons, unless corralled by stronger ones. Demons like the Asunder (Origins sidequest) Pride Demon, at the top of the hierarchy, generally go it alone (this is just an exmaple of a solidary demon).

As with Feynriel, they do like to create a peer pressure environment for a mage, if they can.

I would assume that demons seek out those mages who would be too weak to resist them, or too eager to take revenge on others. The latter of these, not including mages who would actively summon/call out a demon
notwithstanding. I don't think they would choose any random mage, who wasn't willing, or likely to cave in, to a demon's offer (otherwise there'd be a lot more abominations in Thedas). The Circle teaches mages to withstand a demon's offer or presence, so that backs up my point here.

As a side note: They can only change form inside the Fade, and probably only some of the more powerful, or determined demons can. Outside the Fade (the mortal realm, as Justice calls it) they cannot, because as Justice said, the Fade is ever-changing, and the mortal realm never changes.

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:44 .

[hero 2]

Orian Tabris wrote...

I would assume that demons seek out those mages who would be too weak to resist them, or too eager to take revenge on others. The latter of these, not including mages who would actively summon/call out a demon
notwithstanding. I don't think they would choose any random mage, who wasn't willing, or likely to cave in, to a demon's offer (otherwise there'd be a lot more abominations in Thedas). The Circle teaches mages to withstand a demon's offer or presence, so that backs up my point here.

Sorry, I don't understand how that backs up your point at all.
Let's say, for instance, a demon randomly made offers to mages. His chance of success would be greater than a demon who sat at home and waited for a willing mage to come along. Cold-calling demons are much more likely to succeed. It'd be like a jobseeker who sent out spec letters to every employer instead of siting around hoping for a job to arrive in his lap.

Modifié par hero 2, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:03 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Because to make a deal with a human presents lots of risk to a demon. Unlike cold calling possible employers, there is a chance a human will trap, ensare or destroy the demon. You wouldn't cold call soldiers by dropping off your resume if they had the potential to blow your brains out.

And, to be honest, demons DO ensnare humans by "hustling" them. For example, the Templar in DA:O's tower under the spell by the desire demon was offered something he couldn't resist - the illusion of a loving family, something of no cost or value to the demon, but which she slowly gained his obedience, his soul and eventually, his life.

If that's not a hustle, I don't know what is.

[hero 2]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
If that's not a hustle, I don't know what is.

I was wondering why they didn't try tricks instead of cons? Tricks of wordgamery and such:
"Here is a form you should sign if you don't want to agree to my deal... haha! I tricked you, it really says you DO want to agree! Look at the (microscopically) small print".

On another note, if the spirits (in The Fade) are not alive and the player kills them, do they die? Do they disappear from existence? Does that mean there is a limited number of them, or do they somehow reproduce?
If they don't reproduce or return in some way, then it would make sense to wipe them all out and end the problems of blood magic once and for all. 

Modifié par hero 2, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:22 .

[esper]

hero 2 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
If that's not a hustle, I don't know what is.

I was wondering why they didn't try tricks instead of cons? Tricks of wordgamery and such:
"Here is a form you should sign if you don't want to agree to my deal... haha! I tricked you, it really says you DO want to agree! Look at the (microscopically) small print".

On another note, if the spirits (in The Fade) are not alive and the player kills them, do they die? Do they disappear from existence? Does that mean there is a limited number of them, or do they somehow reproduce?
If they don't reproduce or return in some way, then it would make sense to wipe them all out and end the problems of blood magic once and for all. 

Because that obviously won't work. The mage have to let the demons want to come in, and just as demon's can break a promise so can the host. It is not a faustian contract or any contract for that matter, but the case of the demon getting a foot hold in the mage''s mind and body.
So a mage can easily say "Sure I'll share my body with you if you just give me your knowlegde of blood magic" and then afterwards say "Ha, ha, I tricked you" So a wordgame 'contract' can a eaily be broken by a mage as a demon and thus it is better for the demon to either break the mage's will by making them think that they can't fight back, or by making the mage think that they really, really need the demon to do whatever want to do.

[Fast Jimmy]

Destroying demons doesn't "kill" them, as they are spirits and are never truly alive. They return to the Fade, weakened, and have to ebb out an existence there, slowly regaining power. You could no more exterminate all demons than you could capture all the wind. They are a spiritual force of nature.

[esper]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Destroying demons doesn't "kill" them, as they are spirits and are never truly alive. They return to the Fade, weakened, and have to ebb out an existence there, slowly regaining power. You could no more exterminate all demons than you could capture all the wind. They are a spiritual force of nature.

That simply cannot be entirely true, we know that wisps seems to be demon who have 'died' so it is possible to get them to that form, we also know that hunger demon can potentally eat fellow demons (and I assume spirits) so they are apperently eatable. Also demons can be intimidated with their life which much means that they are en fear of losing something...

Of course all those are in the Fade, so perhaps you need to face a demon there to kill it, or perhaps people have just never proberly checked what happened to demons and spirits if they become aborminations and then 'die'. I have a slightly feeling that knowlegde on demons is too much mixed up with presumptions and thus what people actually know about what they are and how they function may be potentially false.

[Fast Jimmy]

When the demons are killed, they are severely weakened, as I stated above, reverting them to other forms like the wisps. Also, in the same way thrall human spirits are released when a demon is killed, so too would 'eaten' demons/spirits by a sloth demon. They, too, would be extremely weakened and would have to spend an Age or two gathering strength.

While demons are immortal, they do covet power (which is why they become demons in the first place) so losing that power and being made vulnerable for a century or two is sufficient self-preservation.

[hero 2]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

When the demons are killed, they are severely weakened, as I stated above, reverting them to other forms like the wisps. Also, in the same way thrall human spirits are released when a demon is killed, so too would 'eaten' demons/spirits by a sloth demon. They, too, would be extremely weakened and would have to spend an Age or two gathering strength.

While demons are immortal, they do covet power (which is why they become demons in the first place) so losing that power and being made vulnerable for a century or two is sufficient self-preservation.

If that's the lore, then the warrior-mage solution is on! An army of mages trained to fight goes into the fade and wipes all the demons out, reducing them to wisps or whatever. A smaller culling force can then be maintained to keep the demon population down, and thus abominations become extremely rare.

[Fast Jimmy]

I mean... The Fade is infinite. Demons have eternity to hide in. The only way to coax them out of hiding would be to offer a mage as a tempting offering, which runs the risk of the mage being taken possession of, either in an obvious way like an abomination, or a more sneaky way, which may not surface for years.

I have a feeling it would result it many more mage deaths and abominations running around than what currently exists with the occasional blood mage?

[hero 2]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I mean... The Fade is infinite. Demons have eternity to hide in. The only way to coax them out of hiding*snip*

Infinite eh? That's smacks of codswallop, but I'll roll with it. Maybe the mages need is to... shape The Fade.

[brushyourteeth]

Haven't you guys heard? Demons are sweet fluffy creatures who are grossly misunderstood and don't mean to trick anybody.

[WardenWade]

I've always kind of assumed the Fade was as large as mortal imagination itself..."as small as a world and as large as alone," in the words of e.e. cummings (and I could be mangling the meaning there). To that end, it could be nigh infinite or finite indeed, depending on the individual experiencing the Fade.

And in terms of demons using trickery on mortal dreamers, I like to think the Dread Wolf is their acknowledged master in all things deceitful...

Modifié par WardenWade, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:22 .

[brushyourteeth]

Begemotka wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Haven't you guys heard? Demons are sweet fluffy creatures who are grossly misunderstood and don't mean to trick anybody.

Could you ,perchance,be referring to my garden gnome variety desire demon from the DD for a companion thread ?

You know what comes next,right?   *GLOMP!*   

LOL, drat! You always catch me when I'm being curmudgeonly!

[WardenWade]

Begemotka wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

I've always kind of assumed the Fade was as large as mortal imagination itself..."as small as a world and as large as alone," in the words of e.e. cummings (and I could be mangling the meaning there). To that end, it could be nigh infinite or finite indeed, depending on the individual experiencing the Fade.

And in terms of demons using trickery on mortal dreamers, I like to think the Dread Wolf is their acknowledged master in all things deceitful...

Hmmm,lovely post,as usual,WardenWade 

But Dread Wolf? Ahhh,scares me not.

But this creature,my friends,is even more magnificient,deceitful and terrifying than the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog.Run,while you still can.

Thank you for your kind words, Begemotka!   I've been trying to consider on and off the nature of the Fade myself lately (dream world and afterlife?  simultaneous hallucination?) and this is an interesting thread indeed for that

And that picture, it puts the Killer Rabbit to shame!  Dear Maker...