287 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

MerchantGOL wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

EDI's death I actually don't have a problem with, since most of her character arc in ME3 was centered around her coming to understand the human value system, morals, etc. The conversation about humans choosing other life goals than survival becomes especially important to consider given the Destroy ending.

but she didnt  choose shepard chose for her

She already chose. At the end of the conversation she recalibrates her main programming to accomodate the alternate goals that Shepard suggests to her. 

thats not choosing and you know it

She chose the moment she decided to become a soldier in the war, which was at the end of the conversation. Shepard even says, "Welcome to the crew," or something. The war doesn't get time-outs so people can reaffirm that yes, they are indeed willing to die to stop the Reapers.

[MerchantGOL]

daaaav wrote...

I haven't attributed any characteristics to the Crucible beyond what it did and what the codex tells me.

The Reapers are governed by signals, the Geth are also governed by signals. i don't see your point here.

The reapers signal explains control and  Synthesis easy

[MerchantGOL]

CronoDragoon wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

EDI's death I actually don't have a problem with, since most of her character arc in ME3 was centered around her coming to understand the human value system, morals, etc. The conversation about humans choosing other life goals than survival becomes especially important to consider given the Destroy ending.

but she didnt  choose shepard chose for her

She already chose. At the end of the conversation she recalibrates her main programming to accomodate the alternate goals that Shepard suggests to her. 

thats not choosing and you know it

She chose the moment she decided to become a soldier in the war, which was at the end of the conversation. Shepard even says, "Welcome to the crew," or something. The war doesn't get time-outs so people can reaffirm that yes, they are indeed willing to die to stop the Reapers.

She didnt choose for her and her kind to get sacraficed, youll never know if shell agree to that, its jsut as likley  she would of begged for her life.

[Vortex13]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

So if the Crucible is unable to discern between the Reapers and the good synthetics, then why with a low EMS destroy does it pretty much incinerate the Earth, and destroy all of Sword Fleet (Save Hackett's ship) and blow up the Relays?

I mean if the Crucible is unable to distinguish and is only an EMP bomb like others have said then why does it completly render the two soldiers fighting the husks at the end into ash with low EMS but not in high EMS?

I mean if the game says that with enough war assests the Destroy beam can be fine tuned enough to avoid killing Sword fleet, Earth, and the Realys then whats to say that it couldn't be fine tuned to avoid killing EDI and the Geth?

1. with low ems it spoorly made, as ive said before the destory affect is not it sinteded use, if it was u wouldnthave to destory it  to  make it work you could flip a switch like the other

How can the Crucible be poorly made if (like others have said) no one understands how it works? Having enough war assets and EMS allows the device that nobody understands how it works, and being used in an uninteded way to NOT fry the Earth, Sword Fleet and the Relays.

I am not trying to continue debating the semantics of how the Crucible functions, I am mearly saying that if the game shows the Destroy beam not killing everbody on or around Earth in a high EMS ending then why couldn't the inclusion of more war assets (Leviathan DLC maybe) let the beam bypass EDI and the Geth?

We can sit and debate the inner works of the Cruible all we want, but it still doesn't change the fact that with higher EMS/War Assets the Crucible is more 'fine tuned'. EDI and the Geth having to die no matter what you do in Destroy is merely tacted on, in Mass Effect 2 if you did everything right (all Normandy upgrades, loyalty missions) then nobody died on the suicide mission. Let the Destroy ending stand on it's own merits (see my previous posts) instead of resorting to holding EDI and the Geth hostage.

[MerchantGOL]

Vortex13 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

So if the Crucible is unable to discern between the Reapers and the good synthetics, then why with a low EMS destroy does it pretty much incinerate the Earth, and destroy all of Sword Fleet (Save Hackett's ship) and blow up the Relays?

I mean if the Crucible is unable to distinguish and is only an EMP bomb like others have said then why does it completly render the two soldiers fighting the husks at the end into ash with low EMS but not in high EMS?

I mean if the game says that with enough war assests the Destroy beam can be fine tuned enough to avoid killing Sword fleet, Earth, and the Realys then whats to say that it couldn't be fine tuned to avoid killing EDI and the Geth?

1. with low ems it spoorly made, as ive said before the destory affect is not it sinteded use, if it was u wouldnthave to destory it  to  make it work you could flip a switch like the other

How can the Crucible be poorly made if (like others have said) no one understands how it works?

any one who says that is ether lying, or is missinformed, we do know what the crucible dose, we didnt know what the catalyst did

[daaaav]

MerchantGOL wrote...

daaaav wrote...

I haven't attributed any characteristics to the Crucible beyond what it did and what the codex tells me.

The Reapers are governed by signals, the Geth are also governed by signals. i don't see your point here.

The reapers signal explains control and  Synthesis easy

We are not given ANY information whatsoever about how synthesis or control works!

I'll repeat the important point

All we know is that:

• The crucible can perform synthesis and it appears to be different from 'huskification'
• The crucible can Control the Reapers ONLY
• The crucible can Destroy Synthetics ONLY

So based on what we KNOW, the crucible can at some level distinguish between synthetics and organics and between Reapers and Geth.

We don't know how this happens, only that it does.

This is EXACTLY what the writers intended.

[sugarpouring]

so if humanity had to be sacrificed to save the galaxy, would you still do it?

[MerchantGOL]

daaaav wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

daaaav wrote...

I haven't attributed any characteristics to the Crucible beyond what it did and what the codex tells me.

The Reapers are governed by signals, the Geth are also governed by signals. i don't see your point here.

The reapers signal explains control and  Synthesis easy

We are not given ANY information whatsoever about how synthesis or control works!

I'll repeat the important point

All we know is that:

• The crucible can perform synthesis and it appears to be different from 'huskification'
• The crucible can Control the Reapers ONLY
• The crucible can Destroy Synthetics ONLY

So based on what we KNOW, the crucible can at some level distinguish between synthetics and organics and between Reapers and Geth.

We don't know how this happens, only that it does.

This is EXACTLY what the writers intended.

one  none of those effects are the same thing two nothing about that says it distingushes organics, three Synthessis seems to be the clean version of huskification

[RadicalDisconnect]

sugarpouring wrote...

so if humanity had to be sacrificed to save the galaxy, would you still do it?

Yes. That may be even more contrived, but yes.

[Vortex13]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

So if the Crucible is unable to discern between the Reapers and the good synthetics, then why with a low EMS destroy does it pretty much incinerate the Earth, and destroy all of Sword Fleet (Save Hackett's ship) and blow up the Relays?

I mean if the Crucible is unable to distinguish and is only an EMP bomb like others have said then why does it completly render the two soldiers fighting the husks at the end into ash with low EMS but not in high EMS?

I mean if the game says that with enough war assests the Destroy beam can be fine tuned enough to avoid killing Sword fleet, Earth, and the Realys then whats to say that it couldn't be fine tuned to avoid killing EDI and the Geth?

1. with low ems it spoorly made, as ive said before the destory affect is not it sinteded use, if it was u wouldnthave to destory it  to  make it work you could flip a switch like the other

How can the Crucible be poorly made if (like others have said) no one understands how it works?

any one who says that is ether lying, or is missinformed, we do know what the crucible dose, we didnt know what the catalyst did

So if the Catalyst is the reason that Destroy always kills EDI and the Geth, then the Destroy beam is capable of distinguishing, its just that the Catalyst (Star Child) is intent on taking Shep's friends with it should s/he pick destroy.

[MerchantGOL]

Vortex13 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

So if the Crucible is unable to discern between the Reapers and the good synthetics, then why with a low EMS destroy does it pretty much incinerate the Earth, and destroy all of Sword Fleet (Save Hackett's ship) and blow up the Relays?

I mean if the Crucible is unable to distinguish and is only an EMP bomb like others have said then why does it completly render the two soldiers fighting the husks at the end into ash with low EMS but not in high EMS?

I mean if the game says that with enough war assests the Destroy beam can be fine tuned enough to avoid killing Sword fleet, Earth, and the Realys then whats to say that it couldn't be fine tuned to avoid killing EDI and the Geth?

1. with low ems it spoorly made, as ive said before the destory affect is not it sinteded use, if it was u wouldnthave to destory it  to  make it work you could flip a switch like the other

How can the Crucible be poorly made if (like others have said) no one understands how it works?

any one who says that is ether lying, or is missinformed, we do know what the crucible dose, we didnt know what the catalyst did

So if the Catalyst is the reason that Destroy always kills EDI and the Geth, then the Destroy beam is capable of distinguishing, its just that the Catalyst (Star Child) is intent on taking Shep's friends with it should s/he pick destroy.

if thats what you want as your headconnon go ahead

[daaaav]

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...




We are not given ANY information whatsoever about how synthesis or control works!

I'll repeat the important point

All we know is that:

• The crucible can perform synthesis and it appears to be different from 'huskification'
• The crucible can Control the Reapers ONLY
• The crucible can Destroy Synthetics ONLY

So based on what we KNOW, the crucible can at some level distinguish between synthetics and organics and between Reapers and Geth.

We don't know how this happens, only that it does.

This is EXACTLY what the writers intended.

[/quote] one  none of those effects are the same thing two nothing about that says it distingushes organics, three Synthessis seems to be the clean version of huskification
[/quote]

Your right about the organics one.

But the Control beam CAN distinguish between Reapers and Geth who HAVE reaper code.

Now that we know this, there is NO good narrative reason for the destroy beam to not have this capability.

The writers simply intended it this way. It is a contrivance.

[CronoDragoon]

MerchantGOL wrote...
She didnt choose for her and her kind to get sacraficed, youll never know if shell agree to that, its jsut as likley  she would of begged for her life.

It's just as likely she'd beg for her life after she deprioritizes survival in favor of duty, honor, sacrifice, and love? I mean, I'd like a scene before Destroy where Shep calls up EDI to let her know as well, but come on.

[MerchantGOL]

CronoDragoon wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
She didnt choose for her and her kind to get sacraficed, youll never know if shell agree to that, its jsut as likley  she would of begged for her life.

It's just as likely she'd beg for her life after she deprioritizes survival in favor of duty, honor, sacrifice, and love? I mean, I'd like a scene before Destroy where Shep calls up EDI to let her know as well, but come on.

theirs a difrence betwween jsut edi, and every one like her, if shes not fighting  for he rlife shes fighting for her right to exist which u disregard in destory

[elitehunter34]

MerchantGOL wrote...

no because then destory would of been a cop out, mass effect has never been about easy decisions, Vermire, the rachni,  rewriting the geth, keeping the base, thes  have all been tough choices with  moral and  actual consiqunces, it would of been a betrayel of the franchise to have two  decisions with  real reprecusions and have the dinkky little destory option with no draw back.  aditonaly thats the only ending where shepard lives, which means you are bying his life for the price of the geth and edi, that is brilliant in my oppinion

Mass Effect has also had times where you could have superior third options.  If you make the right choices, rather than having to pick between the Geth and the Quarians, you can ensure peace.  If you do everything right, you can make everyone live in the suicide mission in Mass Effect 2.  If you're Paragon or Renegade score is high enough, you can save Wrex on Virmire.

So, the whole reason why you can't accept the Geth/EDI living is because it takes away from the other endings?  How does the Geth/EDI living take anything away from the other endings?  If you like Control and Synthesis fine, then pick them, but don't force destroy to have consequences it doesn't need to have.  But you say, "No it does because x or y or z."  Stop it.  The writers can do whatever they damn well please.  Theres no reason destroy has to destroy the Geth.  

The bottom line is, it feels contrived.  I can't think of a single time in the entire Mass Effect series where the consequences of a choice felt even a little contrived.  You might not agree that the ending feels contrived, but we think it does.  If we got our wish, you could still get your other endings.

Why do you need anymore sacrifice?  Billions have already died.  Countless billions.  Is that enough sacrifice for you?  Is the deaths of billions really not enough to appease you?

[MerchantGOL]

[quote]daaaav wrote...

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...




We are not given ANY information whatsoever about how synthesis or control works!

I'll repeat the important point

All we know is that:

• The crucible can perform synthesis and it appears to be different from 'huskification'
• The crucible can Control the Reapers ONLY
• The crucible can Destroy Synthetics ONLY

So based on what we KNOW, the crucible can at some level distinguish between synthetics and organics and between Reapers and Geth.

We don't know how this happens, only that it does.

This is EXACTLY what the writers intended.

[/quote] one  none of those effects are the same thing two nothing about that says it distingushes organics, three Synthessis seems to be the clean version of huskification
[/quote]

Your right about the organics one.

But the Control beam CAN distinguish between Reapers and Geth who HAVE reaper code.

Now that we know this, there is NO good narrative reason for the destroy beam to not have this capability.



[/quote] except the fact they are completley diffrent things.

[elitehunter34]

daaaav wrote...

Your right about the organics one.

But the Control beam CAN distinguish between Reapers and Geth who HAVE reaper code.

Now that we know this, there is NO good narrative reason for the destroy beam to not have this capability.

The writers simply intended it this way. It is a contrivance.

Exactly.

[CronoDragoon]

MerchantGOL wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
She didnt choose for her and her kind to get sacraficed, youll never know if shell agree to that, its jsut as likley  she would of begged for her life.

It's just as likely she'd beg for her life after she deprioritizes survival in favor of duty, honor, sacrifice, and love? I mean, I'd like a scene before Destroy where Shep calls up EDI to let her know as well, but come on.

theirs a difrence betwween jsut edi, and every one like her, if shes not fighting  for he rlife shes fighting for her right to exist which u disregard in destory

I don't see how killing her in Destroy disregards her right to exist. You aren't saying that she doesn't deserve to live when you Destroy, unless that is your headcanon for a Renegade Shepard that hates robots.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:41 .

[daaaav]

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...

[quote]daaaav wrote...

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...




We are not given ANY information whatsoever about how synthesis or control works!

I'll repeat the important point

All we know is that:

• The crucible can perform synthesis and it appears to be different from 'huskification'
• The crucible can Control the Reapers ONLY
• The crucible can Destroy Synthetics ONLY

So based on what we KNOW, the crucible can at some level distinguish between synthetics and organics and between Reapers and Geth.

We don't know how this happens, only that it does.

This is EXACTLY what the writers intended.

[/quote] one  none of those effects are the same thing two nothing about that says it distingushes organics, three Synthessis seems to be the clean version of huskification
[/quote]

Your right about the organics one.

But the Control beam CAN distinguish between Reapers and Geth who HAVE reaper code.

Now that we know this, there is NO good narrative reason for the destroy beam to not have this capability.


[/quote] except the fact they are completley diffrent things.
[/quote]

Yes, the difference between us is that I feel that that 'fact' should be generated from the narrative and that you are happy headcannoning it.

Good argument

Got to work

[MerchantGOL]

elitehunter34 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

no because then destory would of been a cop out, mass effect has never been about easy decisions, Vermire, the rachni,  rewriting the geth, keeping the base, thes  have all been tough choices with  moral and  actual consiqunces, it would of been a betrayel of the franchise to have two  decisions with  real reprecusions and have the dinkky little destory option with no draw back.  aditonaly thats the only ending where shepard lives, which means you are bying his life for the price of the geth and edi, that is brilliant in my oppinion

Mass Effect has also had times where you could have superior third options.  If you make the right choices, rather than having to pick between the Geth and the Quarians, you can ensure peace.  If you do everything right, you can make everyone live in the suicide mission in Mass Effect 2.  If you're Paragon or Renegade score is high enough, you can save Wrex on Virmire.

  with the exception of the geth and quarians none of those choices were as big as this, theirs no third option to whenter the coucil dies, theirs no magic happy alternative the  the rachni, or the prothean base, so your argument is bull ****, this si the last decision fot he game, the bigges descison of the franchise, to give you amagic way out would of been weak and a betrayal, and its not worth it jsut because you cant handel not getting your fanfic ending

"So, the whole reason why you can't accept the Geth/EDI living is because it takes away from the other endings?" no because it would take away fromt he destory ending and make it shallow and weak and would make allt he other choices were u couldnt cheat less in comparison

"If you like Control and Synthesis fine, then pick them, but don't force destroy to have consequences it doesn't need to have. " it did need to have them or it wouldnt of been worthy of the francise

" But you say, "No it does because x or y or z."  Stop it.  The writers can do whatever they damn well please.  Theres no reason destroy has to destroy the Geth.  " no because their are obvious reason in game for why it happend the way it did

"The bottom line is, it feels contrived.  I can't think of a single time in the entire Mass Effect series where the consequences of a choice felt even a little contrived. " not having the option of letting the coucil decide the rachnis fate isn't contrived? not telling the illusiv eman to shove it in me2 isnt contrived? not being able to save ash and akden despite having more then enough men available isnt contrived?

"Why do you need anymore sacrifice?  Billions have already died.  Countless billions.  Is that enough sacrifice for you?  Is the deaths of billions really not enough to appease you?" because thats what the game  and the franchose is about sacrafice you cant have 2 othe rendings wiht sacrafice then have one with out then your entire message and every other choice is meaningless. for the story integrity the ending had to be equal, you pay for the lfie of your shepard  with the life of your freinds [at least 1 even if you **** over the geth] its a choice worhty of this franchise.

[MerchantGOL]

[quote]daaaav wrote...

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...

[quote]daaaav wrote...

[quote]MerchantGOL wrote...




We are not given ANY information whatsoever about how synthesis or control works!

I'll repeat the important point

All we know is that:

• The crucible can perform synthesis and it appears to be different from 'huskification'
• The crucible can Control the Reapers ONLY
• The crucible can Destroy Synthetics ONLY

So based on what we KNOW, the crucible can at some level distinguish between synthetics and organics and between Reapers and Geth.

We don't know how this happens, only that it does.

This is EXACTLY what the writers intended.

[/quote] one  none of those effects are the same thing two nothing about that says it distingushes organics, three Synthessis seems to be the clean version of huskification
[/quote]

Your right about the organics one.

But the Control beam CAN distinguish between Reapers and Geth who HAVE reaper code.

Now that we know this, there is NO good narrative reason for the destroy beam to not have this capability.


[/quote] except the fact they are completley diffrent things.
[/quote]

Yes, the difference between us is that I feel that that 'fact' should be generated from the narrative and that you are happy headcannoning it.

Good argument

Got to work

[/quote] i am not headconnoing any thing your the oen with assumptions

[MerchantGOL]

CronoDragoon wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
She didnt choose for her and her kind to get sacraficed, youll never know if shell agree to that, its jsut as likley  she would of begged for her life.

It's just as likely she'd beg for her life after she deprioritizes survival in favor of duty, honor, sacrifice, and love? I mean, I'd like a scene before Destroy where Shep calls up EDI to let her know as well, but come on.

theirs a difrence betwween jsut edi, and every one like her, if shes not fighting  for he rlife shes fighting for her right to exist which u disregard in destory

I don't see how killing her in Destroy disregards her right to exist. You aren't saying that she doesn't deserve to live when you Destroy, unless that is your headcanon for a Renegade Shepard that hates robots.

you are scraficing her for an easy solution.

[XXIceColdXX]

Good thread. EDI and the Geth are a small sacrifice compared to others who have already given their life for the war.

The Virmire sacrifice, Mordin and Thane all died as heroes for the end goal of defeating the reapers.

Machines or AI's dont even come close to that level of sacrifice thats already been made those guys. Sure EDI wont be back but the Geth can always be rebuilt.

Agree with the OP, sacrificing EDI and the Geth are a small price to pay to destroy the Reapers once and for all.

[MerchantGOL]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Good thread. EDI and the Geth are a small sacrifice compared to others who have already given their life for the war.

The Virmire sacrifice, Mordin and Thane all died as heroes for the end goal of defeating the reapers.

Machines or AI's dont even come close to that level of sacrifice thats already been made those guys. Sure EDI wont be back but the Geth can always be rebuilt.

Agree with the OP, sacrificing EDI and the Geth are a small price to pay to destroy the Reapers once and for all.

Except that thegeth at that point are indivudals, you cant Rebuild a soul. 

[CronoDragoon]

MerchantGOL wrote...

 you are scraficing her for an easy solution.

How is it easy? I pick it because destroying the Reapers is the right thing to do, and because I do not believe that synthetics will wipe out organics.