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[KotorEffect3]

Every time a thread about refusal pops up I will just leave this here.

"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer"

I can respect people who choose synthesis, control, or destroy.  Those choices may vary a great deal but they all have one thing in common.  They end the war and save the galaxy.  . At least they are willing to do what needs to be done in order to save trillions.

Refusal is for the stubborn and stupid.  They would sacrifice the lives of trillions for their own vanity in order satisfy a self righteous whim that they have.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:21 .

[wantedman dan]

N7Gold wrote...

What you call "poor writing", I call the inability to acknowledge your faults. If you're really fighting for freedom, how far would you go to attain freedom? Will you let your anxieties stop you or will you keep fighting on?

Forfeitting even the potential of freedom for others to gain freedom myself is, by its very own nature, is antithetical to the concept of freedom.

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Every time a thread about refusal pops up I will just leave this here.

"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer"

Another poorly written bit.

[OblivionDawn]

Sweawm wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

It's not cowardice.

It takes a substantial amount of balls to build a superweapon/battery deliver it to the Reapers' doorstep, and then decide that you're not going to use it.

Stupid? Very. But not cowardly.

The point in my topic is its cowardice to back down when you're so close to victory, even if you don't exactly approve of your choice of outcomes.

Your not close to victory, your close  to the Reaper's victory. 
Each ending offered by the Catalyst could have massive implications:

Control - Not strong enough to maintain control, go power crazy, see the logic within the cycle... various bad things
Sythesis - Done to death. All I see is Reaper overlords, Catalyst still in control
Destroy - Chaos destined to come back. Organic/Sythnetic War resumes 

The Catalyst only offers because it advances the Reaper's agenda, even the Destroy Ending. Refusal is about ideals and freedom. 
Before, the Reapers have always maintained control and completed their objectives. For possibly the first time ever, the Reapers have failed. 

You misunderstand the "Reaper agenda" if you think that's the truth.

The Catalyst was made to prevent conflict between synthetics and organics. The Reapers don't want to rule you, they don't want to brainwash you (unless they indoctrinate you to use you for their main purpose), they just want to harvest you because that's what they were made for.

Control removes the flawed reasoning that led to the Reapers' creation. Shepard saw the flaws in Starkid's logic, his new incarnation, having all his thoughts and memories, will too.

Synthesis erases the line between synthetic and organic, completely removing the reason that the Reapers AND the Catalyst were built.

Destroy eliminates the Reapers, while leaving the outcome of the organic/synthetic confilct to fate.

No furthering of Reaper agendas involved.

In fact, Refusal does a pretty good job of helping the Reapers fufill their objective.

Modifié par OblivionDawn, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:18 .

[Ticonderoga117]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Every time a thread about refusal pops up I will just leave this here.

"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer"

"A man chooses, a slave obeys."

"I'm going to win this war, and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species."

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:21 .

[estebanus]

Control makes you a huge hypocrite.

Synthesis makes you the killer of the most beautiful thing in the galaxy.

Destroy makes you a mass murderer.

In refusal, you decide that if you were to win a war, then you should win it on your own terms, or at least give the coming generations a fighting chance.

That is exactly what refusal lets you do.

The galaxy as we know it dies, yes. But not without a struggle. The war will last centuries. The reapers, completely taken by surprise by a galaxy standing together as one in the eyes of death, lose many ships. More than ever before. They cannot adapt to the divers tactics of the different races, something that they never experienced before, and as such, they are put at a disadvantage.

Eventually, the reapers win, but it will be a hollow victory for them. Their losses were immense, and Shepard, the hero of the galaxy, provided an icon that everyone aspired to. But Shepard was not the one who will ultimately beat the reapers; it will be Liara.

Liara, the frightened little girl that first met Shepard at Therum, who managed to get Shepard to comprehend the cipher, and who saved Shepard from being captured by the collectors, will ultimately be the reapers' downfall.

Now that the current cycle has lost all hope of achieving victory, They use all their resources to help Liara's project of hiding these small data caches filled with information throughout countless garden planets. This will help warn the future cycles millennia before the reapers arrive and will give them a chance to fully finish the crucible so that it will not destroy all synthetics, but only the reapers. All this will be achieved thanks to one blue-eyed woman who had the intelligence to foresee what she could do to save the galaxy. These data caches will not be failures as those of the protheans, because these will not be filled with incomprehensible rambling. These will be fully made troves of knowledge that will eventually save the future cycle. And the next time the reapers arrive, they won't know what hit 'em.

So no, reject is not the coward's choice, it is the smart choice. And it sure as hell leaves the galaxy in a much better state than what would happen if Shepard had chosen to end the reaper threat when s/he had the chance.

[KotorEffect3]

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Every time a thread about refusal pops up I will just leave this here.

"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer"

Another poorly written bit.

That aint bad writing at all.  It is javik making perfect damn sense.

[WarGriffin]

wantedman dan wrote...

WarGriffin wrote...

Pfff nobody remembers ME1, Me3's team clearly doesn't

I shudder out of disgust.

I don't even think they remember ME2 I mean they have a summary of what happened but they completely ****ed up on the important details.

Hell What happened to that Dark energy plot?

Why is Jacob... The Man of principle, the cheater and dropped your ass the moment he saw a woman he liked? while Jack-who openly admits she'll bed anything willing to go- will stoicly wait for you if romanced?


Heck they didn't read Retribution sense they ****ed up Kai Leng's character soo bad all so Thier Wunderkind God King Hero Shepard can squash the puny resistence of his opponents -okay to be fair BW has always sucked at giving thier heroes rivals worth anythng-... only to be saved by StarSatan in the end1

[Mr.House]

estebanus wrote...

Control makes you a huge hypocrite.

Synthesis makes you the killer of the most beautiful thing in the galaxy.

Destroy makes you a mass murderer.

In refusal, you decide that if you were to win a war, then you should win it on your own terms, or at least give the coming generations a fighting chance.

That is exactly what refusal lets you do.

The galaxy as we know it dies, yes. But not without a struggle. The war will last centuries. The reapers, completely taken by surprise by a galaxy standing together as one in the eyes of death, lose many ships. More than ever before. They cannot adapt to the divers tactics of the different races, something that they never experienced before, and as such, they are put at a disadvantage.

Eventually, the reapers win, but it will be a hollow victory for them. Their losses were immense, and Shepard, the hero of the galaxy, provided an icon that everyone aspired to. But Shepard was not the one who will ultimately beat the reapers; it will be Liara.

Liara, the frightened little girl that first met Shepard at Therum, who managed to get Shepard to comprehend the cipher, and who saved Shepard from being captured by the collectors, will ultimately be the reapers' downfall.

Now that the current cycle has lost all hope of achieving victory, They use all their resources to help Liara's project of hiding these small data caches filled with information throughout countless garden planets. This will help warn the future cycles millennia before the reapers arrive and will give them a chance to fully finish the crucible so that it will not destroy all synthetics, but only the reapers. All this will be achieved thanks to one blue-eyed woman who had the intelligence to foresee what she could do to save the galaxy. These data caches will not be failures as those of the protheans, because these will not be filled with incomprehensible rambling. These will be fully made troves of knowledge that will eventually save the future cycle. And the next time the reapers arrive, they won't know what hit 'em.

So no, reject is not the coward's choice, it is the smart choice. And it sure as hell leaves the galaxy in a much better state than what would happen if Shepard had chosen to end the reaper threat when s/he had the chance.

Except the next cycle uses the cruible.

[KotorEffect3]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Every time a thread about refusal pops up I will just leave this here.

"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer"

"A man chooses, a slave obeys."

"I'm going to win this war, and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species."

And so you lost the war and sacrificed every species to the reapers.   I would say hope you can look yourself in the mirror but  you are reaper goo at this point.

[N7Gold]

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

What you call "poor writing", I call the inability to acknowledge your faults. If you're really fighting for freedom, how far would you go to attain freedom? Will you let your anxieties stop you or will you keep fighting on?

Forfeitting even the potential of freedom for others to gain freedom myself is, by its very own nature, is antithetical to the concept of freedom.

True, turning down the potential for freedom in the pursuit of freedom is contradicting. You didn't answer my question by the way. If you really desire freedom, how far would you go to get it, because it's not always an easy road to travel.

Modifié par N7Gold, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:25 .

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

That aint bad writing at all.  It is javik making perfect damn sense.

It's poor writing.

If you can't fight a battle with your honor intact, how are you any better than the enemy you're fighting?

The obvious answer is, you aren't.

[wantedman dan]

N7Gold wrote...

True, turning down the potential for freedom in the pursuit of freedom is contradicting

Thus making Destroy not only genocidal, but hypocritical.

Thus my reticence and enjoyment of picking refusal.

How far would I go? Reword my post to, "I would not forfeit the freedom of others just to secure my own."

Modifié par wantedman dan, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:26 .

[estebanus]

Mr.House wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Control makes you a huge hypocrite.

Synthesis makes you the killer of the most beautiful thing in the galaxy.

Destroy makes you a mass murderer.

In refusal, you decide that if you were to win a war, then you should win it on your own terms, or at least give the coming generations a fighting chance.

That is exactly what refusal lets you do.

The galaxy as we know it dies, yes. But not without a struggle. The war will last centuries. The reapers, completely taken by surprise by a galaxy standing together as one in the eyes of death, lose many ships. More than ever before. They cannot adapt to the divers tactics of the different races, something that they never experienced before, and as such, they are put at a disadvantage.

Eventually, the reapers win, but it will be a hollow victory for them. Their losses were immense, and Shepard, the hero of the galaxy, provided an icon that everyone aspired to. But Shepard was not the one who will ultimately beat the reapers; it will be Liara.

Liara, the frightened little girl that first met Shepard at Therum, who managed to get Shepard to comprehend the cipher, and who saved Shepard from being captured by the collectors, will ultimately be the reapers' downfall.

Now that the current cycle has lost all hope of achieving victory, They use all their resources to help Liara's project of hiding these small data caches filled with information throughout countless garden planets. This will help warn the future cycles millennia before the reapers arrive and will give them a chance to fully finish the crucible so that it will not destroy all synthetics, but only the reapers. All this will be achieved thanks to one blue-eyed woman who had the intelligence to foresee what she could do to save the galaxy. These data caches will not be failures as those of the protheans, because these will not be filled with incomprehensible rambling. These will be fully made troves of knowledge that will eventually save the future cycle. And the next time the reapers arrive, they won't know what hit 'em.

So no, reject is not the coward's choice, it is the smart choice. And it sure as hell leaves the galaxy in a much better state than what would happen if Shepard had chosen to end the reaper threat when s/he had the chance.

Except the next cycle uses the cruible.

 

Yes, they use the crucible, but this time they will manage to destroy the reapers with it, not all synthetic life, since they are now able to fully finish it. 

Keep in mind that the current cycles' crucible wasn't fully finished. The ctalyst itself says this.

[KotorEffect3]

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

That aint bad writing at all.  It is javik making perfect damn sense.

It's poor writing.

If you can't fight a battle with your honor intact, how are you any better than the enemy you're fighting?

The obvious answer is, you aren't.

It isn't about being "better" than your enemy.  It is about surviving.  It is about doing what must be done in order to win a future for the unborn daughters and sons out there.  It is about a future for Earth, Palevan, Tuchanka, Thessia, Sur Kesh, Rannoch, etc...  It is about making sure all the sacrifices that have been made along the way aren't in vain.  You talk of honor but if you are willing to throw everyone else to the reapers in order to satisfy your "honor", you have no honor in the first place.  All you have is self righteous vanity.

[N7Gold]

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

That aint bad writing at all.  It is javik making perfect damn sense.

It's poor writing.

If you can't fight a battle with your honor intact, how are you any better than the enemy you're fighting?

The obvious answer is, you aren't.

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

[Ticonderoga117]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
And so you lost the war and sacrificed every species to the reapers.   I would say hope you can look yourself in the mirror but  you are reaper goo at this point.

Only because of bad writing forcing an uneeded moral dilemma for a "high brow" ending.

[Mr.House]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

That aint bad writing at all.  It is javik making perfect damn sense.

It's poor writing.

If you can't fight a battle with your honor intact, how are you any better than the enemy you're fighting?

The obvious answer is, you aren't.

It isn't about being "better" than your enemy.  It is about surviving.  It is about doing what must be done in order to win a future for the unborn daughters and sons out there.  It is about a future for Earth, Palevan, Tuchanka, Thessia, Sur Kesh, Rannoch, etc...  It is about making sure all the sacrifices that have been made along the way aren't in vain.  You talk of honor but if you are willing to throw everyone else to the reapers in order to satisfy your "honor", you have no honor in the first place.  All you have is self righteous vanity.

I'll just leave this here.

Modifié par Mr.House, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:31 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

It isn't about being "better" than your enemy.  It is about surviving.  It is about doing what must be done in order to win a future for the unborn daughters and sons out there.  It is about a future for Earth, Palevan, Tuchanka, Thessia, Sur Kesh, Rannoch, etc...  It is about making sure all the sacrifices that have been made along the way aren't in vain.  You talk of honor but if you are willing to throw everyone else to the reapers in order to satisfy your "honor", you have no honor in the first place.  All you have is self righteous vanity.

I find life for the sake of life hollow and meaningless personally, it's not a question of pride. Everyone dies at some point, I prefer to have some choice in how I do so.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

It isn't about being "better" than your enemy.  It is about surviving.  It is about doing what must be done in order to win a future for the unborn daughters and sons out there.  It is about a future for Earth, Palevan, Tuchanka, Thessia, Sur Kesh, Rannoch, etc...  It is about making sure all the sacrifices that have been made along the way aren't in vain.  You talk of honor but if you are willing to throw everyone else to the reapers in order to satisfy your "honor", you have no honor in the first place.  All you have is self righteous vanity.

And the ad hominem comes forth yet again. Surprising, really.

The point being, that you missed rather blatantly, if you cannot conduct yourself in a manner that is better than that which you are in conflict with, you have no business conflicting with it.

If the United States were to go around beheading Afghani civilians because they disagreed with our philosophies, would we be justified in warring with Al Qaeda?

[KotorEffect3]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
And so you lost the war and sacrificed every species to the reapers.   I would say hope you can look yourself in the mirror but  you are reaper goo at this point.

Only because of bad writing forcing an uneeded moral dilemma for a "high brow" ending.

So because deep down you know you can't defend refusal, you go with the "it's bad writing" card because bioware didn't give you a fairy tail without sacrifices.  What a cop out.

[estebanus]

You don't only fight for the current cycle. You fight for each and every cycle that will come. By losing the war, you essentially win against the reapers, but in a more unexpected manner.

[wantedman dan]

N7Gold wrote...

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

And by fear, I hope you mean falling for the Catalyst's obvious appeals to probability and such, thus choosing one of the fatally flawed original options.

[N7Gold]

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

True, turning down the potential for freedom in the pursuit of freedom is contradicting

Thus making Destroy not only genocidal, but hypocritical.

Thus my reticence and enjoyment of picking refusal.

How far would I go? Reword my post to, "I would not forfeit the freedom of others just to secure my own."

Genocidal to you, but I chose it with the best intentions. I have no intention on letting the Reapers harvest everybody. I won't EVER let fear compromise who I am. It's not about securing your own freedom, it's about making a choice that doesn't appear ethical to you, but leads to the freedom of the people you care about.

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
And so you lost the war and sacrificed every species to the reapers.   I would say hope you can look yourself in the mirror but  you are reaper goo at this point.

Only because of bad writing forcing an uneeded moral dilemma for a "high brow" ending.

So because deep down you know you can't defend refusal, you go with the "it's bad writing" card because bioware didn't give you a fairy tail without sacrifices.  What a cop out.

You really do have some ego issues, there, sweetheart.

Certified therapists can certainly help out with that.

...Unless they've already prescribed this as a treatment! Genius!