100 réponses à ce sujet

[spamhead80]

Shara, you are just too sappy over there with your Shepard's "emotions" and "feelings". Cold, hard logic is the only thing that is going to defeat the reapers. That and four eyes.

Hey, maybe if we found a way to cheaply put four eyes on drell? Then maybe they would be more useful to the galactic collective.

[Casticus]

RShara wrote...

For many people, soldiers and civilians alike, war is an abstract thing. You can't really fight "For everyone" all the time.
Many people fight for an ideal as represented in a person. Fighting to keep their children, family, friends safe.
When that particular embodiment of the ideal is taken away, many people lose the will to keep fighting, or at least, to keep fighting as hard as they did when the ideal was present.

For many fans, the LI is the embodiment of that ideal. Garrus, Tali, Kaidan, Ashley. How many banners are floating around, "For the little blue children!"? How many people say they just want to build Tali that house on Rannoch?

For Thanemancers, Thane is that person. Without him, our Shepards lose that little something that allows her to succeed. She can still manage to get through to the end, but the spark is gone.

For us, the players, it's the same. We're invested in this character, and with such an ignomious death, it kills our desire to play this game.

Good. I'm tired of developers catering to those that think there should always be a happy ending. So I'm happy they killed off a LI. I'm happy it wasn't one of mine. And I'm happy that it was Thane.

[Tashash]

Casticus wrote...

That was a typo. I already changed it to people. 

Why would anyone spend resources curing the Drell of their ridiculously humorous disease, when they could be using those resources to benefit the Council races who actually stand some chance against the Reapers? Even the batarians are more useful than the Drell. At least, they could keep from overpopulating their terrirtory and turning into savages.

Oh, yes - The Batarians. Slavers and drug runners with inherent distrust and dislike of other species, which they also believe to be beneath them due to their lack of multiple sets of eyes. Wonderful allies to have at your back, I'm sure.

And also this, from the Mass Effect Wiki - Whatever the true size and strength of the batarian military, it has been virtually wiped out by the Reaper onslaught and the few ships that survived the fall of Khar'shan fled to Alliance space along with thousands of refugees.

Anyone else?

[spamhead80]

I think that they should have taken it a step further and killed ALL of the ME LI's. Emotion is weakness, Casticus, and you can't afford to be bogged down by weakness or the reapers will win. Trust me on this, cupcake.

[RShara]

Don't feed the troll.

[Renmiri1]

ROFL.. Troll thinks we will run away crying..

I don't give a rats' arse about what some troll thinks cupcake. Keep posting. It keeps Thane's name on the front page.

[sUiCiDeKiNgS13]

I never saw a problem with Thane's death scene. You got to remember, it's not what you would do, It's what Thane would do. He chose to save the Dalatrass, He was looking for a reckoning, and saving her was his choice in doing so. We all want to have a final conversation with him, but he was already dying at the beginning of the game, and then add on that he has been stabbed straight through the body. He's not going to be able to talk.

I understand why Thane-o-mancers want more time with him, but you gotta remember that you jumped in a relationship with a dying man. Wasn't a whole lot of ways it could pan out.

My Opinion - I think they had Kai Leng kill Thane to show the player that Kai-Leng is more dangerous than we may realize, but it just didn't hit on the cylinders like they thought it would.

[sUiCiDeKiNgS13]

I get what you're saying. Maybe because he was my bro and not my LI, it didn't bother me as much.

Modifié par sUiCiDeKiNgS13, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:44 .

[dgcatanisiri]

While I do agree that the romance could use... you know, ROMANCE, I think that Thane shouldn't be cured, and that his death works. I always took from his character that he was willing and accepting of death. He was already past all the expiration dates given him, so he saw what extra time he had as a gift and wouldn't try to extend it. And he gets to save the life of a Council member, which, say whatever about both Kai Leng and the Council, is a big deal.

If there were some 'find a cure/way to extend his life' plot, I would actually think that it would fit his character more for him to turn it down or suggest that Kolyat undergo whatever he needs to prevent it from developing for him.

[Tashash]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

While I do agree that the romance could use... you know, ROMANCE, I think that Thane shouldn't be cured, and that his death works. I always took from his character that he was willing and accepting of death. He was already past all the expiration dates given him, so he saw what extra time he had as a gift and wouldn't try to extend it. And he gets to save the life of a Council member, which, say whatever about both Kai Leng and the Council, is a big deal.

If there were some 'find a cure/way to extend his life' plot, I would actually think that it would fit his character more for him to turn it down or suggest that Kolyat undergo whatever he needs to prevent it from developing for him.

OK, agreeing with most of what you've said here, and appreciating your willingess play give and take, instead of coming in, gun blazing with 'i lieked what wuz dun wif Thane, u all juz butthurt, na na na'. So thank you for that.

One thing - A ROMANCED Thane is no longer so accepting of his impending end. He flat out tells you 'I am afraid'. Sorry but I feel like I'm flogging a dead horse here, it's been reitterated so many times.

[BP93]

*flame shield on*

I, for one, hope they don't change Thane's death. After talking to him throughout ME2 and in ME3 with an unromanced bro-Thane, the guy has accepted his fate. He's got his son down the right road, he helped on a suicide mission, and he saved the Salarian councilor. He talked about doing some good before his life ended in ME2 and he's done that now. There was nothing in his death scene that indicated that "I don't wanna die!" aura about him.

For a cure to be magically found would just cheapen his character IMO. That's what his character is all about, he's a terminally ill assassin who's wish is to do some good before he dies, it's why he agreed to be on your team in the first place. But then a magical cure comes along and then what? He sits in the hospital recovering from the stab wound for the whole game? They aren't going to add him as a full squadmate, not at this stage. I'm not going to get into the whole romance thing because I think it's pretty obvious. When you were romancing him, you knew what you were getting into. You honestly can't be all that surprised, can you?

Just leave him as is.

[Tashash]

*Bangs head against keyboard*

I WILL be CALM.
I WILL be POLITE.

1. A ROMANCED Thane does not wish to die. (Seriously people?)
2. Lazarus Project, Genophage Cure, Quarian Re-Acclimation to Rannoch - Space Magic freaking everwhere, but none for Thane?
3. Well, don't go looking for a cure for cancer, or AIDs, or any number of fatal diseases - wouldn't want to CHEAPEN the people who suffer or have died from them, would we?
4.BW supported the F.B SAVE THANE FOR ME3 campaign, so, yeah, we are suprised, and very, very dissapointed.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

[BP93]

Tashash wrote...

*Bangs head against keyboard*

I WILL be CALM.
I WILL be POLITE.

1. A ROMANCED Thane does not wish to die. (Seriously people?)
2. Lazarus Project, Genophage Cure, Quarian Re-Acclimation to Rannoch - Space Magic freaking everwhere, but none for Thane?
3. Well, don't go looking for a cure for cancer, or AIDs, or any number of fatal diseases - wouldn't want to CHEAPEN the people who suffer or have died from them, would we?
4.BW supported the F.B SAVE THANE FOR ME3 campaign, so, yeah, we are suprised, and very, very dissapointed.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

1. And a unromanced Thane is content with dying.
2. The genophage is a terrible comparision. There's been hints and other attempts at curing it since the first game. The Quarians going back to Rannoch was under way in ME2 if you did Tali's loyalty mission. There is absolutely nothing that hints at a cure for Kepral's Syndrome. Thane flat out states there is no cure. So, BW pretty much has to cheapen the character and pull a cure out of their ass for it to happen.
3. So much for being calm and polite... two of my grandparents died as a result of cancer. So thanks?
4. BW also supported a lot of things. Many of which didn't come to frutition. Sorry.

[RShara]

BP93 wrote...

Tashash wrote...

*Bangs head against keyboard*

I WILL be CALM.
I WILL be POLITE.

1. A ROMANCED Thane does not wish to die. (Seriously people?)
2. Lazarus Project, Genophage Cure, Quarian Re-Acclimation to Rannoch - Space Magic freaking everwhere, but none for Thane?
3. Well, don't go looking for a cure for cancer, or AIDs, or any number of fatal diseases - wouldn't want to CHEAPEN the people who suffer or have died from them, would we?
4.BW supported the F.B SAVE THANE FOR ME3 campaign, so, yeah, we are suprised, and very, very dissapointed.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

1. And a unromanced Thane is content with dying.
2. The genophage is a terrible comparision. There's been hints and other attempts at curing it since the first game. The Quarians going back to Rannoch was under way in ME2 if you did Tali's loyalty mission. There is absolutely nothing that hints at a cure for Kepral's Syndrome. Thane flat out states there is no cure. So, BW pretty much has to cheapen the character and pull a cure out of their ass for it to happen.
3. So much for being calm and polite... two of my grandparents died as a result of cancer. So thanks?
4. BW also supported a lot of things. Many of which didn't come to frutition. Sorry.

Most of us aren't talking about an unromanced Thane, so I don't see your point...

Modifié par RShara, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:28 .

[BP93]

And I'm talking about an unromanced Thane. A cure just wouldn't make sense for the character in that essence. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that... Unless Bioware really has the desire to make two separate outcomes for Thane bsaed on romance, I don't see it being done. Just the way it is.

Why should the character change for those who didn't romance him? Everything is a two-way street..

[nos_astra]

Does he really say this? I thought coming to terms with your own mortality is a good thing. He's a killer, an assassin by choice IIRC. And now he's afraid of his own death? That's hypocritical.

I don't know what to think of this romance arc.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:40 .

[Casticus]

BP93 wrote...
1. And a unromanced Thane is content with dying.
2. The genophage is a terrible comparision. There's been hints and other attempts at curing it since the first game. The Quarians going back to Rannoch was under way in ME2 if you did Tali's loyalty mission. There is absolutely nothing that hints at a cure for Kepral's Syndrome. Thane flat out states there is no cure. So, BW pretty much has to cheapen the character and pull a cure out of their ass for it to happen.
3. So much for being calm and polite... two of my grandparents died as a result of cancer. So thanks?
4. BW also supported a lot of things. Many of which didn't come to frutition. Sorry.

Nope. Let's just cure him anyway. Screw logic.

[RShara]

Well the other ME2 romances get different outcomes depending on whether they are romanced, or are talked to, etc or not. Basically, different triggers decide whether they live or die. They aren't forced into one ending. Only Thane and Jacob are forced into the same arc, no matter what you do.

There should be certain criteria, not just if he's romanced or not, that decide whether he lives or dies. However, the fact that if romanced, he doesn't want to die, negates the argument everyone has about how he was ready to die(as if that was the only way he ever behaved).

Loyalty made a huge difference in ME2, timing made a huge difference in ME3, except for two of the FemShep only options. We're asking for equal treatment for all LI's, that's all.

klarabella--that's during the conclusion of the romance arc. You have to have gone through the entire thing for it to make sense. However, the point still stands--if romanced, Thane no longer has any desire to die.

[Moira-chan]

he would, he never had a problem of surving. our medicin right in 21'th centuary is far enough to keep him alive from being stabbed.
he was not destinied to die after kai lengs attack. even the doctor mentioned a chance to save him by getting more blood, but negate it immediatly, what did not made sense. a mission to kahje was planned on the leaked script.

and i'm gonna repost a post from another thread i did:

let me give you some example of how you miss one point. I will take tali as it. She could have died even in mass effect because of her weak immun system. she never got in contact with any bacterial or viren, so when she's connecting her suit with shepard it would causes her death. she risked her life to have a romance night with you. if a body was never in contact with microorganism there are no anitbodies within the blood so that at leat, as tali always said, the smallest contact with bacteria would causes her death, but she did not died, because maybe she want to or at least because it's a science fiction

and that how we got to thane. sure he could die, but in a science ficition where shepard overcame death quite more damged and injured like thane ever been, there would be opportunties to save him.
His ilness is based on cystic fibrosis. you can read about it here:
cystic fibrosis


at least there are even treatments for this ilness right now, i'm in contact with one who has it. thane was never supposed to die. even bioware said, that they did not know where to go.
afterwards we are not talking about curing kepral right at the moment, no we just said it's easy to Save Thane from being stabbed not more not less.
i wrote a 2 pages long essay, sent to bioware, that even right now he was able to save. i gave you an extract:

Thane was stabbed by Kai Leng’s sword. As far
as I can judge it, Leng did not hit a critical place so the inner organs should
not be injured. The only problem Thane had was his blood loss. For medicine,
that is highly more developed in the 22th Century this should not be a big
problem. Even though Thane did lose a lot of blood, which affects his oxygen
flow however over the years of already having this problem his body have gotten
use to it. I really though the Citadel, the capitol of the universe, having so
many different species living there that they would have enough reserve of
blood for everyone. This is especially true when you find the data pad in the
hospital to cure Hanars. So why can’t we find something for the Drell?

To sum it
up, what is said about Kepral’s Syndrome in Mass Effect is similar to the
dysfunction of protein like our hemoglobin, it cannot transport the oxygen properly.
I am guessing it is in the iron complex because that is where the oxygen is bound.
Of course you never said the protein of Drell is like our hemoglobin but
because they are also beings based on carbonate; I feel I can apply human facts
on Drells.


While in operation, Thane’s lungs and blood are
pumped with a lot of oxygen to keep him alive. So that means that every hemoglobin
protein is caring oxygen. Carbon dioxide is a kind of concurrent for the oxygen
in our body. It is transported mostly with the blood itself-in the liquid-but
also a few molecules are transported with the help of hemoglobin. In our bodies
there is a mechanism that oxygen can crowd out carbon dioxide out of the
hemoglobin, because it changes the structure of the protein and release the
bond carbon dioxide. So while Thane is in the operation, it can be sure, that
every hemoglobin protein in his remaining blood carries as much oxygen as
possible. One protein is able to carry more than one molecule of oxygen, so it
compensates his lost.


Actually you never said how much blood an adult
Drell has, I am guessing its quiet the same as humans because they have nearly
the same size and structure, so the needs of metabolism for oxygen should be
quite the same. With an injury like Thane’s, the time it took to get to Huerta,
I concluded that he had lost about 2-3 liters of blood. Thane as being an adult
would have 6-7 liters, so he lost something around 33% of his normal blood
level and something like this can be handled with modern medicine. So how can
this be a problem for the future? A future with scientific engineering wonders?
Miranda is cloned out of stem cells from her father and is genetically perfect.
Shepard overcame death is another example. But it is not possible to rescue a
Drell with blood loss? I cannot even believe this.


A transfusion from erythrocyte could make up for the lost of time. This method isused today to compensate a blood loss from 2-3 litters. Erythrocytes are the
cells in the “red spinal cord” which produces the red blood cells and
hemoglobin. In case of losing blood a special regulation in the genes (it’s
kind of a button which is pushed by a special chemistry to start the
translation of the special gene “area”) the production of it increases and the
needs of unnecessary organs are slowed down and the body can survive.

A citadelhospital, the capital of the universe does not have conserves of Drell blood?

Kolyat is around 17 His protein is intact and he has a working iron center for binding
the oxygen. Normally a human in the present now can donate up to one liter
without any consequences. So Thane would remain alive with a transfusion of 5-6
liters. That is a level near a normal one. The medicine also has the
possibility to make Kolyat inhale pure oxygen that his hemoglobin is to only
carry oxygen and no carbon dioxide. Kolyat’s blood would remain 5 days within
Thane; because this is the time the body needs to exchange the blood (not at
same time of course) and will help his father to have enough oxygen for his
metabolism. I dare to say that the amount of oxygen within Thane should be
quite the same as it is without the injury. The probability that Kolyat’s blood
is refused by Thanes body is quite low, because they are father and son, their
genetic material is of 50% equal. So if Kolyat’s donation offers Shepard the
time to go to Kahje to get blood from there, then it would be possible for
Thane to survive. He only had to keep on an oxygen mask in the meanwhile.

Another possibility for Kolyat is that he could have also donated erythrocyte and the doctor can implant them into Thane, so he has more cells which are producing hemoglobin.


sorry for formating, but i could not make it better and i kow its a wall of text but it explain some points so pls read

Modifié par Moira-chan, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:28 .

[Renmiri1]

klarabella wrote...

Does he really say this? I thought coming to terms with your own mortality is a good thing. He's a killer, an assassin by choice IIRC. And now he's afraid of his own death? That's hypocritical.

I don't know what to think of this romance arc.

That is when I  see you never really thought about it. Let me see if I can get through this without offending you.

1) Did you do his Loyalty Mission ?
His Loyalty Mission is to prevent his son from being an assassin. Thane doesn't want his son to go into a "path of Sin".
to 2:10)

2) Path of Sin... Wheel of Fire... Failed to save my Son.. 
Does that sound like someone who approves of his son being an assassin ?

3) If Thane wants to PREVENT his son from being an assassin, does it makes sense to think he likes being an assassin HIMSELF ?
You missed a few key dialogues from the Loyalty Mission arch. Thane was conscripted into being an assassin by his family's debt to the Hanar. He was given to the Hanar to train for it when he was 6 YEARS OLD. He does his duty to the Hanar and to his family but he never volunteered to be an assassin, and he hates being one.

BP93 wrote...

*flame shield on*

I, for one, hope they don't change Thane's death. After talking to him throughout ME2 and in ME3 with an unromanced bro-Thane, the guy has accepted his fate. 

 
Again, another user who spent little time with Thane comes to teach us about our favorite Drell.

Please read above. I proved to another user that Thane hates being an assassin and feels guilty about it. In spite of the fact that in your first conversations with Thane he pretends to feel no guilt. The "I'm ready to die" is just the same thing. Is a mask he puts on, something he wants to believe, because he has nowhere to go, no one to be with and sees little point in waiting to die in a hospital.

Even "Bro" Sheppard can see the pretense. Thane doesn't hide it well. He wants redemption, he wants to give his son the Father and Son time he never gave him before. He finds a reason to live.

You just never paid enough attention and that is your right, in your game.

Just don't try to teach me about Thane. I haz been paying attention 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:34 .

[Steel Dancer]

BP93 wrote...

And I'm talking about an unromanced Thane. A cure just wouldn't make sense for the character in that essence. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that... Unless Bioware really has the desire to make two separate outcomes for Thane bsaed on romance, I don't see it being done. Just the way it is.

Why should the character change for those who didn't romance him? Everything is a two-way street..

No-one's asking for a change to an unromanced Thane. Only as an LI.

klarabella wrote...

Does he really say this? I thought coming to terms with your own mortality is a good thing. He's a killer, an assassin by choice IIRC. And now he's afraid of his own death? That's hypocritical.

I don't know what to think of this romance arc.

Even while seeking his own redemption he had, in effect , gone back to his 'battle sleep' way of operating: almost on automatic.

The romance with Shepard wakes him back up, making him see what he's missing in life.

That's why he's afraid - he becomes far more aware of what he has to lose.




mmmmm...

Slightly off topic (but kinda not), but this is something I posted a little while back that seemed to meet with a certain amount of... not wholehearted approval from all quarters but certainly some interest and thought.

 
Thane Romance Variables:
 
First conversation on the Citadel:
 
If non-romanced:
Mostly plays as is, with retcon of disease removed and “additional complications and secondary infections” put in instead to maintain narrative cohesion.
 
 
If romanced and LotSB not completed:
Mostly plays as is, with retcon of disease removed and ““additional complications and secondary infections” put in instead to maintain narrative cohesion.
 
 
If romanced and LotSB completed:
Mostly plays as is, with retcon of disease removed and a “benefactor who has provided additional, somewhat expensive medical care. These treatments are quite intensive and I would be unable to receive them elsewhere. Fortunately there have been no additional complications to my illness, although I am not what I was.”
 
Liara on-ship conversation option:
“Thane”
“Have you been using your influence to get him medical treatment?”
 
If Liara was NOT romanced: (happily) “Yes, I know how important he is to you, and what kind of friend would I be if I didn’t help?”
 
If Liara WAS romanced: (not happy, not quite meeting Shepards’ eyes) “…Yes. I know how… important he is to you. What kind of… of friend would I be if I didn’t help?”
 
(Possible option for non-LotBS completion, may be unnecessary – if asked about helping Thane, Liara mentions the fight for the SB ship destroyed some data banks, she thinks the files on Shepards crew were in amongst those)
 
 
 
Second later LI only Thane conversation – meal at the presidium commons, all about romance and grants Paramour achievement
 
 
 
Priority: Citadel II
 
Main change with Thane fighting Kai Leng: Shepard orders squad mates to get the Councillor out of the room to safety (better than them standing there like idiots).
 
Kirrahe will turn up in these if alive. There is no good reason for the salarians not to send him to cover the Councillor (unless the salarian government is in the habit of relying on terminally ill drell to cover their most important politicians?).
 
 
Variable 1.0: Thane non-romanced; Kirrahe dead.
Current scene runs as is with Thane mortally wounded in fight for the Citadel. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective.

 
Variable 1.5: Thane non-romanced; Kirrahe alive..
Current scene runs as is with Thane mortally wounded in fight for the Citadel. Kirrahe arrives and fires at KL with the Scorpion shifting the odds in Shepards favour. Shepard also gets shots in but it's not enough.  - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective.
 
Variable 2.0: Romanced Thane; Kirrahe died in ME1: LotSB not completed.
Thane's still mortally wounded in fight after fight scene. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective. Improved LI specific conversation pieces at hospital deathbed scene; crew conversations offer condolences via on-ship conversations.
 
Variable 2.5: Romanced Thane; Kirrahe died in ME1: LotSB completed.
Thane's still mortally wounded in fight after a (hopefully) improved fight scene. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective. Improved LI specific conversation pieces at hospital deathbed scene; crew offer condolences via on-ship conversations.
 
Variable 3.0: Romanced Thane; Kirrahe lived in ME1: LotSB not completed.
Thane's still mortally wounded in fight scene. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective. Kirrahe arrives and fires at KL with the Scorpion shifting the odds in Shepards favour, but just a little too late for Thane… Improved LI specific conversation pieces at hospital deathbed scene; crew conversations offer condolences via on-ship conversations.
 
Variable 3.5: Romanced Thane; Kirrahe lived in ME1: LotSB completed.
Thane fights KL in a (hopefully) improved fight scene. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking is too effective. Just as KL is preparing to deliver a lethal blow to Thane, Kirrahe shoots KL in the back with the Scorpion. Explosion knocks KL flying; Thane is staggered but alive. KL decides discretion is the better part of trolling valour and exits, with Shepard (and squad) in hot pursuit.
 
 
For those who absolutely insist on a tragic ending; you could make the “few shots Shepard gets in” paragon/renegade interrupts which, if not taken, still result in Thanes’ death.
 
 
 
Possible follow up email from the salarian Councillor, promising to look into aiding the hanar research into a cure for Keprals Syndrome: not an immediate cure, but hope for the future, post-game.

If Thane's dead, then it's to honour his sacrifice. If alive, the Councillor hopes it will be of benefit (Headcanon gets to come out and play).
 

TL; DR version:
 
For Thane to survive you MUST have had; Thane in a romance; Kirrahe alive; LotSB completed (and possibly some paragon/renegade interrupts made during the fight scene.).
 

[RShara]

Steel: I've found pictures speak a thousand words

[dgcatanisiri]

Steel Dancer wrote...
[snip]
For Thane to survive you MUST have had; Thane in a romance; Kirrahe alive; LotSB completed (and possibly some paragon/renegade interrupts made during the fight scene.).
 

Okay, now this I could go along with. A handful of new dialogues and some feeling of player agency in the fight scene (it's an awesome fight, but Shepard's too passive, a few cuts over to him/her to see that Shepard's trying to line up a shot on Kai Leng but he won't stand still and Shepard doesn't want to hit Thane could only improve it), and a genuine reflection of choices made in game. I like it. I'd also recommend that part of the dialogue be about his son, how, though it's not perfect, they are forging a strong relationship, maybe even Kolyat insisting that he undergo this treatment, so that they could have time together, to give an explanation for those like me who saw him as accepting his coming death in ME2.

Part of the reason that I don't like the idea of Shepard having a quest to get Thane's cure, really, stems from the fact that it comes across as something that, if open to Shepard regardless of romance, he'd only accept it if he was romanced, which, for those who don't/can't romance him, makes it all seem kind of futile. This way, it's Liara stepping in with her resources and helping Shepard's friend, while also giving him a reason to live again.

Modifié par dgcatanisiri, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:35 .