138 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I think post-Ostager would have been more interesting if there was a plausible threat or plot from Orlais.

So it creates doubt whether Loghain did the right thing by moving his army North to deter an invasion. As well as detain nobles who were sympathetic to Orlais. There could have been mystery and twists like propaganda, spies and staging of incidents.

We don't know anything about the intentions of the Orlesians, unfortunately.    They could have been the Soviet Union coming to "liberate" Poland from the Germans in WWII.   It is certainly within the bounds of reasonable expectation given what is said about them.   But there is no evidence of anything related to Orlais and Loghain is clearly irrational on the subject regardless.

[borelocin]

I kept him just once to get two achievements you need him for.

Despised him utterly and would have dropped him immediately if I wasn't being completionist.



I would have preferred an option to have him publicly hanged in disgrace on the castle steps.

[Vormaerin]

Alexandus wrote...



His tactics don't seem overly brilliant.

-Pulling out of the battle of Ostagar incurred a much less desirable darkspawn/human death ratio than could have occured otherwise.

-Pulling out of Ostagar also deprived Feralden of centralized leadership and even started a small civil war.

-Hey! Who's the most experienced at fighting darkspawn...the grey wardens! So who do I try to kill off when trying to defend my land from darkspawn? The grey wardens of course!

EPIC STRATEMEGISING IF I DO SAY SAO MAHSELF

-He poisoned an experienced leader of many soldiers, whats-his-name who had to be healed by the sacred ashes. Side effect of that was a zombie invasion that got many feraldens killed.

1)   I think that his plan was for the Gray Wardens to be sacrificed in the vanguard and then he'd counter attack too late after his men in the Tower rely the signal later than it should have been given.  I also think he intended Cailan to be with him when he made the plan originally.    But Cailan ruined that at the council.  He assigned Gray Wardens to light the beacon, so Loghain had to assume it was lit in a timely fashion.   Cailan also made it clear that he was going to let the Orlesians in no matter what Loghain had to say about it, so he had to go.

2) If Flemeth hadn't saved Alistair and the PC, he would have been that centralized leadership without much problem.   He did botch the politics of the Bannorn and got several of them upset at him, but there's no serious opposition without Alistair and the PC

3)  This is pure BS.    There hasn't been a blight for 400 years.   No living Gray Warden has more than fancy stories about fighting darkspawn in any numbers.    They say. they are big bad darkspawn killers, but that's just talk.   If not for the super secret Archdemon reincarnation thing, there's absolutely no reason Loghain wouldn't be a better choice than Duncan for kicking darkspawn rear.   Loghain's actually got military experience.   Duncan has.... "I can sense darkspawn.   They are... right where our scouts say they are."

4)  Arl Eamon was also married to a noblewoman of the nation about to invade the country and reannex it.    And, well, we don't actually know anything about Eamon's military expertise.  He may be good or he may not. 

[Xandurpein]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

With Loghain I know who is killing the archdemon. There is never any doubt in my mind. And it happens that way every time. Alistair always tries to be noble.

For me the happy ending is Alistair is king married to Anora. Loghain kills the archdemon. Morrigan spends a celibate night before the dragon dies and my PC goes off somewhere (best ending was dwarf commoner where she became a living Paragon) either with Lelianna or Zevran.

Loghain makes the happy ending possible.

Is this ending possible?

I didn't think any outcome with Alistair not in jail/executed/drunk involved letting Loghain live. If he's King, Loghain dies.

If you make Alistair King, but let Loghain live, then Alistair will quit the Grey Wardens and no longer be your best friend/significant other or be available as companion, but he will stay and keep the throne.

[kevinwastaken]

Loghain is a big sissy, he's creepy, he's ugly, and he's ill tempered. He goes down in about .5 seconds when you fight him one on one at the Landsmeet- is that seriously what Ferelden wants in a leader? Some pus that basically stumbles over his own feet and collapses when confronted by a real warrior?



No Loghain is a weakling and a poor leader. He knows nothing about politics and he has no abilities beyond making one sneaky power grab. Put him out of his misery.

[menasure]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I think post-Ostager would have been more interesting if there was a plausible threat or plot from Orlais.

So it creates doubt whether Loghain did the right thing by moving his army North to deter an invasion. As well as detain nobles who were sympathetic to Orlais. There could have been mystery and twists like propaganda, spies and staging of incidents.

i think Ostagar would have been more interesting if you could not see the figth in scope ... much like your character never sees it because the doubt about what Loghain did would remain then. eventually your character only hears what happened from Morrigan and Flemeth ... not exactly the most trustworthy people. when you think about it there is still room for doubt left because of the timing when the pyre was eventually lit.

one does get an explanation things were the result of the believed orlais threat but if loghain really believed that it was not even a real blight - like the king seemed to believe as well - then loghain also took a big gamble by assuming that the king would die if he had treachery in mind from the start because the forces under the king might have suffised then to at least save him.
it is that notion which makes things incredible because if loghain has no doubts that it is a real blight how could he hope to defeat it then later on with even less troops than he originally had? for a great general i do not see a magical solution where they would come from. maybe the treaties if he knew about them ... but why was that never suggested in the first place then?
duncan seems to play a very big role in the whole ostagar defeat, both by not explaining why you always need the grey wardens and by not using everything in his power to ensure an as big as possible army against the blight.

the whole ostagar fight itself might have developed more accidental than most assume, the signal simply came too late to save anything and loghain decided to cover the whole thing up on the spot so he would not be blamed for the king his death and the whole failure. he might as well see it as conspiracy of the orlesians or simply blame them for it -they have a whole base of grey wardens too and you would never know about such a conspiracy as rookie warden- and from that point on he felt obliged to rule to salvage what he can  -however failing quite miserably to do so- while a grey warden would think that loghain is the betrayer from the start.

the main problem standing left then is earl howe if you played as human noble but he really behaves as a loose cannon from the start and he looks more like a crazy sadist than a controlled lackey so who knows?

anyway ... to sell loghain as grey warden: there are some nice pieces of dialogue with loghain giving you the option to see becoming a grey warden as a worse than death punishment so some might see that fitting even when they hate loghain

Modifié par menasure, 16 décembre 2009 - 01:52 .

[Anton de Staen]

What happends to Alistair if he's hardened, and you let Loghain live?

[Herr Uhl]

Anton de Staen wrote...

What happends to Alistair if he's hardened, and you let Loghain live?

You can make him marry the queen, otherwise the same thing as always.

[SeanMurphy2]

menasure wrote...

i think Ostagar would have been more interesting if you could not see the figth in scope ... much like your character never sees it because the doubt about what Loghain did would remain then. eventually your character only hears what happened from Morrigan and Flemeth ... not exactly the most trustworthy people. when you think about it there is still room for doubt left because of the timing when the pyre was eventually lit.

I think that would work.

You and Alistair are at the tower. You don't see the state of the battle or what Loghain did.  You know the pre-battle plans are messed up. The darkspawn have taken the tower and the signal is late. You are unconscious for a few days. There is a time gap in your knowledge.

Bioware could have written Ostager as a mystery. You would hear rumours and folklore about what happened. Enemies of Loghain might have their agenda in spreading their version. Alistair could be paranoid, jumping to conclusions looking for someone to blame.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Loghain is a faliure on multipel fronts.



Remeber at Ostagar, everyone is commenting how more and mroe darkspawn are ammassing, and they've never seen them in such numbers except in Blights.

And yet despite that Loghain decides to not take the darkspawn seriously.



Not to mention his withdrawal is moronic. He could have found a far better way to kill Cailan WITHOUT loosing half the army.

[Belhawk]

for me it is simple, KILL KILL KILL Loghain. And KILL his sniveling lacky, Arl Howe, who wiped out the inhabitants of Castle Couland. Chop off ALL there body parts, and i do mean all, and then kill them. I deeply resent what Howe and Lognain did to grab power, and they both deserve a slow death.

[Rolandable]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well other than the fact that he is the hero who freed Ferelden from the Orlesians and other than the fact that he is a tacitical and military genius without which Maric wouldn't have gotten far. And other than the fact that he is an utter badass. And other than the fact that he is an interesting character.
He also has a good set of armor you can sell.

His past exploits in game only come from his mouth and a dead Maric...in the books do they have a bit more in depth history to his exploits?  In game he deserves NOTHING but a beheading by my noble dwarf so Al and Anora could get the deal done w/o complications.  His actions/motives for retreating seem self serving and tyrannical.  He dies. 



BTW:  What class/spec does he start with and does he have uber gear?

[Loki330]

Depressing thing is I would want someone like Lohain in my armies if I was a ruler. I spared him for the first time last night and... I really like him. His personality clicks with mine, which is pretty frightening I suppose. I can see why he thinks what he does, and I actually empathise with them. He makes good points as to why he doesn't think Alistair wouldn't be a good king (One of them being he's quite frankly a doormat and will keep giving ground and authority to the nobles until the throne's "nothing more than a guilded chair." Considering it's supposed to be a monarchy that's kinda meh. He makes some good points about Aemon too.

[cephasjames]

Kalcalan wrote...

After several playthroughs you may wish for some variety.

I've found that it was easier to get rid of Alistair with a main character who was selfish, obnoxious and treacherous.

This.

[SupidSeep]

I can't spare Loghead, I still can't.



Too many people died needlessly to his delusions. At the end, if he had surrendered immediately upon the Landsmeet going against him, I would consider leaving him alive. Sine he only yields at the point of my sword, he'll die by my sword too.

[kevinwastaken]

SupidSeep wrote...

I can't spare Loghead, I still can't.

Too many people died needlessly to his delusions.

Exactly. Only a moronic sycophant would align themselves with a tyrannical sociopath.

[Alexandus]

Vormaerin wrote...

Alexandus wrote...



His tactics don't seem overly brilliant.

-Pulling out of the battle of Ostagar incurred a much less desirable darkspawn/human death ratio than could have occured otherwise.

-Pulling out of Ostagar also deprived Feralden of centralized leadership and even started a small civil war.

-Hey! Who's the most experienced at fighting darkspawn...the grey wardens! So who do I try to kill off when trying to defend my land from darkspawn? The grey wardens of course!

EPIC STRATEMEGISING IF I DO SAY SAO MAHSELF

-He poisoned an experienced leader of many soldiers, whats-his-name who had to be healed by the sacred ashes. Side effect of that was a zombie invasion that got many feraldens killed.

1)   I think that his plan was for the Gray Wardens to be sacrificed in the vanguard and then he'd counter attack too late after his men in the Tower rely the signal later than it should have been given.  I also think he intended Cailan to be with him when he made the plan originally.    But Cailan ruined that at the council.  He assigned Gray Wardens to light the beacon, so Loghain had to assume it was lit in a timely fashion.   Cailan also made it clear that he was going to let the Orlesians in no matter what Loghain had to say about it, so he had to go.

2) If Flemeth hadn't saved Alistair and the PC, he would have been that centralized leadership without much problem.   He did botch the politics of the Bannorn and got several of them upset at him, but there's no serious opposition without Alistair and the PC

3)  This is pure BS.    There hasn't been a blight for 400 years.   No living Gray Warden has more than fancy stories about fighting darkspawn in any numbers.    They say. they are big bad darkspawn killers, but that's just talk.   If not for the super secret Archdemon reincarnation thing, there's absolutely no reason Loghain wouldn't be a better choice than Duncan for kicking darkspawn rear.   Loghain's actually got military experience.   Duncan has.... "I can sense darkspawn.   They are... right where our scouts say they are."

4)  Arl Eamon was also married to a noblewoman of the nation about to invade the country and reannex it.    And, well, we don't actually know anything about Eamon's military expertise.  He may be good or he may not. 

Duncan has military experience as well, he's both older and more experienced than Loghain, especially in the area of fighting darkspawn.

The pure numbers of the darkspawn horde alone should have convinced Loghain to take them seriously. And don't tell me he didn't know how many there were at Ostagar, he had plenty of time to watch the horde attack his fellow feraldens before the tower was lit and he decided to skip off to Denerim.

There is no evidence of an Orlesian threat. From what I've heard the Grey Wardens are more numerous there by an order of magnitude. Loghain's seen how single-mindedly wardens focus on the darkspawn. It is likely that the Orlesian Grey Wardens would attempt to dissuade the nobility there from invading Feralden, at least not until the Darkspawn threat is dealt with.

If Loghain truly believed there to be an impending Orlesian invasion, he would have better served his nation by using his political influence (he was a crowbegotten hero before he started ****ing things up!) to recruit more soldiers as a precaution against the Orlesians. Shore up Feralden's inner defenses, make sure it is prepared for a prolonged conflict. Tell the elves the Orlesians want to wipe them out like the humans of their past, lol.

By falsely committing troops he led the king and Duncan into a plan gone horribly wrong; if he had not committed them to begin with their strategy would have been vastly different and not depended on a flanking force. Who knows, they may have waited for Arl Eamon's forces and together bathed in darkspawn blood.


That all being said, I wasn't terribly pleased with the defense of Ostagar on the whole. They had a perfect chokepoint in the form of that canyon created between the two walls...but they decided to heroically (and stupidly) charge out from it. Fighting in that canyon (does the Battle of Theropylae ring a bell?) would have negated some of the enemy's numerical advantage.

In fact, this is how I would have handled the situation:
-We know that the Feralden forces at Ostagar had at LEAST a day to prepare.
-Barricade the canyon. Heavily.
-Place the mages and archers on top of the wall.
-Dedicate a third of the available mages to negating enemy offensive magic, those who know earth magic will be also responsible for attempting to deflect/destroy boulders hurled by Ogres.
-Each archer must be accompanied by a warrior with a shield. Only when the archer is ready to let loose the next bolt will he leave this protection. Ogres and Emissaries will be the priority targets.
-Position the Grey Wardens that are not atop the wall beyond the barricade, in case they break through.
-Position the Ashwarriors with their Wardogs behind the Grey Wardens, along with any archers that could not be fit along the wall top. Any retreat by the Grey Wardens would be covered by a volley of arrows followed by a wave of Wardogs.
-Enjoy the slaughter.

Alternative strategy:
-Find Sandal and deploy him alone against the darkspawn
-Enjoy the slaughter. (Enchantment!)

[Ulicus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not to mention his withdrawal is moronic. He could have found a far better way to kill Cailan WITHOUT loosing half the army.

Except his goal wasn't to kill Cailan. He was willing to make that sacrifice when it came down to it, but that wasn't his perfect case scenario.

He didn't want the battle to take place at all. He thought the entire thing was a dumb idea. He only agreed because Cailan threatened to let Orlais cross the borders en masse unless he let him have his big glorious battle on that very day.  And, even then, he tried to keep Cailan away from the front lines... but, no, the king would have none of it. He had to be right out in the thick of it.

So, remembering what Maric told him a long time ago, Loghain didn't go to his rescue.

Was it a mistake? Probably. I think Loghain underestimated his own chances and had reverted back to his "assume the worst" pre-Maric mentality. But it wasn't a decision he made maliciously.

Alexandrus
Duncan has military experience as well, he's both older and
more experienced than Loghain, especially in the area of fighting
darkspawn.

Duncan is about fifteen years younger than Loghain. Loghain's in his early-to-mid fifties (and looking damn good for his age), whereas Duncan is in his mid-to-late thirties. (He does seem older than that in the game, though, granted)

Ironically, Loghain was fighting darkspawn before Duncan was... though obviously Duncan has fought a lot more in his time.

[Alexandus]

Ulicus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not to mention his withdrawal is moronic. He could have found a far better way to kill Cailan WITHOUT loosing half the army.

Except his goal wasn't to kill Cailan. He was willing to make that sacrifice when it came down to it, but that wasn't his perfect case scenario.

He didn't want the battle to take place at all. He thought the entire thing was a dumb idea. He only agreed because Cailan threatened to let Orlais cross the borders en masse unless he let him have his big glorious battle on that very day.  And, even then, he tried to keep Cailan away from the front lines... but, no, the king would have none of it. He had to be right out in the thick of it.

So, remembering what Maric told him a long time ago, Loghain didn't go to his rescue.

Was it a mistake? Probably. I think Loghain underestimated his own chances and had reverted back to his "assume the worst" pre-Maric mentality. But it wasn't a decision he made maliciously.

Alexandus
Duncan has military experience as well, he's both older and
more experienced than Loghain, especially in the area of fighting
darkspawn.

Duncan is about fifteen years younger than Loghain. Loghain's in his early-to-mid fifties (and looking damn good for his age), whereas Duncan is in his mid-to-late thirties. (He does seem older than that in the game, though, granted)

Ironically, Loghain was fighting darkspawn before Duncan was... though obviously Duncan has fought a lot more in his time.

If that's so then I stand corrected on the issue of seniority. But Duncan's track record of combating darkspawn seems a lot better, as in he didn't get the king killed and go merrily about weakening just about every aspect of feralden. And regardless of intent or delusions, that IS what Loghain accomplished.

As for your first paragraph, refer to my earlier post which includes 'what loghain could/should have done instead'.

[Axterix]

Ulicus wrote...

Duncan is about fifteen years younger than Loghain. Loghain's in his early-to-mid fifties (and looking damn good for his age), whereas Duncan is in his mid-to-late thirties. (He does seem older than that in the game, though, granted)

That doesn't quite work.  Duncan is having the dreams, about due to head off to the dark roads to die.  So either the warden ritual/taint impacted him quite a bit more than others, he joined before he was 10 years old, or he's a bit older than that.

[Axterix]

Alexandus wrote...

If that's so then I stand corrected on the issue of seniority. But Duncan's track record of combating darkspawn seems a lot better, as in he didn't get the king killed and go merrily about weakening just about every aspect of feralden. And regardless of intent or delusions, that IS what Loghain accomplished.

Of course, that's just hindsight.

What we don't know is what the Orlesians would have done if invited into the country.  Or, for that matter, what the people of Ferelden would have done if they were invited in.  Lot of bad blood there, wouldn't take much to set it off.

We also don't know if the battle was still winnable at the time the tower was lit.  We assume it was, because that makes Loghain's betrayal more so.  But that doesn't mean it was necessarily the case.  Though no doubt the forthcoming DLC will shed more light on that.

And we don't know what would have happened after that battle.  3 battles had been won before that one.  After each victory, the darkspawn came back more numerous for the next one.  So possible, even if this battle had been won, the next would have seen the army wiped out.

[bobsmyuncle]

Ulicus wrote...
Duncan is about fifteen years younger than Loghain. Loghain's in his early-to-mid fifties (and looking damn good for his age), whereas Duncan is in his mid-to-late thirties. (He does seem older than that in the game, though, granted)

Ironically, Loghain was fighting darkspawn before Duncan was... though obviously Duncan has fought a lot more in his time.

Loghain has actually met Duncan before at least once, and in Loghain's mind this Warden from Orlais almost got Maric killed and is possibly up to old tricks.

I'm not saying Loghain is right, but try wearing his boots (working up the necessary paranoia and xenophobia can be tricky, but give it a shot) and you'll see why he might have done what he did at Ostagar. Then instead of owning up to his mistake (he is constitutionally incapable of believing he just betrayed Maric, Rowan, and Ferelden) he keeps covering it up and... well you know how it ends.

If I had to "sell" someone on him, I'd say give him a shot and try to understand his thought process. He's a heinous war criminal and a traitor, and in my canon playthrough I ended his life, but I did it myself and with respect to what he once was rather than let Alistair kill him in anger. I figure if Loghain can meet his death with acceptance for what he's done, he deserves that it be given to him with equanimity.

[fanman72]

Had I read the Stolen Throne before I played the game, i would have kept Loghain. That does a better job at selling him than anything within the game does

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ulicus wrote...
Except his goal wasn't to kill Cailan. He was willing to make that sacrifice when it came down to it, but that wasn't his perfect case scenario.

He didn't want the battle to take place at all. He thought the entire thing was a dumb idea. He only agreed because Cailan threatened to let Orlais cross the borders en masse unless he let him have his big glorious battle on that very day.  And, even then, he tried to keep Cailan away from the front lines... but, no, the king would have none of it. He had to be right out in the thick of it.

So, remembering what Maric told him a long time ago, Loghain didn't go to his rescue.

Orlesians were crossing the borders en maase. It was just a saml lforce of 200 Grey Wardens and some chavaliers. Do you really think the Orlesians could conquer Ferelden now with such a small force, when they were pushed out 30 years ago despite all of their force?

The battle was very winnalbe and everyone pretty much agreed on it. Loghain was just a stupid paranoid ******.
Yes, his goal was to kill Cailan, cause Cailan wanted to allow Orlesians into the country.

[Layn]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Orlesians were crossing the borders en maase. It was just a saml lforce of 200 Grey Wardens and some chavaliers. Do you really think the Orlesians could conquer Ferelden now with such a small force, when they were pushed out 30 years ago despite all of their force?

Loghain reasoned that the orlesians would take the first opportunity when the ferelden army is distracted to kill as many as possible. Then the full orlesian forces com over the border and take over Ferelden

The battle was very winnalbe and everyone pretty much agreed on it. Loghain was just a stupid paranoid ******.
Yes, his goal was to kill Cailan, cause Cailan wanted to allow Orlesians into the country.

yes the battle was winnable. But he didn't want to win, he wanted to kill those "orlesian sympathisers" Grey Wardens. Loghain told Cailan to keep away from the frontlines, but he knows when to give up trying to convince Cailan and thought it didn't really matter since Anora is ruling anyway. Afterwards he'd form a new army and stop the invading darkspawn.

then he gets Howe to help since he needs a nobles support. and since one doesn't know anything about politics and diplomacy and the other is just an evil mischevious bastard, they ended up always doing the wrong thing to get Ferelden on their side

Loghain definitely went a bit crazy there. But in a twisted way, it makes sense what he did.

Modifié par Crrash, 17 décembre 2009 - 09:37 .