138 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Orlesians were crossing the borders en maase. It was just a saml lforce of 200 Grey Wardens and some chavaliers. Do you really think the Orlesians could conquer Ferelden now with such a small force, when they were pushed out 30 years ago despite all of their force?

The battle was very winnalbe and everyone pretty much agreed on it. Loghain was just a stupid paranoid ******.
Yes, his goal was to kill Cailan, cause Cailan wanted to allow Orlesians into the country.

If you are going to insist that your guesses about stuff not covered in the game are actual facts, there's not much point in talking to you.   There is ZERO information on the Orlesian forces or their plans.    The Gray Wardens coming with Riordan are probably not the "army" that  Cailan was referring to.

What gives you the idea that the Orlesians used "all their force" to hold Ferelden?   Do we know what else was going on in Orlais?   Britain certainly didn't use "all their force" trying to hold the Colonies in the American Revolution.   The Peripheral wars don't necessarily get the resources they need.

Yes, the plan was to kill Cailan once that last council session was finished.   But that was well after the plan was actually created.  Its far more likely the plan was to wipe out the Gray Wardens, who were busy filling the King's head with fantasies of heroic combat instead of the gritty reality of battle (in Loghain's view).   Cailan wasn't a target until the very end, IMHO.  It could have been the plan from the start, but if so you have to pretty much discount large amounts of information as disinformation.  And that makes arguing especially pointless.

[Ulicus]

Forgive me for the nitpick, but I don't think Cailan ever became a "target". I think it would be fairer to say that, once Loghain determined that Cailan would fight on the front lines despite all his protestations, he became collateral.

[Dark83]

Howe killed the Couslands. If Cailan lived, Howe and his men would not. Howe isn't stupid enough to wipe out the Teryn's family without an assurance that he won't in turn be destroyed by the king. Loghain was that assurance. Especially if you are a Human Noble, the moment you show up, Loghain needs Cailan dead, or his conspiracy will be exposed.

[Ulicus]

Not so. Howe had "proof" that the Couslands had betrayed Ferelden and says as much. Undoubtedly false, certainly, but likely to have been convincing.

[Reader81]

Dark83 wrote...

Howe killed the Couslands. If Cailan lived, Howe and his men would not. Howe isn't stupid enough to wipe out the Teryn's family without an assurance that he won't in turn be destroyed by the king. Loghain was that assurance. Especially if you are a Human Noble, the moment you show up, Loghain needs Cailan dead, or his conspiracy will be exposed.

No, I think Loghain has rather Cailan alive than side with Howe, or at least his risk hurting his kid at that's time, so Loghain do not make %100 agreement  at least with Howe untill Loghain has no choice in his eye that Cailan has to go then he willing put Howe awl of those city and side with him after not willing to aid Cailan and gray Warden when enemie overwheling them.

[Relshar]

Loghain is an arse.

He plotted to take the throne way before Ostagar. He planned to murder Eamon so he wont be around to question about Cailens death as they were blood related.

Howe took out the Couslands because they were staunch supporters of the royal family.

Loghain blames the Grey Wardens for the kings death because he hates the Orlasian people.



His whole plan was for him to take the throne, but it only ended up destroying the country he loved due to the Blight. Something that he himself denied.

Seeing his plans start to fall appart he then plots to kill his own daughter and tourtures nobles to make them fall into line. Then sells Elven citizens to Tvintar slavers, he consorts with Blood Mages and Abominations as well to top off his crimes.



Loghain is not an honourable man and deserves to die like a dog, not duel a grey warden then hope for mercy.

[Ariella]

You do not sell Loghain.... Loghain sells you! Just asked the city elves.

[Galad22]

Ulicus wrote...

Not so. Howe had "proof" that the Couslands had betrayed Ferelden and says as much. Undoubtedly false, certainly, but likely to have been convincing.

Cailan would not have believed it, certainly not when we are alive. He even promises us that Howe would hang. Even Loghain says when you talk to him in his tent that he sees no reason why Cailan would back out from his word.
So he knows about it. Yet he does nothing about Howe, Howe is his closest aide even.

Besides you can't just go being vigilante and murder whole noble family in ferelden just because you have some proof that they might be traitor. Landsmeet can judge and hang traitors in these cases I assume if they believe it is true.

So certainly only way Howe would have gotten away with Cousland murders if Cailan would end up dead.

[Ulicus]

Relshar wrote...

Loghain is an arse

Yeah.

Relshar wrote...
He plotted to take the throne way before Ostagar.

No evidence.

Relshar wrote...
He planned to murder Eamon so he wont be around to question about Cailens death as they were blood related.

The game is confused on this. Ostagar begins with Duncan telling Cailan that Eamon will be ready to send troops within the week, which doesn't suggest he's particularly ill. It's only Ser... whatshisface in Lothering who introduces us to Eamon having fallen ill prior to Ostagar. Which doesn't really make a great deal of sense with the timeline.

Relshar wrote...
Howe took out the Couslands because they were staunch supporters of the royal family.

No, he wanted their lands and had "proof" that they were traitors to Ferelden.

Relshar wrote...
Loghain blames the Grey Wardens for the kings death because he hates the Orlasian people.

Well, that and to shift focus away from his own role in Cailan's death.

Relshar wrote...
His whole plan was for him to take the throne, but it only ended up destroying the country he loved due to the Blight. Something that he himself denied.

He never planned to take the throne from Anora. He denied the Blight initially and then, eventually, came to accept it.... but by that point the civil war was already in full swing.

Relshar wrote...
Seeing his plans start to fall appart he then plots to kill his own daughter and tourtures nobles to make them fall into line.

You're right on the latter point, but wrong on the former. Anora was being economical with the truth.

Relshar wrote...
Then sells Elven citizens to Tvintar slavers

Yeah, he's a ****. He regrets what he sees as the "necessity" of it but he's still a ****.

Relshar wrote...he consorts with Blood Mages and Abominations as well to top off his crimes.

He didn't have any idea about the abominations, nor how crazy Uldred was: he just wanted the Mage's support and was willing to give them more freedom from the Chantry. He and Wynne have a conversation about the whole thing in their banter.

Galad22 wrote...

Cailan would not have believed it,
certainly not when we are alive. He even promises us that Howe would
hang. Even Loghain says when you talk to him in his tent that he sees
no reason why Cailan would back out from his word.
So he knows about it. Yet he does nothing about Howe, Howe is his closest aide even.

Besides
you can't just go being vigilante and murder whole noble family in
ferelden just because you have some proof that they might be traitor.
Landsmeet can judge and hang traitors in these cases I assume if they
believe it is true.

So certainly only way Howe would have gotten away with Cousland murders if Cailan would end up dead.

Cailan is told: "We were betrayed and attacked by Arl Howe for no justifiable reason! Avenge us" and agrees based solely on that information. If he was presented with compelling "evidence" that proved the Couslands were traitors, however, he would have to reassess such a promise.

We simply cannot know what Cailan would or wouldn't have done when faced with whatever evidence Howe had invented.

Modifié par Ulicus, 17 décembre 2009 - 06:50 .

[Vormaerin]

Galad22 wrote...

Besides you can't just go being vigilante and murder whole noble family in ferelden just because you have some proof that they might be traitor. Landsmeet can judge and hang traitors in these cases I assume if they believe it is true.

So certainly only way Howe would have gotten away with Cousland murders if Cailan would end up dead.

Are you sure about that?   There are numerous comments in the codex about how the bannorn fight private wars all the time.   And no one tries you for murdering Howe, though Loghain does bring it up.   Its actually pretty unlikely that Cailan can just have Howe executed without some sort of trial by his peers, at least not without causing substantial unrest.   There's plenty of examples of that exact issue in the real world.

And the trial is by no means a given if Cailan pushes it.   Loghain will support the "they sold out to Orlais" argument and Arl Eamon won't be around to support the King (being sick and all).   Its entirely possible that the Landsmeet would just say   "Bah, the Howes and Couslands have been at war on an off ever since the Couslands first usurped control of Highever from the Howes hundreds of years ago.   For once, the Howes actually won a round."

[Dark83]

Ulicus wrote...

Not so. Howe had "proof" that the Couslands had betrayed Ferelden and says as much. Undoubtedly false, certainly, but likely to have been convincing.

If you are the Human Noble, and Cailan was alive, he would not be able to  use this lie given that the king (of whom the Couslands are ardent supporters) would be against him, as opposed to him being backed by the man who siezed the throne.

Reader81 wrote...
No, I think Loghain has rather Cailan alive
than side with Howe, or at least his risk hurting his kid at that's
time, so Loghain do not make %100 agreement  at least with Howe untill
Loghain has no choice in his eye that Cailan has to go then he willing
put Howe awl of those city and side with him after not willing to aid
Cailan and gray Warden when enemie overwheling them.

This is one incoherant rambling run-on sentance. I have no idea what you're saying, other than you disagree.

[Ulicus]

Dark83 wrote...

If you are the Human Noble, and Cailan was alive, he would not be able to  use this lie given that the king (of whom the Couslands are ardent supporters) would be against him, as opposed to him being backed by the man who siezed the throne.

If your character is the Human Noble, Howe's intention was for them to die in the attack. The only Cousland he likely had plans for dealing with after the attack was Fergus, who wouldn't have been able to offer any eyewitness testimony as to what went on at Castle Highever and may have been implicated in whatever faux evidence Howe had put together.

So, in one sense I suppose you're right: had Cailan lived after encountering the Human Noble, Howe's plans would be on shakier ground. However, since Howe's plans assumed the death of the Human Noble, they did not need to also take into account the death of the King. 

Considering Howe's low opinion of the King's intelligence, I imagine he thought he could quite easily pull the wool over his eyes.

[Dark83]

Ulicus wrote...

If your character is the Human Noble, Howe's intention was for them to die in the attack. The only Cousland he likely had plans for dealing with after the attack was Fergus, who wouldn't have been able to offer any eyewitness testimony as to what went on at Castle Highever and may have been implicated in whatever faux evidence Howe had put together.

So, in one sense I suppose you're right: had Cailan lived after encountering the Human Noble, Howe's plans would be on shakier ground. However, since Howe's plans assumed the death of the Human Noble, they did not need to also take into account the death of the King. 

Considering Howe's low opinion of the King's intelligence, I imagine he thought he could quite easily pull the wool over his eyes.

On a broader political sense however, he is on shaky ground regardless.

Sequence of events: The Couslands are known for being loyal to the king. They dispatch their army under the king's orders, and the army behaves perfectly normally as loyal vassals to the king. Howe claims they are traitors, and kills them all. Once they're dead, he conveniently has all sorts of accusations and proof that the (dead) Couslands cannot respond to. Then he takes over their position and holdings. Yeah. Nobody will question that. The only reason he wouldn't be challenged is if the one with the most influence backs him up. With Loghain in charge, nobody will challenge the ridiculus sequence of events. With Cailan in charge and not backing him up? No credibility, especially since Cailan would know that Fergus & Co did their duty and commited no treason.

Just look at the scenario, and assume Howe is a smart guy.

Subject A, at the command of the King sends off all his forces to serve the King. Said army behaves normally (that is, like normal loyal troops) under the King's command. Subject A is known to be a royalist and supporter of the King. Subject B, who's army is late, kills Subject A and his entire family, then siezes his holdings. He then claims Subject A was a traitor, conveniently after nobody lives to respond, and producing evidence only he has.

That's just stupid. That's like me breaking into your mansion, kill you and your entire household, servants and all, and taking everything for myself and control of your company. Then saying "Oh, he (and his entire family, including the little children, and all the servants) was a terrorist, look at my documents. I did it all for my country, ain't I swell?" 

That scenario only works if I have backing from somewhere, so that nobody questions my credibility. If the Homeland Security director stands next to me and goes "Oh hey, documents. Yeah, I believe him." Who would dare challenge me otherwise? As opposed to if the President goes "Hey wait, I just had lunch with him, what do you mean traitor? Let me see those documents..." in which case everybody else will go "yeah, let me look at those... and why do you get the company?"

Modifié par Dark83, 17 décembre 2009 - 09:23 .

[robertthebard]

Ulicus wrote...

Not so. Howe had "proof" that the Couslands had betrayed Ferelden and says as much. Undoubtedly false, certainly, but likely to have been convincing.

Assuming Cailin was victorious at Ostagar, what good would his proof do to the army that just marched in and retook the keep?  There's not going to be a debate, or a Landsmeet, there's going to be a pitched battle with Howe facing the Ferelden army.  Now, maybe after the fact, Howe may get his "day in court", assuming he lived, but first and foremost is the army that's marching on him, and that battle is likely lost.  Add to this that the Couslands were supporters of Maric, and then Cailin, and you get the unpleasant reality of Howe had to have had some assurance that that wouldn't happen.  When Howe's men should have been marching with Cousland's men to the battle at Ostagar, they were instead setting up for a coup on Highever.  He must have known there would be no reprisals, or he would have attempted something similar far before this story line unfolded.

[Galad22]

Vormaerin wrote...

Are you sure about that?   There are numerous comments in the codex about how the bannorn fight private wars all the time.   And no one tries you for murdering Howe, though Loghain does bring it up.   Its actually pretty unlikely that Cailan can just have Howe executed without some sort of trial by his peers, at least not without causing substantial unrest.   There's plenty of examples of that exact issue in the real world.

And the trial is by no means a given if Cailan pushes it.   Loghain will support the "they sold out to Orlais" argument and Arl Eamon won't be around to support the King (being sick and all).   Its entirely possible that the Landsmeet would just say   "Bah, the Howes and Couslands have been at war on an off ever since the Couslands first usurped control of Highever from the Howes hundreds of years ago.   For once, the Howes actually won a round."

I base it on two things.

You can say to Howe when you first go to Denerim with Eamon

-Prove it to the landsmeet. They still hang murdereds there.

And Loghain says in landsmeet

- Whatever Howe may have done he should have been brought before the seneschal. There is no justice in butchering man in his own home.

Yet Howe did exactly that, Loghain knew and didn't care. Besides we did were thrown to prison for Howes murder.

However of course I can't be sure, but I assume because of these that random murders aren't generally tolerated, not random murders of whole noble families anyway.

And Ulicus, Couslands opposed Orlesians from the start during Orlesia rule, when again Howe's family were collaberators for a long time. Why would Couslands now become traitors? There is no reason and no one would believe it, certainly not coming from former Orlesian collaborator.

Modifié par Galad22, 17 décembre 2009 - 10:11 .

[TrinityDivine]

The best reason to choose Loghain over Alistair is that the bad guy gets to die in the end. Period.

[Lastrights]

My one and only reason for taking Logain pretty simple. Unlock the Achievement.

[Relshar]

TrinityDivine wrote...

The best reason to choose Loghain over Alistair is that the bad guy gets to die in the end. Period.

Why should he die a hero ? When he is a traitor and a murder. No he deserves no mercy. The only reason to pick him is to unlock the achievement. Other than that he should be swinging from the gallows. His death in the game via Alistair or the player is to quick in my eyes.

In the battle of Ostagar Loghain draws up the lines for battle, he leaves Cailen's lines wide open for attack. Cailens posistion is sound and they could of cut down the first wave of darkspawn easily if they used the terrain correctly. Loghain knew Cailen would have to lead one part of the army so it was not a case of wanting glory on Cailens part. Cailen only wanted to have the Grey Wardens with him. Probably due to his fathers close relationship with them. (not read the books but will do soon)

No sorry Howe and Loghain planned the kings death for months before hand. The Blight was possibly a blessing in disguise for Loghain when it happend as it made his plans alot easier to initiate.

[Vormaerin]

Galad22 wrote...

I base it on two things.

You can say to Howe when you first go to Denerim with Eamon

-Prove it to the landsmeet. They still hang murdereds there.

Umm, that's exactly what I said....   It was up to the Landsmeet to decide whether the Cousland affair was murder or legitimate war.   Cailan's opinion may have been important to the Landsmeet, but he couldn't just have Howe executed.   So Howe's attack on the Couslands is not a prima facie case for premeditation in Cailan's death.

Look at how easily Loghain dominated the Landsmeet even with all the evidence of his subsequent crimes out there.  Back when he was a hero, especially a hero with a chastened King and a series of victories over the darkspawn under his belt?   Probably not even a contest.  Its happened often enough in real life, after all.

[Galad22]

Vormaerin wrote...

Umm, that's exactly what I said....   It was up to the Landsmeet to decide whether the Cousland affair was murder or legitimate war.   Cailan's opinion may have been important to the Landsmeet, but he couldn't just have Howe executed.   So Howe's attack on the Couslands is not a prima facie case for premeditation in Cailan's death.

Look at how easily Loghain dominated the Landsmeet even with all the evidence of his subsequent crimes out there.  Back when he was a hero, especially a hero with a chastened King and a series of victories over the darkspawn under his belt?   Probably not even a contest.  Its happened often enough in real life, after all.

If arl can kill his own Teyrn, then certainly king can kill some Arl.

If Howe doesn't need to show anyone any evidence before he decides to butcher someone, why should King have to do it?

Look Howe basically abandoned his king in Ostagar, Ostagar is where he should have brought his men, instead he took over highever and none of his men ever left for Ostagar. He also should have gone there himself.

That is desertion and certainly treason, and most definitely warrants execution.

So how do suggest he would have survived that?

Modifié par Galad22, 17 décembre 2009 - 11:36 .

[Ulicus]

Dark and Robert, you make good points, I'm just far too lazy to respond to them in full right now. Take that as a concession if you like. To be quite honest, I think my opinion is too informed, at present, by having recently gone through the Loghain party banter... in which characters such as Wynne, of all people, eventually decide that they misjudged Loghain and apologise. It's also very hard to believe that Loghain isn't convinced that he had to abandon the field at Ostagar or that he wanted to kill Cailan when you hear him discussing it with the other party members.

It doesn't help that there's no way for a Human Noble to confront Loghain over the death of his family, or inquire into Loghain's role, if any.

Galad:
Regardless of his family history, during his years with the Rebellion, Rendon Howe was decorated for valour by King Maric, himself. He also very clearly depises Orlesians (all foreigners, actually), so I doubt his loyalty to Ferelden (even if his loyalty to himself comes first) would be questioned.

I'd actually be very interested to see a novel or short story that explored Arl Howe's background and character, because I think that's a really promising tale just waiting to be told. I also want to see how he got a hold of Amaranthine, considering those were the lands of the young Arl Byron (presumably a Howe relative, maybe even "Arl Byron Howe") in TST, who had his heirs sent North.

Modifié par Ulicus, 17 décembre 2009 - 11:40 .

[Layn]

Relshar wrote...
Cailen only wanted to have the Grey Wardens with him. Probably due to his fathers close relationship with them. (not read the books but will do soon)

No sorry Howe and Loghain planned the kings death for months before hand. The Blight was possibly a blessing in disguise for Loghain when it happend as it made his plans alot easier to initiate.

i might just be remembering it wrongly, but it seemed to me like everyone (including Loghain) thought it was a bad idea for Cailan to be at the frontline, but Cailan went on and on about honor, glory and fighting beside those awesome shiny grey wardens, and grey wardens are awesome, and they are so awesome and he has to fight beside them, and they really are awesome.
i really got the impression that Cailan's death was collateral, that Loghain wanted to avoid it, but if Cailan should die, he wouldn't really care.
then again, i haven't played that part in quite a while

[Galad22]

Ulicus wrote...

Galad:
Regardless of his family history, during his years with the Rebellion, Rendon Howe was decorated for valour by King Maric, himself. He also very clearly depises Orlesians (all foreigners, actually), so I doubt his loyalty to Ferelden (even if his loyalty to himself comes first) would be questioned.

I'd actually be very interested to see a novel or short story that explored Arl Howe's background and character, because I think that's a really promising tale just waiting to be told. I also want to see how he got a hold of Amaranthine, considering those were the lands of the young Arl Byron (presumably a Howe relative, maybe even "Arl Byron Howe") in TST, who had his heirs sent North.

True but my point was that noone would either doubt Couslands loyalty to Ferelden either, Couslands after all fought Orlesian invaders from the start.

[Vormaerin]

You are making a ton of assumptions. First, that Howe was expected at Ostagar. After all, Arl Eamon's forces weren't there or expected for quite some time. Same with most of the realm... after all, if all those lords had been at Ostagar they wouldn't exactly be wondering what had actually happened there, would they?

So desertion and treason are not at all justified accusations to level at Howe. Even if they were, its hardly uncommon in history for feudal lords to arrive late to royal musters and get away with it.

And yes, Cailan could murder Howe if he wanted to. But that would be murder and probably cause tons of problems, even if you accept that a shiny honor type like Cailan would actually commit murder.

No one is going to like Rendon Howe for killing the Couslands, but war between the Bannorn is accepted. And Highever did used to be a Howe Estate and the Couslands did forcibly annex chunks of Amaranthine in the process of building their power up. Howe's public argument is going to be they are traitors...apparently with Loghain's support for that accusation. And his private argument is going to be "I'm just getting back what was my family's before the Couslands stole it from us".

Feudal monarchies are pretty rarely stable or governed by law in the sense we understand it. Actions like Howe's aren't "common", but they are far from unheard of. Regardless, Howe's actions aren't proof that Cailan must die. Its just proof he's not afraid of Cailan...and Loghain's patronage is good enough reason for that.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 18 décembre 2009 - 12:45 .

[Galad22]

Teyrn Cousland was at least called there, I believe also Howe was. Besides Teyrn can call their arls for soldiers in a case of war which we know that at least happened. Feargus would have told the king that his father + Howe would show up later. So how is not desertion justified he was most definitely supposed to be there.

They were supposed to leave only day later.

There is also other proof here for you. Arl eamon was poisoned before ostagar, his knight in lotherin tells you so.

Modifié par Galad22, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:02 .