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[MerchantGOL]

iakus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

iakus wrote...

Naugi wrote...

lmao, seriously? You dont even know what youre saying. You dont want the Geth / EDI to die because YOU  like them. The only ingame representation of this is that Shepard likes them, you're playing as Shepard, if you want the beam not to kill the Geth and EDI then the only way this can work logically in the game is that Shepard, also, wants the beam to not kill the Geth and EDI because he likes them.

So again, I ask you, how can an EMP style device that destroys synthetics know which ones Commander Shepard likes?

I dunno, how does it know not to target biotics or cyborgs (except Shepard apparantly?)  Those are partly-synthetic beings.

Biotics arent partialy  synthetic, and what cyborgs do we see that are fine after thewave?

Biotics are cyborgs.  They have implants in their nervous systems and brains.  That's why Kaidan has migraines:  his L2 implants aren't totally stable.  One reason he gave for not getting new ones is one slipup  from a surgeon could leave him brain damaged  How bad would a galaxy-wide EMP be?

As for other cyborgs, the quarians are a good example...

neithe rof those exmaples are cyborgs, just cause kaiden ahs an implant dosnet mean is part synthetic any more then a guy with a pace maker, further more the destory wave dosent kill all technolgy, judging by how it leaves alot of reappers bodies intact it quite clearly targets Ai's

[Iakus]

MerchantGOL wrote...
 neithe rof those exmaples are cyborgs, just cause kaiden ahs an implant dosnet mean is part synthetic any more then a guy with a pace maker, further more the destory wave dosent kill all technolgy, judging by how it leaves alot of reappers bodies intact it quite clearly targets Ai's

Yet it targets Shepard, who is definitely not an AI, as both EDI and the Kronos station videos verify, Shepard's mind is completely organic.

[elitehunter34]

Naugi wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

Naugi wrote...

lmao, seriously? You dont even know what youre saying. You dont want the Geth / EDI to die because YOU  like them. The only ingame representation of this is that Shepard likes them, you're playing as Shepard, if you want the beam not to kill the Geth and EDI then the only way this can work logically in the game is that Shepard, also, wants the beam to not kill the Geth and EDI because he likes them.

So again, I ask you, how can an EMP style device that destroys synthetics know which ones Commander Shepard likes?

If you are going to continue to straw man me I will not continue this debate.  Give me evidence right now that shows that my argument is based on me liking the Geth/EDI.  You're entire argument is based on this assumption.

My argument is that the deaths of the Geth/EDI feel contrived because the Crucible has shown that it has the technology to avoid doing so.  
Me liking the Geth/EDI is entirely irrelevant to my argument. 

"So again, I ask you, how can an EMP style device that destroys synthetics know which ones Commander Shepard likes  [how to distinguish between the Reapers and other synthetics]? "

Because it is reasonable to assume that it has sufficently advanced technology to do so.  If it can do Synthesis, then it can distinguish between the Geth/EDI.  You might disagree with that, fine, but don't insult me by deliberately misrepresenting my arguments.

Honestly you misquote yourself and misreprensent your own argument, and dont even acknowledge the basic fact of the matter that not wanting EDI or the Geth to die is an emotional issue.

You dont answer anything that asks how a machine knows which synthetic races in the galaxy Commander Shepards wants it not to target?

Its all based on emotional attachments that you take for granted, that you assume Shepard shares, and that you somehow miraculously expect a mechanical device to know about.

You so take for granted that EDI and the Geth do not belong in the group with the Reapers that you expect somehow the device to have been built knowing this too. It was assembled, it would need to have been built with an extra bit in it that removes EDI and the Geth from its targetting. Who would build it like that, why would they? How would they know they had to? Would they have a board meeting and say 'look guys, we really cant have this thing killing the Geth, Shepard really likes them, so take this bit out here (see instructions, part 4. and we should be fine!'

You just dont get it, I dont think you will. Nevermind, its been amusing.

"Would they have a board meeting and say 'look guys, we really cant have this thing killing the Geth"

The fact that geth engineers were working on the project.  The geth want to exist, they would've noticed this. 

Whether or not I care about the Geth/EDI is still irrelevant to my argument.  Drop this point.

[daaaav]

Naugi wrote...



Haha, knew you would pick the one thing in my entire post that had a slight flaw and onyl comment on that, typical!

I was just about to edit it to say that it only controls those eligible, i.e. ALL REAPERS, you cant tell it that you dont like Harbinger and have it blow him up instead.

Honestly, that was lame to just pick the last sentence and ignore the rest, very lame. You're not answering anything put forward and deliberately evading everything that proves you horribly wrong.

Pointless when you encounter someone that stubborn to carry on. You dont like what the writers did, I get that. But at least as the options are in the game, you cannot expect the Destroy option operate in any other way than to kill everything it is set to target.

Control does CONTROL EVERYONE it is set to target.
Synthesis does the same, as does Destroy.
You cannot ask Destroy to vary its targets according to Shepards heart.

I'm sorry but I think i attach a slightly higher value to your minor slip up than you do and I wasn't meaning to ignore the rest.

Throughout your posts you have given the crucible a myriad of characteristics and limitations defined by YOU.


Assumptions like:

"it only controls those eligible, i.e REAPERS"

And one from the other guy (sorry i've forgoten your name)

"there is a guiding mind behind the control wave"

What are you basing this on? There are a few codex entries granted but it simply is not enough.

The inescapable fact is that the crucible functions EXACTLY as the writers intend. I.E that it can synthesise and that it can't distinguish between the Geth and Reapers in the Destroy bean but it CAN in the control beam.

This is why MacGuffins and Deus Ex Machinas are so terrible.

[elitehunter34]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Again you contiue to ignore that machinees and orgnaics are diffrent, it would be easier to sort outorganics the synthitics

futhermore if synthesis targest all organice life on a gentci scale then it dosent need to difeientrate it  just  throws in what ever its doing on that levle.


also again destorying  some thing is vastly diffrent then synthesis in the effect. as well as  ive staed   its clear that  the destory wave is not the intended  use for the curcible  seing as  shepard  has to activate that by manualy  destorying some thing, its a forced  malfunction.

"also again destorying  some thing is vastly diffrent then synthesis in the effect. as well as  ive staed   its clear that  the destory wave is not the intended  use for the curcible  seing as  shepard  has to activate that by manualy  destorying some thing, its a forced  malfunction."

This is speculation, not evidence.  It is therefore meaningless.

"futhermore if synthesis targest all organice life on a gentci scale then it dosent need to difeientrate it  just  throws in what ever its doing on that levle." 

Being able to target all life on a genetic scale is differentiating.  Why?  Because by the very definition of species, different species must be different.  One set of instructions on altering genetics will not work on multiple species because they are different. 

So, by the very nature of the device, it must be able to distinguish between organic races.

"Again you contiue to ignore that machinees and orgnaics are diffrent, it would be easier to sort outorganics the synthitics"

I will grant you that it is reasonable to assume that it is easier to sort between organics and synthetics than it is to distinguish between different synthetic races (Geth/EDI and Reapers for example).  However, this is not the point of my argument.

By you're logic control should take control over the Reapers and the Geth/EDI because you believe that the Crucible can't distinguish between synthetics.

Look I know what you're going to say "but control is different than destroy" 

Then we are brought right back to the point that I made earlier.  You are commiting the fallacy of special pleading.  You are arguing that each of the 3 options of the Crucible are subject to different criteria for no other reason other than the fact that they happened in the credits. 

Answer this question that I asked you ignored before.  Why should waves originating from the same device have inconsistant technological limitations?  This question is entirelly revelant to the debate at hand.  If you refuse to answer it, I will refuse to continue this discussion.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:05 .

[MerchantGOL]

iakus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
 neithe rof those exmaples are cyborgs, just cause kaiden ahs an implant dosnet mean is part synthetic any more then a guy with a pace maker, further more the destory wave dosent kill all technolgy, judging by how it leaves alot of reappers bodies intact it quite clearly targets Ai's

Yet it targets Shepard, who is definitely not an AI, as both EDI and the Kronos station videos verify, Shepard's mind is completely organic.

yes but he is still held together by synthetic parts. not just an implant here or there

[Iakus]

MerchantGOL wrote...

iakus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
 neithe rof those exmaples are cyborgs, just cause kaiden ahs an implant dosnet mean is part synthetic any more then a guy with a pace maker, further more the destory wave dosent kill all technolgy, judging by how it leaves alot of reappers bodies intact it quite clearly targets Ai's

Yet it targets Shepard, who is definitely not an AI, as both EDI and the Kronos station videos verify, Shepard's mind is completely organic.

yes but he is still held together by synthetic parts. not just an implant here or there

So now the blast counts the number of implants you have before deciding to fry you or not?

[daaaav]

MerchantGOL wrote...

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

control has a guiding mind behind it the other waves don't

And we're back to attempting to define the mechanics of a machine that is at best poorly defined and at worst a complete unknown.

This is why MacGuffins and Deus Ex Machinas have no place in a good story.

Lord of the rings, The matrix,the previous mass effect games, the fall out games, and many many other stories in diffrnet medias all say your wrong.


but even then  the machien has no bearing ont he fact that their is a firgging diffrence between organics and synthetics

Not terribly fond of the Matrix from a storyline perspective...

Yes, the Lord of the Rings had a few good examples (Ghost Men of Dunharrow or whatever and the Eagles saving Frodo at the end).

Please don't tell me your thinking of labelling the ring a MacGuffin or a Deus Ex Machina. It simply isn't. The ring is given alot of characterisation throughout the trillogy and is essentially a character in it's own right.

[Kileyan]

So what I gather is this machine has watched too many game shows. Although it is capable of very much intelligence, able to discern different races, instantly analyze them to a molecular level, instantly change them safely, it is unable to do any of those things if you choose door number X, kill reapers. All its ability is lost, it has no intelligence, and its just a big fugging emp bomb that kills all ai's.

Can we replace the Starchild with the avatar of some cheesy game show host?

Basically it can instantly create brand new life by the trillions instantly, but it can't figure out how to kill Reapers without killing everything else that is synthetic, quite a story, I'd like Bioware to tell that story some day.

[CronoDragoon]

Naugi wrote...

Control does CONTROL EVERYONE it is set to target.
Synthesis does the same, as does Destroy.
You cannot ask Destroy to vary its targets according to Shepards heart.

This way of looking at things is already assuming the existence of what people are taking issue with: that the writers arbitrarily made the targets in Destroy different than in Control. It's clear the Crucible can do it. So why doesn't it? Because the writers wanted Destroy to be darker. That's it. 

[MerchantGOL]

[quote]elitehunter34 wrote...



This is speculation, not evidence.  It is therefore meaningless.[quote] its not speculation, do you know any machines that require shooting peice of it so it explodes as a pre requisite?

"futhermore if synthesis targest all organice life on a gentci scale then it dosent need to difeientrate it  just  throws in what ever its doing on that levle." 

[quote]Being able to target all life on a genetic scale is differentiating.  Why?  Because by the very definition of species, different species must be different.  One set of instructions on altering genetics will not work on multiple species because they are different. 

So, by the very nature of the device, it must be able to distinguish between organic races.[/quote] This is speculation, their are Disesas, posions, toxins and  pelnty of other things that  spread cross species on a cellular level differention isn't  complex, or needed.



[quote]I will grant you that it is reasonable to assume that it is easier to sort between organics and synthetics than it is to distinguish between different synthetic races (Geth/EDI and Reapers for example).  However, this is not the point of my argument.

By you're logic control should take control over the Reapers and the Geth/EDI because you believe that the Crucible can't distinguish between synthetics.[quote] wrong i belive the destory effect cant diffrent, the  beams are not the same thing, they have vaslty diffrent effects their is no reason why one should be bound by the same peramiters as the others





[quote]Answer this question that I asked you ignored before.  [color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Why should waves ]originating from the same device[/color] have inconsistant technological limitations?  This question is entirelly revelant to the debate at hand.  If you refuse to answer it, I will refuse to continue this discussion.

[/quote]simple, they are not doing the same things,they have diffrnet effects, diffrent causes,  diffrnet peramiters, one is a forced malfunction, one has a guiding mind behind it, The crucible isnt picking and choosing, not even with the reapers. your argument is based soley on your belife that in syntheisis its making an active process to do some thing diffrent with each peice of orgnaic life, which their is no evidence to support.

[Naugi]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Whether or not I care about the Geth/EDI is still irrelevant to my argument.  Drop this point.

LMAO

Why do you want it to not kill the Geth and EDI then? You dont want to lose EDI and the Geth. Why?

You cant even understand your own thought process ... quite odd really.

Anyway, consider it dropped, mostly because you defy all logic and reason.

[darthnick427]

I cared because it felt like Legion's sacrifice was almost in vain now. He sacrificed his life to give his people true intelligence and bring peace and Destroy almost made that redundant because of starchild's bull crap logic. EDI and the rest of the Geth I didn't care as much about. But it was Legion that made me hesitate to pick Destroy the first time.

Still pick Destroy every time. I've head canoned that the Geth get rebuilt by the Quarians and Geth survivors that were uploaded in Quarian suits.

Modifié par darthnick427, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:15 .

[MerchantGOL]

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

control has a guiding mind behind it the other waves don't

And we're back to attempting to define the mechanics of a machine that is at best poorly defined and at worst a complete unknown.

This is why MacGuffins and Deus Ex Machinas have no place in a good story.

Lord of the rings, The matrix,the previous mass effect games, the fall out games, and many many other stories in diffrnet medias all say your wrong.


but even then  the machien has no bearing ont he fact that their is a firgging diffrence between organics and synthetics

Not terribly fond of the Matrix from a storyline perspective...

Yes, the Lord of the Rings had a few good examples (Ghost Men of Dunharrow or whatever and the Eagles saving Frodo at the end).

Please don't tell me your thinking of labelling the ring a MacGuffin or a Deus Ex Machina. It simply isn't. The ring is given alot of characterisation throughout the trillogy and is essentially a character in it's own right.

its a ****ing macguffen, it is THE macguffen

[CronoDragoon]

EDI's death I actually don't have a problem with, since most of her character arc in ME3 was centered around her coming to understand the human value system, morals, etc. The conversation about humans choosing other life goals than survival becomes especially important to consider given the Destroy ending.

But the geth's importance thematically revolves around their peace with the quarians, and if you pick Destroy and essentially reject the Catalyst's assertions, then it seems especially important that the geth can survive to prove you right.

[MerchantGOL]

iakus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

iakus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
 neithe rof those exmaples are cyborgs, just cause kaiden ahs an implant dosnet mean is part synthetic any more then a guy with a pace maker, further more the destory wave dosent kill all technolgy, judging by how it leaves alot of reappers bodies intact it quite clearly targets Ai's

Yet it targets Shepard, who is definitely not an AI, as both EDI and the Kronos station videos verify, Shepard's mind is completely organic.

yes but he is still held together by synthetic parts. not just an implant here or there

So now the blast counts the number of implants you have before deciding to fry you or not?

no but the  risk of short circiuiting appears real, and hes not in direct danger as he isnt an ai, and we  know it dosent flat out kill machines, he still has enough  ****  in his head for him to be at risk obviously, the fact he survies shows its not a garunteed thign with him which is consistent 

[MerchantGOL]

CronoDragoon wrote...

EDI's death I actually don't have a problem with, since most of her character arc in ME3 was centered around her coming to understand the human value system, morals, etc. The conversation about humans choosing other life goals than survival becomes especially important to consider given the Destroy ending.

but she didnt  choose shepard chose for her

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
 neithe rof those exmaples are cyborgs, just cause kaiden ahs an implant dosnet mean is part synthetic any more then a guy with a pace maker, further more the destory wave dosent kill all technolgy, judging by how it leaves alot of reappers bodies intact it quite clearly targets Ai's

Yet it targets Shepard, who is definitely not an AI, as both EDI and the Kronos station videos verify, Shepard's mind is completely organic.

Shepard lives...Kind of debunks your argument there.

[SparkyRich]

I'd rather have sacrificed the Salarians. Only two cool ones in the whole species and one is already dead - don't know what happened to Kirahe....

[Naugi]

CronoDragoon wrote...

This way of looking at things is already assuming the existence of what people are taking issue with: that the writers arbitrarily made the targets in Destroy different than in Control. It's clear the Crucible can do it. So why doesn't it? Because the writers wanted Destroy to be darker. That's it. 

Yup, the writers wanted it this way, cant argue with that. Consequences ... gotta love em.

[daaaav]

MerchantGOL wrote...

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

control has a guiding mind behind it the other waves don't

And we're back to attempting to define the mechanics of a machine that is at best poorly defined and at worst a complete unknown.

This is why MacGuffins and Deus Ex Machinas have no place in a good story.

Lord of the rings, The matrix,the previous mass effect games, the fall out games, and many many other stories in diffrnet medias all say your wrong.


but even then  the machien has no bearing ont he fact that their is a firgging diffrence between organics and synthetics

Not terribly fond of the Matrix from a storyline perspective...

Yes, the Lord of the Rings had a few good examples (Ghost Men of Dunharrow or whatever and the Eagles saving Frodo at the end).

Please don't tell me your thinking of labelling the ring a MacGuffin or a Deus Ex Machina. It simply isn't. The ring is given alot of characterisation throughout the trillogy and is essentially a character in it's own right.

its a ****ing macguffen, it is THE macguffen

Call it one if you will, i don't think it is.

The briefcase in Pulp Fiction is a MacGuffin.

The ring has complex relationships with various other characters. We know what it can do and how it was made and how to destroy it. Would the plot to LOR work if you replaced the ring with the brief case in Pulp Fiction? Ofcourse not. But Pulp Fiction would arguably work if you replaced the Briefcase with another "MacGuffin".

[Kileyan]

MerchantGOL wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

EDI's death I actually don't have a problem with, since most of her character arc in ME3 was centered around her coming to understand the human value system, morals, etc. The conversation about humans choosing other life goals than survival becomes especially important to consider given the Destroy ending.

but she didnt  choose shepard chose for her

Eh?

edit nevermind, I misread the post context, yeh Shep chose for her.

Modifié par Kileyan, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:26 .

[Vortex13]

So if the Crucible is unable to discern between the Reapers and the good synthetics, then why with a low EMS destroy does it pretty much incinerate the Earth, and destroy all of Sword Fleet (Save Hackett's ship) and blow up the Relays?

I mean if the Crucible is unable to distinguish and is only an EMP bomb like others have said then why does it completly render the two soldiers fighting the husks at the end into ash with low EMS but not in high EMS?

I mean if the game says that with enough war assests the Destroy beam can be fine tuned enough to avoid killing Sword fleet, Earth, and the Realys then whats to say that it couldn't be fine tuned to avoid killing EDI and the Geth?

[daaaav]

Naugi wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

This way of looking at things is already assuming the existence of what people are taking issue with: that the writers arbitrarily made the targets in Destroy different than in Control. It's clear the Crucible can do it. So why doesn't it? Because the writers wanted Destroy to be darker. That's it. 

Yup, the writers wanted it this way, cant argue with that. Consequences ... gotta love em.

So... we agree?

[MerchantGOL]

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

control has a guiding mind behind it the other waves don't

And we're back to attempting to define the mechanics of a machine that is at best poorly defined and at worst a complete unknown.

This is why MacGuffins and Deus Ex Machinas have no place in a good story.

Lord of the rings, The matrix,the previous mass effect games, the fall out games, and many many other stories in diffrnet medias all say your wrong.


but even then  the machien has no bearing ont he fact that their is a firgging diffrence between organics and synthetics

Not terribly fond of the Matrix from a storyline perspective...

Yes, the Lord of the Rings had a few good examples (Ghost Men of Dunharrow or whatever and the Eagles saving Frodo at the end).

Please don't tell me your thinking of labelling the ring a MacGuffin or a Deus Ex Machina. It simply isn't. The ring is given alot of characterisation throughout the trillogy and is essentially a character in it's own right.

its a ****ing macguffen, it is THE macguffen

Call it one if you will, i don't think it is.

The briefcase in Pulp Fiction is a MacGuffin.

The ring has complex relationships with various other characters. We know what it can do and how it was made and how to destroy it. Would the plot to LOR work if you replaced the ring with the brief case in Pulp Fiction? Ofcourse not. But Pulp Fiction would arguably work if you replaced the Briefcase with another "MacGuffin".

Yes you couldl of replaced the  ring with the breifcase, the characters would still obsses over it, just becaus eits an intrestign macgguffen dosent make it less of one,  it has no thoghts or personalites, other then the fact its maicaly drawn to sauron