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[tanglefoot79]

ReubenLiew wrote...

How does one die heroically twice?

It's tricky. You have to be pretty agile to pull it off. More of a rogue thing, really.

[Vicious]

Oh, Loghain really doesn't like Morrigan and if you tell him what the ritual is about he reacts even more poorly then Alistair did.

Also, your other PC members hate on him. Except for Dog who he is really nice to.

He's worth trading Alistair for at least once just to hear all the dialogue. Also he gives insights onto Alistair's character that you won't get anywhere else. [oddly enough]

Modifié par Vicious, 16 décembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[Ulicus]

ReubenLiew wrote...

How does one die heroically twice?

First, you have to be written by Joss Whedon.

Though I suppose Buffy only really died heroically the once... the first time was a bit damp.

Modifié par Ulicus, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:41 .

[Drunkencelt]

There is no getting past the fact he murdered the King, most of the Grey Wardens, and over half of Ferelden's army. He drew up the battle plans and knew fully well he wasn't going to fight.

[Saurel]

If you talk to him after you spared him, he can be fairly likable - in that he isnt a push over

[druidofwarp]

I cant sell you on him Alistair(and all the wardens) deserve better

edit: Cailan too i guess i like him

Modifié par druidofwarp, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:55 .

[Alexandus]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

But he's really, really sorry about it...

Back to srsly:

I thought Riordan brought up some good points that I forgot in my initial post.

Loghain is ultimately, forever and a day, fanatically locked into protecting Ferelden.  Useful traits for a GW.

He's a brilliant tactician and leader, quite useful for the upcoming battle.

He's a hero to the people at large who do not know of his more recent ickiness and his inclusion would raise public morale.

His joining the Wardens would also dispell any residual doubts about them really being traitors.

I'm tryin' here, I'm tryin'. 

His tactics don't seem overly brilliant.

-Pulling out of the battle of Ostagar incurred a much less desirable darkspawn/human death ratio than could have occured otherwise.
-Pulling out of Ostagar also deprived Feralden of centralized leadership and even started a small civil war.
-Hey! Who's the most experienced at fighting darkspawn...the grey wardens! So who do I try to kill off when trying to defend my land from darkspawn? The grey wardens of course!
EPIC STRATEMEGISING IF I DO SAY SAO MAHSELF
-He poisoned an experienced leader of many soldiers, whats-his-name who had to be healed by the sacred ashes. Side effect of that was a zombie invasion that got many feraldens killed.
-He supported a crazy blood mage who got hordes of mages who are essential to the war effort killed or worse.
-He supported Arl Howe, who is even worse at causal reasoning than he is (if that's even possible  )
Need I go on? There's probably shenanigans he pulled off that I'm not even aware of, since I've only played the Mage origin story thus far. Basically, every thing he had a hand in went to hell.

[Adria Teksuni]

Edit - I apologize for the atrocious spacing.  Tried to fix it, but it kept wanting to make it all one big quote.  *sigh*

That's just it, he didn't see the darkspawn as the most significant threat. At the time of Ostagar there was no hard evidence to support it being a Blight, just a relatively minor incursion.

To Loghain, it was stupid to send so many forces to fight the darkspawn. The Orlesians were the real threat, and he took steps accordingly.

-Pulling out of the battle of Ostagar incurred a much less desirable darkspawn/human death ratio than could have occured otherwise.

The human life lost was lamentable, but necessary in the overall scheme of things. Cailan refused to listen to reason.

-Pulling out of Ostagar also deprived Feralden of centralized leadership and even started a small civil war.

His daughter was the queen and he a national hero, without the interference of Arl Eamon, he would most likely have pulled off being sworn in at least as Full Regent with the complete authority of the crown until Anora remarried and produced an heir.

-Hey! Who's the most experienced at fighting darkspawn...the grey wardens! So who do I try to kill off when trying to defend my land from darkspawn? The grey wardens of course!
EPIC STRATEMEGISING IF I DO SAY SAO MAHSELF

See above. The darkspawn weren't the bigger threat. They'd already crushed the darkspawn in three battles.

-He poisoned an experienced leader of many soldiers, whats-his-name who had to be healed by the sacred ashes. Side effect of that was a zombie invasion that got many feraldens killed.

He couldn't have foreseen the kid becoming an abomination. He was simply trying to eliminate an immediate rival. In the ensuing chaos, he would have cemented his rulership and most likely absorbed Redcliffe.

-He supported a crazy blood mage who got hordes of mages who are essential to the war effort killed or worse.

Yeah, not quite sure what this was all about.

-He supported Arl Howe, who is even worse at causal reasoning than he is (if that's even possible )

Howe was an excellent dog to obey his master. Give him his petty wants and needs and he was capable of absolutely anything to further Loghain's ends. Loghain needed someone like that, who wouldn't be bothered by minor things like conscience or morality.

If it weren't for the nosy Wardens and their dog, he would have gotten away with it, too.

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Vicious]

He whipped everyone's rear in the civil war. I know the game doesn't actually show you any of that but it happened. roflol

[SeanMurphy2]

I think what happened at Ostager was a pivotal moment in the game.

But the story doesn't linger on why he did it or what he was hoping to achieve. Loghain is quickly presented as a outright villain. The focus of the mid game moves onto the treaties, darkspawn and the civil war.

Having Loghain in your party may give you more insight into what happened at Ostager and Ferelden's history.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Adria Teksuni]

Agreed. More and more I am wanting to get The Stolen Throne.

[apantoliani]

I agree with Alexandus, if Loghain was such a great tactician, then my punk kid PC from Highever wouldn't have stomped his ass at the Landsmeet to begin with. Period. Nevermind the list Alexandus posted.



Everything he did made sense if he was trying to wrest power for himself instead of save Ferelden from Orlais. If he thought killing Cailan was best, then maybe he should have hired Zevran or Jowan to kill Cailan alone, instead of murdering all those men and women at Ostagar, Grey Wardens and otherwise. Or ****, have Anora do it, she's a daddy's girl after all.



Nevermind the whole stealing a known blood mage from a Templar who magically ends up in Howe's dungeon, selling elves into slavery for money to finance his civil war that he started thing.



Everyone says Alistair is whiny, but honestly, Loghain comes across as just as whiny. At least when Alistair doesn't get his way, he just storms off to go be a drunk in Orlais. Loghain starts killing people. Talk about a temper tantrum. He may have been a hero, but that doesn't excuse it in my book.

[Kolaris8472]

mousestalker wrote...

With Loghain I know who is killing the archdemon. There is never any doubt in my mind. And it happens that way every time. Alistair always tries to be noble.

For me the happy ending is Alistair is king married to Anora. Loghain kills the archdemon. Morrigan spends a celibate night before the dragon dies and my PC goes off somewhere (best ending was dwarf commoner where she became a living Paragon) either with Lelianna or Zevran.

Loghain makes the happy ending possible.

Is this ending possible?

I didn't think any outcome with Alistair not in jail/executed/drunk involved letting Loghain live. If he's King, Loghain dies.

[Adria Teksuni]

I didn't cry, I was in total "Where in the hell did that come from?" mode and finished out the rest in a total lack of immersion haze.

And so far as I know, either Loghain dies or Al leaves, end of story, king or not, planning to marry Anora or not, hardened or not.

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 16 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[InvaderErl]

I just heard the Loghain conversation with Zevran. THAT ALONE IS WORTH IT.

[Vicious]

Right, Loghain dies or Alistair leaves. The ending is also unfinished and if you let Alistair live he will act as though he's King regardless of what actually happened. I guess the game assumes if you don't make Alistair king you'll spare Loghain? Or maybe the ending got too complex for its own good.

[Alexandus]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

Edit - I apologize for the atrocious spacing.  Tried to fix it, but it kept wanting to make it all one big quote.  *sigh*

That's just it, he didn't see the darkspawn as the most significant threat. At the time of Ostagar there was no hard evidence to support it being a Blight, just a relatively minor incursion.

To Loghain, it was stupid to send so many forces to fight the darkspawn. The Orlesians were the real threat, and he took steps accordingly.

-Pulling out of the battle of Ostagar incurred a much less desirable darkspawn/human death ratio than could have occured otherwise.

The human life lost was lamentable, but necessary in the overall scheme of things. Cailan refused to listen to reason.

-Pulling out of Ostagar also deprived Feralden of centralized leadership and even started a small civil war.

His daughter was the queen and he a national hero, without the interference of Arl Eamon, he would most likely have pulled off being sworn in at least as Full Regent with the complete authority of the crown until Anora remarried and produced an heir.

-Hey! Who's the most experienced at fighting darkspawn...the grey wardens! So who do I try to kill off when trying to defend my land from darkspawn? The grey wardens of course!
EPIC STRATEMEGISING IF I DO SAY SAO MAHSELF

See above. The darkspawn weren't the bigger threat. They'd already crushed the darkspawn in three battles.

-He poisoned an experienced leader of many soldiers, whats-his-name who had to be healed by the sacred ashes. Side effect of that was a zombie invasion that got many feraldens killed.

He couldn't have foreseen the kid becoming an abomination. He was simply trying to eliminate an immediate rival. In the ensuing chaos, he would have cemented his rulership and most likely absorbed Redcliffe.

-He supported a crazy blood mage who got hordes of mages who are essential to the war effort killed or worse.

Yeah, not quite sure what this was all about.

-He supported Arl Howe, who is even worse at causal reasoning than he is (if that's even possible )

Howe was an excellent dog to obey his master. Give him his petty wants and needs and he was capable of absolutely anything to further Loghain's ends. Loghain needed someone like that, who wouldn't be bothered by minor things like conscience or morality.

If it weren't for the nosy Wardens and their dog, he would have gotten away with it, too.

Yes, Loghain obviously believed the French -I mean, the Orlesians, to be the true threat. His most far-reaching decision in the game, the desertion at Ostagar, spawns all of his following decisions to cover it up or consolidate his rule in the gap left by his son-in-law's death.

Yes, they had won three minor battles against the darkspawn thus far.

Let's say that Feralden is a house. There's a neighboring house across the valley with a nasty lot that you believe will try to rob your house in the near future. So you want your son to dedicate all the house resources to watch and guard against the other house. Your son objects, because the house is on fire. You point out that he's already put out a few pieces of wood that had been on fire, so obviously the fire must not be a threat. But your son continues to put out the fire instead of standing watch for the other house. Unacceptable! So, in your wisdom, you take an axe and chop mostly through a support beam of the part of the house your son is putting out fires in. Success! It falls on your son and kills him. Victory.

The point of that little metaphor is that the darkspawn was an immediate concern. The Orlesians were a possible concern. Even if you believed the latter party to be of greater priority, it would be wise to get rid of your little darkspawn problem before Feralden's infrastructure is weakened enough to seriously impair it's war machine. The worst possible scenario would be to have to fight a war on two fronts, against both the darkspawn and the Orlesians.

Granted, Tyern Loghain may be gifted in fighting a small civil war, or engaging in a rebellion like in the Dragon Age prelude-novel, but imo he has large gaps of reasoning when it comes to larger affairs.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think post-Ostager would have been more interesting if there was a plausible threat or plot from Orlais.



So it creates doubt whether Loghain did the right thing by moving his army North to deter an invasion. As well as detain nobles who were sympathetic to Orlais. There could have been mystery and twists like propaganda, spies and staging of incidents.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Meh...



I may spare his life...one time only .. in a single playtrough. And I'll be dammned if I let him kill the Archdemon and redeem himself. No redemption for that ******. I don want him to be remembered as a great hero. He doesn't deserve it.



Speaking of morale - sparing him and killing him - both can boost morale. Depends whom you ask. All the banns he's crossed and who's family he threatened, all the elves, all the families of the peopel who died because of his actions - methinks they would be pretty happy to see him dead.

[Onlyasandwich]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

You're killing me Mary!

(In reference to some bad mattress store advertisement, Sit n' Sleep I think, where someone says "You're killing me Larry." I tried to find it on youtube but I'm apparently a youfail).

Have a good night sleep on us! Mattress Discounters!

That's that, mattress man.

[Adria Teksuni]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I think post-Ostager would have been more interesting if there was a plausible threat or plot from Orlais.

So it creates doubt whether Loghain did the right thing by moving his army North to deter an invasion. As well as detain nobles who were sympathetic to Orlais. There could have been mystery and twists like propaganda, spies and staging of incidents.

To this and Alexandus' post:

That's just it, Loghain was not rational when it came to Orlais.  They were his boogeyman in the closet, and he reacted as such.  He pretty much admits he was an obsessive arsehat with seriously skewed priorities if you let him live.

To him, all those things I listed were perfectly logical.

[football_punk64]

Yeah so i got by this by realizing that Alistar was in his PSM stage and i didnt want to deal with him so i sent him to the gallows. And hey If you get hungry you could eat logy's boots. I asked howe about the taste. he gave it 4 stars ****. and you know what... his cooking has to be better than alistars (Anybody remember ali's banter with leliana about stew and have it has to be cooked till its black). Plus if sten gets hungry he can eat him.

[football_punk64]

PMS not PSM

[Vormaerin]

apantoliani wrote...

I agree with Alexandus, if Loghain was such a great tactician, then my punk kid PC from Highever wouldn't have stomped his ass at the Landsmeet to begin with. Period. Nevermind the list Alexandus posted.

Everything he did made sense if he was trying to wrest power for himself instead of save Ferelden from Orlais. If he thought killing Cailan was best, then maybe he should have hired Zevran or Jowan to kill Cailan alone, instead of murdering all those men and women at Ostagar, Grey Wardens and otherwise. Or ****, have Anora do it, she's a daddy's girl after all.

Everyone says Alistair is whiny, but honestly, Loghain comes across as just as whiny. At least when Alistair doesn't get his way, he just storms off to go be a drunk in Orlais. Loghain starts killing people. Talk about a temper tantrum. He may have been a hero, but that doesn't excuse it in my book.

Err, what does "military genius" and "politics" have to do with each other?   Grant and Eisenhower were very successful military folks who made mediocre to terrible Presidents, for example.   There's plenty of other examples.   Besides which, *you* don't beat him.   Anora and Eamon do.   Name one thing you do at the Landsmeet that isn't set up for you by one of the two of them?

Secondly, the point of Ostagar was not to kill Cailan.  It was to kill Duncan and the Gray Wardens.  I don't believe Cailan was intended to die until that night at the council session where he point blank told Loghain that Orlesian soldiers were welcome in Ferelden as long as he was king and that he was standing with the Gray Wardens no matter what.

On a side note, I'd like some evidence that Cailan's forces were "half the army".    There's no evidence of that.   Its the Gray Wardens, their mercenaries, and Cailan's personal guard that are all that is explicitly mentioned.    Not to mention the fact that large chunks of the Ferelden military (like all of Arl Eamon's men and the soldiers of many of the bannorn) were not mustered yet.

You have a very strange definition of "whiny".    Loghain never whines.   He never makes weaselly excuses.  You confront him about something and he says  "Yes, that's that I did and I think it was justified".    He never says "I deserved better" like Howe or "I don't want to be responsible" like Alistair.