138 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

Howe _was_ expected at Ostagar, he was supposed to ride with Bryce Cousland, which is why he was in the castle to begin with. The Howes are vassals to the Couslands, so even if it was not explicitly stated it would have been expected.



Howe may have had convincing evidence that the Couslands were getting friendly with Orlesians; in the beginning of the Human Noble origin, Eleanor talks about how Bryce had been to Orlais and brought her a gift back because a marquis thought he was the king.



At any rate, Howe by himself is not convincing evidence that Loghain planned to get Cailin killed and steal the throne, since everything Howe does he could have done on his own, without making a deal with Loghain, and had himself covered.

The real strike against Loghain is the fact that Eamon is poisoned prior to Ostagar, assuming you believe that to be true. Duncan says Eamon's forces could be there within a week, but unless you detoured through Redcliffe on your way to Ostagar, that may be old news. According to the knight in Lothering, Eamon was poisoned prior. If this was true, Loghain was very likely planning to let Cailin kill himself. It's suggested by 3 separate people that Loghain was behind Eamon's poisoning, so I do believe that to be true (unsure whether he confirms this in dialogue if you recruit him, only did one playthrough with him recruited), but if that's the case Loghain didn't really have an reason to have Eamon killed unless he planned to somehow take more power.

[Dark83]

Hm. Come to think of it, does Jowan say that Howe got him to poison the Arl, or Loghain?

[Galad22]

Jowan says that Loghain himself recruited him. He knew because he had seen paintings of Teyrn.

eschilde wrote...

 According to the knight in Lothering,
Eamon was poisoned prior. If this was true, Loghain was very likely
planning to let Cailin kill himself. 

And that knight have no reason to lie. He even doubts it was Loghain just because arl Eamon got sick before Ostagar.

Modifié par Galad22, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:29 .

[Ulicus]

I think he says he was hired by Teyrn Loghain, though he might have said "an agent of Teyrn Loghain".

And that was no help at all.

Edit:
Galad beat me.

Though getting Eamon out of the picture might have had nothing to do with wanting the King *dead* and everything to do with wanting to get rid of a rival for the King's ear. One who would no doubt encourage aid from Orlais.

Modifié par Ulicus, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:28 .

[eschilde]

Ulicus wrote...

I think he says he was hired by Teyrn Loghain, though he might have said "an agent of Teyrn Loghain".

And that was no help at all.

Edit:
Galad beat me.

Though getting Eamon out of the picture might have had nothing to do with wanting the King *dead* and everything to do with wanting to get rid of a rival for the King's ear. One who would no doubt encourage aid from Orlais.

This is true. It's hard to say how bad Loghain's paranoia was. But if he was willing to off a man he respected and was the former queen's brother, he was probably willing to plan for Cailin dying.

[robertthebard]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

menasure wrote...

i think Ostagar would have been more interesting if you could not see the figth in scope ... much like your character never sees it because the doubt about what Loghain did would remain then. eventually your character only hears what happened from Morrigan and Flemeth ... not exactly the most trustworthy people. when you think about it there is still room for doubt left because of the timing when the pyre was eventually lit.

I think that would work.

You and Alistair are at the tower. You don't see the state of the battle or what Loghain did.  You know the pre-battle plans are messed up. The darkspawn have taken the tower and the signal is late. You are unconscious for a few days. There is a time gap in your knowledge.

Bioware could have written Ostager as a mystery. You would hear rumours and folklore about what happened. Enemies of Loghain might have their agenda in spreading their version. Alistair could be paranoid, jumping to conclusions looking for someone to blame.

Except that it's made clear that you can see the battle from the Tower of Ishal.  How much you see would be limited by being overwhelmed by darkspawn soon after the beacon is lit, however.  So it might still work that way.

As to selling someone on Loghain, I will say this; there are two achievements that you can't unlock if you don't let him kill the archdemon.  As for redeeming himself, I actually did let him live once where he didn't get to die from killing the archdemon, because I made him sleep with Morrigan.  Then I ran away with Leliana and left him to rebuild the order that he all but destroyed in Ferelden.  Poetic justice FTW.

[Ulicus]

eschilde wrote...

This is true. It's hard to say how bad Loghain's paranoia was. But if he was willing to off a man he respected and was the former queen's brother, he was probably willing to plan for Cailin dying.

Well, it's said in TST that he "plans for the worst", at least originally.

[Vormaerin]

The Couslands had extensive (almost certainly innocent) dealings with the Orlesians (as witnessed by the Orlesian Marquis who "mistakenly" thinks Bryce is the King of Ferelden). Eamon is married to an Orlesian noblewoman. They are both suspect in Loghain's eyes.



Loghain's "plan" is to get rid of the supposed Orlesian sympathizers in the Court. That's Duncan, Eamon, and the Couslands. Destroying them is not evidence he intended to kill Cailan. Its evidence he didn't want Cailan listening to them.

[Zan Mura]

My Dwarf Noble had the decision pretty much cut out for him. Alistair was constantly grating on his nerves with his naivé whinings and emotional bias on every practical issue there was, where Loghain was a powerful, intelligent and accomplished adversary worthy of respect. Just the character being himself, he soon found Loghain to fit right in with Morrigan, Sten and Shale anyway.

To Moras Aeducan (the PC), there were some difficult choices throughout the course of the story. But this was not among them. If Alistair so wished to die, then that was his decision. For an heir to a throne, grown in Dwarven politics where sentimentality has no place whatsoever, as all decisions are based on startegy, tactics and simple practicality... the issue of even a friend placing petty personal desires over the safety of the entire world was a no-brainer.

[Galad22]

Vormaerin wrote...

The Couslands had extensive (almost certainly innocent) dealings with the Orlesians (as witnessed by the Orlesian Marquis who "mistakenly" thinks Bryce is the King of Ferelden). Eamon is married to an Orlesian noblewoman. They are both suspect in Loghain's eyes.

Loghain's "plan" is to get rid of the supposed Orlesian sympathizers in the Court. That's Duncan, Eamon, and the Couslands. Destroying them is not evidence he intended to kill Cailan. Its evidence he didn't want Cailan listening to them.

And how can you know that? I admit that it is a possibility, but it is almost as likely if not more so that he intended to kill Cailan from the start.

[Vormaerin]

Its only as likely if you assume that everything he says in Ostagar is a lie or some sort of reverse psychology gambit to get Cailan to do exactly the opposite of what he recommends.



Its certainly possible that he always intended to kill Cailan, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. The battle at Ostagar surely wasn't the best place to arrange for Cailan to have an accident, after all.



A minor point is that Loghain owns up to everything except plotting to kill Cailan. Loghain is obviously irrational about some things (namely Orlais), so you can certainly impute all manner of other degrees of cognitive dissonance to him. But I think doing so is unjustified.

[Galad22]

Loghain doesn't actually admit anything else but selling elves. Torturing people was according to him, all Howe. He denies sending Jowan to kill Eamon. He even denies that he left Cailan to die, just keep on about some none existent trap.



Sure there is that one sentence backing up that he didn't want for Cailan to die in Ostagar at first, but there are other evidence that suggest othervise and make lot more sense if he intended to kill Cailan from the start. And to me those points won't make much sense if Cailan would have been alive after those "accidents".

[Ulicus]

If I take out insurance, it doesn't mean I intend to get robbed, or killed or whatever. It means I'm planning for the worst. A trait ascribed to Loghain by both the narrator of TST and Anora in DA:O.

Modifié par Ulicus, 18 décembre 2009 - 09:10 .

[Galad22]

In this case insurance can end off as he getting hanged if worst doesn't happen though? So it's odd sort of insurance.



I would expect that it would be hard for even him to get off nice and safe for couple of murders.