31 réponses à ce sujet

[Gecon]

I think its pretty safe to state that the Strength based melee Rogue is possible, but inferior to the Strength based dual weapon Warrior and the Cunning based melee Rogue.



The Strength based dual weapon Warrior simply gets Warrior specific talents and Specializations that help him further.



The Cunning based melee Rogue can improve all his Specializations with Cunning. Strength wont help there.



So the Strength based Rogue does certainly a lot of direct damage and will have a good attack bonus, but wont be any good for Armor Penetration and wont be good in respect to most Rogue exclusive skills. Without Backstabs, he will be doomed to be behind the Warrior, but with backstabs he cannot use the dual wielding stance.



In any case, Strength based Rogue is possible, but will result in a bad Rogue and will have a hard time to keep up with a dual wielding Warrior.

[Haplose]

Well I am a fan of Dex based Rogues myself. Pretty much nothing into Str, 30-40 Cun (to open all chests, disarm all traps, maybe skip 1 Coercion rank and 1 Deft Hands rank), rest Dex.

Damage per hit is a bit worse but much better Defence, attack accuracy and physical resistance.

With this char I like to sneak up front of the party, scout, disable traps of course, but also often solo small-to-mid groups of enemies. Just have to be carefull if there is more then 1 caster (or has a higher rank) or Dirty Fighting spamming rogues. Warrior-type skills he typically resists. That is on Nightmare.

And no, a Rogue does not need Longswords. Their sluggish attack speed would just harm his DPS.

Modifié par Haplose, 16 décembre 2009 - 01:58 .

[Steel Majere343]

actually their attack speed isnt that slow. if that were the case everyone should just use daggers lol. since they attack faster and have a higher damage?. no.



iv found that by maxing the dual tree you can wield two longswords and my rogue (who has 50 STR now) can pretty much kill anything even by himself he does so much damage. its great.STR also contributes to your attack/acuracy btw. it is divided .5 each for dex and str.so actually you would hit MORE with a high STR then cunning because cunning only carries the damage, not the other stats of str. i garantee he does more damage in melee then a cunning rogue. i garentee it. even if cun contributes to dagger damage, STR contributes to longsword damage, and longswords by themselves do more then daggers (not considering their stat bonuses and all).



dont nock it before you try it, trust me, double longswords are the way to go and kick the crap out of two daggers if you focus on STR.i guess if you focused on cun two daggers would be better because you would have a low str thus your bonus for using longswords is negated and you get a big bonus for using daggers. but all in all, two longswords are way better then two daggers. dont nock what im saying until you try it, its just logical sense.



for your characters yes, daggers are better because your cunning is insane. so naturally, their bonus will kick in. but without bonuses longswords have a higher DPS then daggers (that would just be stupid if they didnt, longswords do more damage, period, common sense). so if you put that effort into str you will instead have a high bonus for using those kinds of weapons. which will become even stronger.

[Steel Majere343]

Gecon wrote...

I think its pretty safe to state that the Strength based melee Rogue is possible, but inferior to the Strength based dual weapon Warrior and the Cunning based melee Rogue.

The Strength based dual weapon Warrior simply gets Warrior specific talents and Specializations that help him further.

The Cunning based melee Rogue can improve all his Specializations with Cunning. Strength wont help there.

So the Strength based Rogue does certainly a lot of direct damage and will have a good attack bonus, but wont be any good for Armor Penetration and wont be good in respect to most Rogue exclusive skills. Without Backstabs, he will be doomed to be behind the Warrior, but with backstabs he cannot use the dual wielding stance.

In any case, Strength based Rogue is possible, but will result in a bad Rogue and will have a hard time to keep up with a dual wielding Warrior.

armor penetration is less yes, there are only two skills that require cunning for the rogue btw, lockpicking and sneak. you arnt missing out on much lol. you can do backstabs with longswords...

but iv never had a problem with a lower armor penetration. he still does more damage.
they become pretty much the same as a dual wielding warrior except with backstabs.

im more asking about the tank ideas though, iv already got my rogue and regardless if people think cunning is better for melee, its really not lol. yes you get a high armor penetration but the benefits from using the best tier longswords are just insane. even without armor penetration i bet he does more damage with those longswords to a heavily armored boss then he would with two daggers and a high cunning.

try it.

[Id of Ith]

Steel Majere343 wrote...

Gecon wrote...

I think its pretty safe to state that the Strength based melee Rogue is possible, but inferior to the Strength based dual weapon Warrior and the Cunning based melee Rogue.

The Strength based dual weapon Warrior simply gets Warrior specific talents and Specializations that help him further.

The Cunning based melee Rogue can improve all his Specializations with Cunning. Strength wont help there.

So the Strength based Rogue does certainly a lot of direct damage and will have a good attack bonus, but wont be any good for Armor Penetration and wont be good in respect to most Rogue exclusive skills. Without Backstabs, he will be doomed to be behind the Warrior, but with backstabs he cannot use the dual wielding stance.

In any case, Strength based Rogue is possible, but will result in a bad Rogue and will have a hard time to keep up with a dual wielding Warrior.

armor penetration is less yes, there are only two skills that require cunning for the rogue btw, lockpicking and sneak. you arnt missing out on much lol. you can do backstabs with longswords...

but iv never had a problem with a lower armor penetration. he still does more damage.
they become pretty much the same as a dual wielding warrior except with backstabs.

im more asking about the tank ideas though, iv already got my rogue and regardless if people think cunning is better for melee, its really not lol. yes you get a high armor penetration but the benefits from using the best tier longswords are just insane. even without armor penetration i bet he does more damage with those longswords to a heavily armored boss then he would with two daggers and a high cunning.

try it.

There's already been a lot of work as far as mathing out the "optimal" melee DPS rogue, and it does involve dagger/dagger. We've already tried all the variations. In fact running anything but a dagger in your off-hand produces lower damage no matter what your setup is. Terrible waste to put a longsword in the off-hand of a rogue.

[Naxarrath]

Steel Majere343 wrote...
even without armor penetration i bet he does more damage with those longswords to a heavily armored boss then he would with two daggers and a high cunning.

try it.

You really think you can do better dps with uber longsword than this

[dkjestrup]

Steel Majere343 wrote...

actually their attack speed isnt that slow. if that were the case everyone should just use daggers lol. since they attack faster and have a higher damage?. no.

iv found that by maxing the dual tree you can wield two longswords and my rogue (who has 50 STR now) can pretty much kill anything even by himself he does so much damage. its great.STR also contributes to your attack/acuracy btw. it is divided .5 each for dex and str.so actually you would hit MORE with a high STR then cunning because cunning only carries the damage, not the other stats of str. i garantee he does more damage in melee then a cunning rogue. i garentee it. even if cun contributes to dagger damage, STR contributes to longsword damage, and longswords by themselves do more then daggers (not considering their stat bonuses and all).

dont nock it before you try it, trust me, double longswords are the way to go and kick the crap out of two daggers if you focus on STR.i guess if you focused on cun two daggers would be better because you would have a low str thus your bonus for using longswords is negated and you get a big bonus for using daggers. but all in all, two longswords are way better then two daggers. dont nock what im saying until you try it, its just logical sense.

for your characters yes, daggers are better because your cunning is insane. so naturally, their bonus will kick in. but without bonuses longswords have a higher DPS then daggers (that would just be stupid if they didnt, longswords do more damage, period, common sense). so if you put that effort into str you will instead have a high bonus for using those kinds of weapons. which will become even stronger.

Okay, either you are a troll, joking or stupid.

Daggers do at least as much damage as longswords, if not more. Because Runes do the same damage for each weapon, and daggers attack more often, they do more damage with runes. Then there are awesome daggers like Roses Thorn.

You don't need the attack bonus from strength, trust me. I'm playing on Nightmare, and my hit rate is high 80s, and that's including the first few levels without Heroic Offense or Dueling. You also get an attack bonus from Flanking.

You should be always backstabbing as a Rogue, as they are auto crits. This is easy using a warrior with Taunt. Especially with gear like the Bards Dancing Shoes, which I use, t7 light boots that reduce hostility.

And yes, everyone should use daggers. Which is why everyone with a brain does (for Rogues) because of their speed, backstab damage, etc.

Strength wise. You need 22 strength for the best light armor. -2 for Helm of Honleath (+2 strength) -2 for Harvest Festival Ring (+2 strength) -1 for Ornate Leather Belt (+1 Strength). So you only need 17 Strength. You get the fade bonuses (+4 I believe?) so you only need to get 13 natural strength, probably less as I must be missing some equipment.

Your Dual Longsword argument is ridiculous. Maybe on a Warrior, sure, but the Vershaille (spell?) axe is still better.

As for Building a warrior being hard, you must be having a laugh.

Stat Allocation for S/S warrior:

29 strength. +5 from the gear I mentioned before, +3 from Branka's mace, +1 from the Portable Bulwark Shield (camp merchant) and +4 from the fade. So you can equip all massive armor with 29 natural strength. Probably less.

All the rest of your points go into dex. You don't need Willpower. You'll be running Threaten, Shield Wall, probably Perfect Striking. You will only need to use taunt as far as active abilities go. You might want some points in Con, but you really don't need it. At best 20 Con should suffice.