[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...
[/quote] no but the risk of short circiuiting appears real, and hes not in direct danger as he isnt an ai, and we know it dosent flat out kill machines, he still has enough **** in his head for him to be at risk obviously, the fact he survies shows its not a garunteed thign with him which is consistent
[/quote]
That's just it, Shepard's mind is entirely organic, but is still at risk. Biotics have synthetic components attatched to their brains yet aren't? And the quarians do not appear to be in any danger whatsoever.
It just leads me to think this hwole geth-EDI thing is an artififical tragedy.
Why do people care about EDI and the Geth so much?
Débuté par
Soggy-Snake-
, juil. 04 2012 02:56
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#127
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:31
MerchantGOL
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1. with low ems it spoorly made, as ive said before the destory affect is not it sinteded use, if it was u wouldnthave to destory it to make it work you could flip a switch like the otherVortex13 wrote...
So if the Crucible is unable to discern between the Reapers and the good synthetics, then why with a low EMS destroy does it pretty much incinerate the Earth, and destroy all of Sword Fleet (Save Hackett's ship) and blow up the Relays?
I mean if the Crucible is unable to distinguish and is only an EMP bomb like others have said then why does it completly render the two soldiers fighting the husks at the end into ash with low EMS but not in high EMS?
I mean if the game says that with enough war assests the Destroy beam can be fine tuned enough to avoid killing Sword fleet, Earth, and the Realys then whats to say that it couldn't be fine tuned to avoid killing EDI and the Geth?
#128
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:33
Kileyan
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Vortex13 wrote...
So if the Crucible is unable to discern between the Reapers and the good synthetics, then why with a low EMS destroy does it pretty much incinerate the Earth, and destroy all of Sword Fleet (Save Hackett's ship) and blow up the Relays?
I mean if the Crucible is unable to distinguish and is only an EMP bomb like others have said then why does it completly render the two soldiers fighting the husks at the end into ash with low EMS but not in high EMS?
I mean if the game says that with enough war assests the Destroy beam can be fine tuned enough to avoid killing Sword fleet, Earth, and the Realys then whats to say that it couldn't be fine tuned to avoid killing EDI and the Geth?
Because it is contrived:) Even the local Bioware guy from the Dragon Ages franchise says that he thinks that all the ending should suck, because he thinks that all ending being horrible is much better than fans having one ending out of three that is GOOD, and the obvious favorite ending, and the fans that chose that decent ending might make it "THE ENDING", and overshadow all the other bleak endings.
Apparently it is very important that all the ending be equally popular, even if all the ending are equally sucky.
#129
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:34
Iakus
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MegaSovereign wrote...
iakus wrote...
MerchantGOL wrote...
neithe rof those exmaples are cyborgs, just cause kaiden ahs an implant dosnet mean is part synthetic any more then a guy with a pace maker, further more the destory wave dosent kill all technolgy, judging by how it leaves alot of reappers bodies intact it quite clearly targets Ai's
Yet it targets Shepard, who is definitely not an AI, as both EDI and the Kronos station videos verify, Shepard's mind is completely organic.
Shepard lives...Kind of debunks your argument there.
Shepard can live, with a high EMS. Hardest ending to get, actually.
Argument rebunked
#130
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:34
daaaav
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MerchantGOL wrote...
Call it one if you will, i don't think it is.
The briefcase in Pulp Fiction is a MacGuffin.
The ring has complex relationships with various other characters. We know what it can do and how it was made and how to destroy it. Would the plot to LOR work if you replaced the ring with the brief case in Pulp Fiction? Ofcourse not. But Pulp Fiction would arguably work if you replaced the Briefcase with another "MacGuffin".
Yes you couldl of replaced the ring with the breifcase, the characters would still obsses over it, just becaus eits an intrestign macgguffen dosent make it less of one, it has no thoghts or personalites, other then the fact its maicaly drawn to sauron
The ring on numerous occasions is shown to not only have personality but intentions
i.e. it actively abandons one character for another, becomes heavier when it doesn't want to be gotten rid of, it WANTS to get back to its master etc. In essence it DRIVES the plot.
The Crucible may not be a strict macGuffin but it's pretty damn close since we know NOTHING about it until the final scene. We don't know how it works, what it will do or who made it. It could have been replaced by a giant galactic space goat without changing the narrative at all!
Modifié par daaaav, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:39 .
#131
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:34
MerchantGOL
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[quote]iakus wrote...
[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...
[/quote] no but the risk of short circiuiting appears real, and hes not in direct danger as he isnt an ai, and we know it dosent flat out kill machines, he still has enough **** in his head for him to be at risk obviously, the fact he survies shows its not a garunteed thign with him which is consistent
[/quote]
That's just it, Shepard's mind is entirely organic, but is still at risk. Biotics have synthetic components attatched to their brains yet aren't? And the quarians do not appear to be in any danger whatsoever.
It just leads me to think this hwole geth-EDI thing is an artififical tragedy.
[/quote]Wrogn their is nothing synthetic about the quarians
Maybe a few biotics did short out but it apperantly wanst a wide speread problem
The beam attacks ais, with some exceptions like the reapers that wer eright next to it but got vamprized, and the husks which were also vaporized.
the reapers on earth dint blow up how ever. they all fell because their ais were destoryed
[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...
[/quote] no but the risk of short circiuiting appears real, and hes not in direct danger as he isnt an ai, and we know it dosent flat out kill machines, he still has enough **** in his head for him to be at risk obviously, the fact he survies shows its not a garunteed thign with him which is consistent
[/quote]
That's just it, Shepard's mind is entirely organic, but is still at risk. Biotics have synthetic components attatched to their brains yet aren't? And the quarians do not appear to be in any danger whatsoever.
It just leads me to think this hwole geth-EDI thing is an artififical tragedy.
[/quote]Wrogn their is nothing synthetic about the quarians
Maybe a few biotics did short out but it apperantly wanst a wide speread problem
The beam attacks ais, with some exceptions like the reapers that wer eright next to it but got vamprized, and the husks which were also vaporized.
the reapers on earth dint blow up how ever. they all fell because their ais were destoryed
#132
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:36
elitehunter34
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Naugi wrote...
LMAO
Why do you want it to not kill the Geth and EDI then? You dont want to lose EDI and the Geth. Why?
You cant even understand your own thought process ... quite odd really.
Anyway, consider it dropped, mostly because you defy all logic and reason.
Since you keep ignoring it I'll post it again. This is my argument.
My argument is that the deaths of the Geth/EDI feel contrived because the Crucible should be able to distinguish between the Geth/EDI and the Reapers
See, you don't have to belittle me. I'm not a child that you're talking down to. I'm trying to hold a debate. My opinion of the Geth/EDI has absolutely no bearing on the merits of my argument. I don't know why you don't understand this.
Also, I'm posting this again because it helps my argument. You said, "Would they have a board meeting and say 'look guys, we really cant have this thing killing the Geth"
The fact that geth engineers were working on the project. The geth want to exist, they would've noticed this.
#133
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:37
RadicalDisconnect
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Many people care about EDI and the Geth. Just because they were the unfortunate casualties of war doesn't mean we can disregard them.
The contributions of the Geth aren't really obvious or visible, but it is clear that once they're on your side, they are very dedicated to stopping the reapers. They bear no ill will when they're no longer threatened, and I'm willing to treat them with the respect that any sentient being deserves.
Believe me, EDI's invaluable contributions, many of which are behind the scenes, make it that much more painful to kill her. The only reason the Normandy can freely wander in reaper controlled territories (until you start scanning) is that she knows how to squawk like a reaper. Her guidance of the Thanix missile battery in London was critical in terminating the destroyer guarding the beam. She was a huge part in breaching the Cerberus Cronos Station. These, and more reasons.
Most importantly, trivializing their sacrifice would be our act of proving that the Catalyst is correct, and that synthetics have no reason to believe that peace between them and organics is possible. The cycle of annihilation, or just plain annihilation, will be the result.
The contributions of the Geth aren't really obvious or visible, but it is clear that once they're on your side, they are very dedicated to stopping the reapers. They bear no ill will when they're no longer threatened, and I'm willing to treat them with the respect that any sentient being deserves.
Believe me, EDI's invaluable contributions, many of which are behind the scenes, make it that much more painful to kill her. The only reason the Normandy can freely wander in reaper controlled territories (until you start scanning) is that she knows how to squawk like a reaper. Her guidance of the Thanix missile battery in London was critical in terminating the destroyer guarding the beam. She was a huge part in breaching the Cerberus Cronos Station. These, and more reasons.
Most importantly, trivializing their sacrifice would be our act of proving that the Catalyst is correct, and that synthetics have no reason to believe that peace between them and organics is possible. The cycle of annihilation, or just plain annihilation, will be the result.
Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:40 .
#134
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:39
MerchantGOL
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[quote]daaaav wrote...
[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...
Call it one if you will, i don't think it is.
The briefcase in Pulp Fiction is a MacGuffin.
The ring has complex relationships with various other characters. We know what it can do and how it was made and how to destroy it. Would the plot to LOR work if you replaced the ring with the brief case in Pulp Fiction? Ofcourse not. But Pulp Fiction would arguably work if you replaced the Briefcase with another "MacGuffin".
[/quote]Yes you couldl of replaced the ring with the breifcase, the characters would still obsses over it, just becaus eits an intrestign macgguffen dosent make it less of one, it has no thoghts or personalites, other then the fact its maicaly drawn to sauron
[/quote]
The ring on numerous occasions is shown to not only have personality but intentions
i.e. it actively abandons one character for another, becomes heavier when it doesn't want to be gotten rid of, it WANTS to get back to its master etc. In essence it DRIVES the plot.[/quote] that dosent make it a character, ts still a macguffen, it has no lines, no character arc, it sits thei and people obesses over it
[quote]The Crucible may not be a strict macGuffin but it's pretty damn close since we know NOTHING about it until the final scene. We don't know how it works, what it will do or who made it. It could have been replaced by a giant galactic space goat without changing the narrative at all![/quote]
uhh we do know all that stuff
"Whats it do" Gathers enourmous amouths of dark energy that the catalys then focuses into an effect. what we didnt now was what the catalyst would do with it, it was a mystery which is ok, thats a fundmental part of any story.
"who made it" the previous cycles, would knowing a name make any diffrence, the fact it was made by varryign cultures passed down as a legacy of hope is intresting and makes it uniuqe nd follows one of the core themes of the serise.
[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...
Call it one if you will, i don't think it is.
The briefcase in Pulp Fiction is a MacGuffin.
The ring has complex relationships with various other characters. We know what it can do and how it was made and how to destroy it. Would the plot to LOR work if you replaced the ring with the brief case in Pulp Fiction? Ofcourse not. But Pulp Fiction would arguably work if you replaced the Briefcase with another "MacGuffin".
[/quote]Yes you couldl of replaced the ring with the breifcase, the characters would still obsses over it, just becaus eits an intrestign macgguffen dosent make it less of one, it has no thoghts or personalites, other then the fact its maicaly drawn to sauron
[/quote]
The ring on numerous occasions is shown to not only have personality but intentions
i.e. it actively abandons one character for another, becomes heavier when it doesn't want to be gotten rid of, it WANTS to get back to its master etc. In essence it DRIVES the plot.[/quote] that dosent make it a character, ts still a macguffen, it has no lines, no character arc, it sits thei and people obesses over it
[quote]The Crucible may not be a strict macGuffin but it's pretty damn close since we know NOTHING about it until the final scene. We don't know how it works, what it will do or who made it. It could have been replaced by a giant galactic space goat without changing the narrative at all![/quote]
uhh we do know all that stuff
"Whats it do" Gathers enourmous amouths of dark energy that the catalys then focuses into an effect. what we didnt now was what the catalyst would do with it, it was a mystery which is ok, thats a fundmental part of any story.
"who made it" the previous cycles, would knowing a name make any diffrence, the fact it was made by varryign cultures passed down as a legacy of hope is intresting and makes it uniuqe nd follows one of the core themes of the serise.
#135
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:46
Siansonea
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People care about EDI and the Geth because they're goddamn robots. And people LOVE robots. Personally, I liked EDI a lot more when she was a ship, once she became a sex doll for Joker, her stock with me plummeted. I like my AIs to be without cameltoe, for one thing.
I do actually like the geth, especially since they very pointedly give the lie to Catalyst's sweeping statements about organics and synthetics. The geth have NEVER been the aggressors, until Nazara corrupted them. Way to prove yourselves right, Catalyst. If synthetics will always rise up against organics because REAPERS REPROGRAM THEM TO DO THAT, well, your little paradigm holds just a bit of water, I suppose.
I do actually like the geth, especially since they very pointedly give the lie to Catalyst's sweeping statements about organics and synthetics. The geth have NEVER been the aggressors, until Nazara corrupted them. Way to prove yourselves right, Catalyst. If synthetics will always rise up against organics because REAPERS REPROGRAM THEM TO DO THAT, well, your little paradigm holds just a bit of water, I suppose.
Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:47 .
#136
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:48
elitehunter34
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MerchantGOL wrote...
simple, they are not doing the same things,they have diffrnet effects, diffrent causes, diffrnet peramiters, one is a forced malfunction, one has a guiding mind behind it, The crucible isnt picking and choosing, not even with the reapers. your argument is based soley on your belife that in syntheisis its making an active process to do some thing diffrent with each peice of orgnaic life, which their is no evidence to support.
My argument is not "
active process to do some thing diffrent with each peice of orgnaic life, which their is no evidence to support."
My argument is that the deaths of the Geth/EDI feel contrived because
Crucible so advanced that is entirely reasonable to expect that it is capable of distinguishing between the Reapers and the Geth/EDI.
Yes this is an opinion. Look I know we got sidetracked by talking about what the Crucible should and should not be able to do, that's a technical thing that really can't be answered. So theres no reason to talk about it further.
I'm curious, if the Geth/EDI survive in destroy, would you be ok with that?
Modifié par elitehunter34, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:48 .
#137
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:52
daaaav
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double post
Modifié par daaaav, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:53 .
#138
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:53
daaaav
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Look we can argue the Macguffin credentials of these objects till the cows come home...
My point is this:
We don't know enough about the crucible to validate all the assumptions yourself and Nuagl (sorry) have made about the mechanics of the crucible.
The writers intended for the crucible to be capable of Synthesis, Control of Reapers only and Destruction of all synthetics.
Because the crucible AND it's effects do not emerge organically from the narrative, the endings feel and are contrived.
Thus, the destruction of Edi and the Geth is also contrived.
My point is this:
We don't know enough about the crucible to validate all the assumptions yourself and Nuagl (sorry) have made about the mechanics of the crucible.
The writers intended for the crucible to be capable of Synthesis, Control of Reapers only and Destruction of all synthetics.
Because the crucible AND it's effects do not emerge organically from the narrative, the endings feel and are contrived.
Thus, the destruction of Edi and the Geth is also contrived.
#139
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:55
TrollDemon
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The Geth were a means to an end for me. I did feel bad for killing them because of Legion though.
EDI, I liked her before her dolled up appearance in Mass Effect 3. her dolled up appearance actually kind of killed my love for EDI a tiny bit.
EDI, I liked her before her dolled up appearance in Mass Effect 3. her dolled up appearance actually kind of killed my love for EDI a tiny bit.
#140
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:55
Aiiro
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Because I got attached to them and I won't kill them myself, nuh unh.
#141
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:57
elitehunter34
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daaaav wrote...
Look we can argue the Macguffin credentials of these objects till the cows come home...
My point is this:
We don't know enough about the crucible to validate all the assumptions yourself and Nuagl (sorry) have made about the mechanics of the crucible.
The writers intended for the crucible to be capable of Synthesis, Control of Reapers only and Destruction of all synthetics.
Because the crucible AND it's effects do not emerge organically from the narrative, the endings feel and are contrived.
Thus, the destruction of Edi and the Geth is also contrived.
Yeah, I wish I realized it earlier. I'm assuming when you said "yourself" you mean me?
#142
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:59
daaaav
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I meant MerchantGOL.
But maybe we should include all of us!
But maybe we should include all of us!
#143
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 05:59
MerchantGOL
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but they do emrge orgianicly, The reapers have always been governed by signals, they have always done what syntheisis dosem and lords know thye can destory. my point about the fored malfucntion is mare valdie then you just saying "o they synthisi beam can pick and choose"daaaav wrote...
Look we can argue the Macguffin credentials of these objects till the cows come home...
My point is this:
We don't know enough about the crucible to validate all the assumptions yourself and Nuagl (sorry) have made about the mechanics of the crucible.
The writers intended for the crucible to be capable of Synthesis, Control of Reapers only and Destruction of all synthetics.
Because the crucible AND it's effects do not emerge organically from the narrative, the endings feel and are contrived.
Thus, the destruction of Edi and the Geth is also contrived.
#144
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 06:01
CronoDragoon
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MerchantGOL wrote...
but she didnt choose shepard chose for herCronoDragoon wrote...
EDI's death I actually don't have a problem with, since most of her character arc in ME3 was centered around her coming to understand the human value system, morals, etc. The conversation about humans choosing other life goals than survival becomes especially important to consider given the Destroy ending.
She already chose. At the end of the conversation she recalibrates her main programming to accomodate the alternate goals that Shepard suggests to her.
#145
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 06:02
MerchantGOL
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no because then destory would of been a cop out, mass effect has never been about easy decisions, Vermire, the rachni, rewriting the geth, keeping the base, thes have all been tough choices with moral and actual consiqunces, it would of been a betrayel of the franchise to have two decisions with real reprecusions and have the dinkky little destory option with no draw back. aditonaly thats the only ending where shepard lives, which means you are bying his life for the price of the geth and edi, that is brilliant in my oppinionelitehunter34 wrote...
MerchantGOL wrote...
simple, they are not doing the same things,they have diffrnet effects, diffrent causes, diffrnet peramiters, one is a forced malfunction, one has a guiding mind behind it, The crucible isnt picking and choosing, not even with the reapers. your argument is based soley on your belife that in syntheisis its making an active process to do some thing diffrent with each peice of orgnaic life, which their is no evidence to support.
My argument is not "
active process to do some thing diffrent with each peice of orgnaic life, which their is no evidence to support."
My argument is that the deaths of the Geth/EDI feel contrived because
Crucible so advanced that is entirely reasonable to expect that it is capable of distinguishing between the Reapers and the Geth/EDI.
Yes this is an opinion. Look I know we got sidetracked by talking about what the Crucible should and should not be able to do, that's a technical thing that really can't be answered. So theres no reason to talk about it further.
I'm curious, if the Geth/EDI survive in destroy, would you be ok with that?
Modifié par MerchantGOL, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:02 .
#146
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 06:03
MerchantGOL
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thats not choosing and you know itCronoDragoon wrote...
MerchantGOL wrote...
but she didnt choose shepard chose for herCronoDragoon wrote...
EDI's death I actually don't have a problem with, since most of her character arc in ME3 was centered around her coming to understand the human value system, morals, etc. The conversation about humans choosing other life goals than survival becomes especially important to consider given the Destroy ending.
She already chose. At the end of the conversation she recalibrates her main programming to accomodate the alternate goals that Shepard suggests to her.
#147
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 06:05
Walshrus
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D24O wrote...
Well it needs a cost, true. It just seems silly that a machine that can target DNA can't tell between reaper code and non-reaper code. But with how contrived the sequence feels as a whole, plus the fact I don;t choose it, I don't care all that much.
While I do wish the Geth and EDI could be spared, it does actually make sense, both the Geth and EDI have reaper code in them. The Geth upload the reaper code to become sentient. So by gaining their individuality they pretty much doomed themselves. If the crucible sends out a pulse that destroys reaper code, unfortunately the Geth and EDI fall in that category.
#148
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 06:05
daaaav
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I haven't attributed any characteristics to the Crucible beyond what it did and what the codex tells me.
The Reapers are governed by signals, the Geth are also governed by signals. i don't see your point here.
The Reapers are governed by signals, the Geth are also governed by signals. i don't see your point here.
#149
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 06:07
MerchantGOL
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i didnt even think of that.Walshrus wrote...
D24O wrote...
Well it needs a cost, true. It just seems silly that a machine that can target DNA can't tell between reaper code and non-reaper code. But with how contrived the sequence feels as a whole, plus the fact I don;t choose it, I don't care all that much.
While I do wish the Geth and EDI could be spared, it does actually make sense, both the Geth and EDI have reaper code in them. The Geth upload the reaper code to become sentient. So by gaining their individuality they pretty much doomed themselves. If the crucible sends out a pulse that destroys reaper code, unfortunately the Geth and EDI fall in that category.
#150
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 06:07
CronoDragoon
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Walshrus wrote...
D24O wrote...
Well it needs a cost, true. It just seems silly that a machine that can target DNA can't tell between reaper code and non-reaper code. But with how contrived the sequence feels as a whole, plus the fact I don;t choose it, I don't care all that much.
While I do wish the Geth and EDI could be spared, it does actually make sense, both the Geth and EDI have reaper code in them. The Geth upload the reaper code to become sentient. So by gaining their individuality they pretty much doomed themselves. If the crucible sends out a pulse that destroys reaper code, unfortunately the Geth and EDI fall in that category.
If this was how the Crucible worked, Shepard would control anything with Reaper code in Control, as well. Unless we are saying that Destroy targets Reaper code while Control can target Reapers proper, in which case I'll again curse arbitrary consequences with my fist in the air.
