233 réponses à ce sujet

[wantedman dan]

OblivionDawn wrote...

Hardly a fitting analogy. Al Qaeda doesn't threaten all life as we know it.

The organization has avowed eradication of Western Culture. If there is a more apt analogy to make based in reality, by all means, point it out.

The Reapers and Starkid don't give a damn about morality. They were created for a reason and they try to do their jobs to the best of their ability. They don't feel bad about it, and they certainly don't feel evil.

Your point being?

Al Qaeda believes they are justified in their reasoning, too.

The fact of the matter is that Reapers are essentially a force of nature at this point. If sacrifice is the only way to stop them, then sacrifice must be made. Sure you can be the bigger man and walk away from that problem. But the problem will eventually kill you and everyone you love, and then do it again later, all while not caring about honor.

I know I've died without an asterisk by my name. Good enough for me.

Can you say the same?

[estebanus]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

And by fear, I hope you mean falling for the Catalyst's obvious appeals to probability and such, thus choosing one of the fatally flawed original options.

By fear, I mean wavering in front of the hard choices.

reject is the hardest choice of them all. You sacrifice your entire cycle so that the reapers will be defeated.

Metagaming.  Your Shepard has no idea if the next cycle will be able to stop the reapers or not.

Metagaming goes for each choice. Shepard doesn't know if the geth and EDI are destroyed in destroy. She just shoots a tube. for all s/he knows, it may as well have destroyed the crucible. 

Shepard doesn't know if s/he can control the reapers. for all s/he knows, s/he might just die without changing anything.

Shepard doesn't know what will happen after jmping into the synthesis beam. For all s/he knows, s/he might even die at the spot there without changing anything.

[wantedman dan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Nice try. This isn't the extended-cut ending - you don't get to wiggle your way out of this conundrum like choosing refusal.

I missed nothing. You made no point. And if you can't lay an argument to rest easily then there's nothing "straw" about it.

Lol.

Brilliant display of logic, there, yet again. "You have no argument because you have no argument--IMPLICATION OF AD HOMINEM LAWL"

[estebanus]

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

And by fear, I hope you mean falling for the Catalyst's obvious appeals to probability and such, thus choosing one of the fatally flawed original options.

By fear, I mean wavering in front of the hard choices.

reject is the hardest choice of them all. You sacrifice your entire cycle so that the reapers will be defeated.

Reject lets the Reapers win, in case you didn't notice. I didn't rally everybody in the galaxy just to throw in the towel and let everyone get preserved in a Reaper, trapping them in a synthetic made hell.

The reapers lose by winning. Not everyone dies at the battle of earth, if you haven't noticed. 

They focus on warning the future cycle, and as such, the reapers will likely lose next time.

[RaenImrahl]

wantedman dan wrote...

If the United States were to go around beheading Afghani civilians because they disagreed with our philosophies, would we be justified in warring with Al Qaeda?

Discussion of politics on this social network is not allowed under our forum rules, even if it is to draw a false analogy or to serve as a red herring.

[Joeybsmooth4]

N-Seven wrote...

thefallen2far wrote...

Why does everyone who supports the endings keep quoting the villains in the game?  TiM, Kai Lang, Saren, Harbinger, Soverign, the council, Ambasador Udina, now Archer.  Anyone want to quote Benezia about how great Synthesis was?

I'll quote Shepard about establishing peace, then.

Quarian Admirals:  "Keep On Firing!"
Shepard: "The Geth are about to return to full strength.  If you keep on attacking, they'll wipe you out....the Geth don't want to fight you.  If you can believe that for just one minute, then this war is over."

The Quarians have no reason to trust the Geth.  They never have.  But Shepard implores them to believe in a chance for peace.  I would suggest that Shepard take his own advice and believe in the Catalyst, just for one minute.

Really you are comparing a group who keep getting attacked. To a group that is always doing the attacking . Yeah and that group who is always attacking just happens to be in your mind.

[wantedman dan]

RaenImrahl wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

If the United States were to go around beheading Afghani civilians because they disagreed with our philosophies, would we be justified in warring with Al Qaeda?

Discussion of politics on this social network is not allowed under our forum rules, even if it is to draw a false analogy or to serve as a red herring.

Nice to see that Moderator label doesn't keep you people's biases out of the fray.

A discussion of war =/= a discussion of politics. If I were to digress into the conflicting philosophies, I would then be discussing the political nature of the war. Simply because it is a current conflict does not equate it to a political issue.

[wbcundiff]

Reject does not mean you let the Reapers win. There is no garuntee in Shepherd's mind that the Crucible works as the Catalyst claims. Personally I wouldn't expect my archnemesis to offer up everything I ever wanted in three different flavors. I would be very suspicious of my archnemesis' claims that if I jump into a stream of plasma all my dreams would come true. Sounds like the easy way out to me.
Reject means you aren't giving up or giving in. you wouldn't be here if you didn't think you could win.

Modifié par wbcundiff, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:54 .

[N7Gold]

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

And by fear, I hope you mean falling for the Catalyst's obvious appeals to probability and such, thus choosing one of the fatally flawed original options.

By fear, I mean wavering in front of the hard choices.

reject is the hardest choice of them all. You sacrifice your entire cycle so that the reapers will be defeated.

Reject lets the Reapers win, in case you didn't notice. I didn't rally everybody in the galaxy just to throw in the towel and let everyone get preserved in a Reaper, trapping them in a synthetic made hell.

The reapers lose by winning. Not everyone dies at the battle of earth, if you haven't noticed. 

They focus on warning the future cycle, and as such, the reapers will likely lose next time.

Liara has made a device holding information on all the races in the current cycle, including info on Shepard himself/herself to warn the future cycle about everything they know about the Reapers sometime before the Cerberus coup, I got a video of the cutscene on Youtube


 (the scene begins at 5:48)

No one in Shepard's cycle survived if you choose Refusal. Liara made that device knowing how full info about the Reapers can be easily lost to the new cycle, which is how the next cycle won. Liara is the real hero if you choose Refusal, not Shepard.

Modifié par N7Gold, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:56 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

wantedman dan wrote...


Lol.

Brilliant display of logic, there, yet again. "You have no argument because you have no argument--IMPLICATION OF AD HOMINEM LAWL"

The burden of logic is on you, friendy. You made an argument about keeping honor intact, you know what my response was, and from there your only counter-argument is "oh you missed the point, that's just straws" without actually proving any of it.

You're not fooling me. Your stunts at dodging the argument are see-through. I didn't think you could answer it, and it appears I am right.

[Ticonderoga117]

N7Gold wrote...
Deny the truth all you want, just like the Council tried to dismiss the existence of the Reapers.

Huh? It's not like there are two intelligences inside those Reapers. Why? Because the beings that supply the material get pureed and then formed into plating or what not. At best, it's like what happens to a true AI if you swap blueboxes.

Sure, it's using thier "code" for thier minds, but you have completely destroyed what was and made it into something new. They no longer care. They are trying to kill us now.

[estebanus]

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

And by fear, I hope you mean falling for the Catalyst's obvious appeals to probability and such, thus choosing one of the fatally flawed original options.

By fear, I mean wavering in front of the hard choices.

reject is the hardest choice of them all. You sacrifice your entire cycle so that the reapers will be defeated.

Reject lets the Reapers win, in case you didn't notice. I didn't rally everybody in the galaxy just to throw in the towel and let everyone get preserved in a Reaper, trapping them in a synthetic made hell.

The reapers lose by winning. Not everyone dies at the battle of earth, if you haven't noticed. 

They focus on warning the future cycle, and as such, the reapers will likely lose next time.

Liara has made a device holding information on all the races in the current cycle, including info on Shepard himself/herself to warn the future cycle about everything they know about the Reapers sometime before the Cerberus coup, I got a video of the cutscene on Youtube


 (the scene begins at 5:48)

No one in Shepard's cycle survived if you choose Refusal. Liara made that device knowing how full info about the Reapers can be easily lost to the new cycle.

of course they die. I never implied that they survived. 

Also, what you're saying is exactly my point. You sacrifice your own cycle to save the next one.

Modifié par estebanus, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:57 .

[wantedman dan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The burden of logic is on you, friendy. You made an argument about keeping honor intact, you know what my response was, and from there your only counter-argument is "oh you missed the point, that's just straws" without actually proving any of it.

You're not fooling me. Your stunts at dodging the argument are see-through. I didn't think you could answer it, and it appears I am right.

This is hilarious.

In order to refute something, there must be something to refute. Obviously, you have taken umbrage with something I have written. You have yet to articulate this in a logical fashion.

If you wish to provide such a response, by all means, get back to me. Until then, there are a medley of other option from which you may choose.

[OblivionDawn]

wantedman dan wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Hardly a fitting analogy. Al Qaeda doesn't threaten all life as we know it.

The organization has avowed eradication of Western Culture. If there is a more apt analogy to make based in reality, by all means, point it out.

The Reapers and Starkid don't give a damn about morality. They were created for a reason and they try to do their jobs to the best of their ability. They don't feel bad about it, and they certainly don't feel evil.

Your point being?

Al Qaeda believes they are justified in their reasoning, too.

The fact of the matter is that Reapers are essentially a force of nature at this point. If sacrifice is the only way to stop them, then sacrifice must be made. Sure you can be the bigger man and walk away from that problem. But the problem will eventually kill you and everyone you love, and then do it again later, all while not caring about honor.

I know I've died without an asterisk by my name. Good enough for me.

Can you say the same?

Lol. I'm surprised you didn't abandon the Al Qaeda comparison right then and there. Al Qaeda can threaten all they like, but without the actions to prove it, the words are empty. The Reapers, however, have more than proven their capability to destroy all advanced organics, as they have done it thousands of times. I believe we can drop this silly comparison now, because it is completely unfitting and opens the door for off-topic political arguments.

The Reapers not only believe they are justified, they were created for their purpose, and they are not going to be convinced, through incredible displays of honor or otherwise, that what they are doing is wrong.

As for the last bit. Choosing to sacrifice trillions of men, women, and children to the Reapers just to keep your reputation intact is pretty selfish.

[N7Gold]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...
Deny the truth all you want, just like the Council tried to dismiss the existence of the Reapers.

Huh? It's not like there are two intelligences inside those Reapers. Why? Because the beings that supply the material get pureed and then formed into plating or what not. At best, it's like what happens to a true AI if you swap blueboxes.

Sure, it's using thier "code" for thier minds, but you have completely destroyed what was and made it into something new. They no longer care. They are trying to kill us now.

MORE than two, actually. The Reapers are a collective consiousness. Why do you think they say "We" instead of "I" all the time?

[WarGriffin]

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

And by fear, I hope you mean falling for the Catalyst's obvious appeals to probability and such, thus choosing one of the fatally flawed original options.

By fear, I mean wavering in front of the hard choices.

reject is the hardest choice of them all. You sacrifice your entire cycle so that the reapers will be defeated.

Reject lets the Reapers win, in case you didn't notice. I didn't rally everybody in the galaxy just to throw in the towel and let everyone get preserved in a Reaper, trapping them in a synthetic made hell.

Since we're being blunt

I didn't Rally the galaxy just that when the fight turned tough

I take the hand of my enemy and take whatever scraps he gives

Cause you can Semantic it all you want.... The three Color endings are you COMPROMISING with the enemy

Destory The Reapers take as much with them as they can
Control you betray everything you stood for but hey... everybody lives right?
Synthesis to complete the Reapers perfect veiw of the Galaxy Congradu****INGlations hey so what if i played god and made everybody what the Reapers wanted... I stopped the killing right! Right?

I had Mordin die... so i could fall on my knees and suck Star Satan's ****?

I watched Legion give his all... just to bow to my enemy's whim?

Me and Garrus left billions to die... just so I can say hey Reaper god could you let me win?

I may not like Refuse cause again most of the endings make the war assets moot... but Refuse atleast lets me go down fighting as I am and I didn't show the enemy mercy, I didn't give them a quater. and You know what

I win in the end... cause the NEXT Cycle sends these Reaper Sobs back to hell from which they came and then all those poor souls trapped in side are freed cause you fullfilled there one wish... To kill the monster they were turned into too... cause synthesis doesn't do that... Those poor races you talked about are still trapped in their big clunky shell while your firend get to be the more pratical version of the reaper's dream.

[His Name was HYR!!]

wantedman dan wrote...

This is hilarious.

In order to refute something, there must be something to refute. Obviously, you have taken umbrage with something I have written. You have yet to articulate this in a logical fashion.

If you wish to provide such a response, by all means, get back to me. Until then, there are a medley of other option from which you may choose.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

If you can't fight a battle with your honor intact, how are you any better than the enemy you're fighting?

The obvious answer is, you aren't.

If you kill a murderer who's going to kill you and someone else, are you as bad as he is for comitting murder??

[RDSFirebane]

OblivionDawn wrote...

As for the last bit. Choosing to sacrifice trillions of men, women, and children to the Reapers just to keep your reputation intact is pretty selfish.

Well  to be honest decideing what is best for trillions of people with out all of their opnions is pretty selfish no matter the cause.

Modifié par RDSFirebane, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:00 .

[N7Gold]

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

And by fear, I hope you mean falling for the Catalyst's obvious appeals to probability and such, thus choosing one of the fatally flawed original options.

By fear, I mean wavering in front of the hard choices.

reject is the hardest choice of them all. You sacrifice your entire cycle so that the reapers will be defeated.

Reject lets the Reapers win, in case you didn't notice. I didn't rally everybody in the galaxy just to throw in the towel and let everyone get preserved in a Reaper, trapping them in a synthetic made hell.

The reapers lose by winning. Not everyone dies at the battle of earth, if you haven't noticed. 

They focus on warning the future cycle, and as such, the reapers will likely lose next time.

Liara has made a device holding information on all the races in the current cycle, including info on Shepard himself/herself to warn the future cycle about everything they know about the Reapers sometime before the Cerberus coup, I got a video of the cutscene on Youtube


 (the scene begins at 5:48)

No one in Shepard's cycle survived if you choose Refusal. Liara made that device knowing how full info about the Reapers can be easily lost to the new cycle.

of course they die. I never implied that they survived. 

Also, what you're saying is exactly my point. You sacrifice your own cycle to save the next one.

Which is NOT what I intended on doing. I did what I could to save the current cycle and the next cycles for generations to come.

[Ticonderoga117]

N7Gold wrote...
MORE than two, actually. The Reapers are a collective consiousness. Why do you think they say "We" instead of "I" all the time?

Harbinger "If I must tear you apart Shepard, I will."

All the time eh?

I think when they use "we", they mean "we as a group of space squids".

[wantedman dan]

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]wantedman dan wrote...

If you can't fight a battle with your honor intact, how are you any better than the enemy you're fighting?

The obvious answer is, you aren't.[/quote]

If you kill a murderer who's going to kill you and someone else, are you as bad as he is for comitting murder??[/quote][/quote]

Oh, the strawman. I see.

Funny, your question is completely divorced from the context of Mass Effect 3. If you care to make it relevant, I'd be happy to answer it. Otherwise, still a strawman, still a logical fallacy.

[RaenImrahl]

wantedman dan wrote...

Nice to see that Moderator label doesn't keep you people's biases out of the fray.

A discussion of war =/= a discussion of politics. If I were to digress into the conflicting philosophies, I would then be discussing the political nature of the war. Simply because it is a current conflict does not equate it to a political issue.

My only real bias is my profound disdain for undergraduate speech team jargon substituted for genuine discussion about the game; I find threads where people criticize others' skills at argumentation, instead of discussing the game itself, an anathema. 

As to the intersection of politics and war, these two sections of the forum's rules will have to serve as the final word on the topic:

1. These forums are for BioWare, video game and related topic discussion and are to be engaged in a pleasant and fun manner.
These forums are run by BioWare and Electronic Arts for the promotion
of our games and communicating to our customers and Community members.
The topics and subjects discussed here should focus around BioWare and
our games, video games in general and other related topics. These forums
are not for discussing other topics such as politics, sex or adult
topics, religion, etc. Topics or discussions may be closed at the
discretion of staff and volunteer moderators.

12.  Respect staff and/or moderator warnings or instructions. If you
are instructed by BioWare or Electronic Arts staff or by forum
moderators to modify your language, behavior or actions on the Social
site, forums, or website, you must listen to the instructions. A person
or persons found or judged to be ignoring these instructions may be
banned from these forums at the discretion of the staff.

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:03 .

[OblivionDawn]

RDSFirebane wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

As for the last bit. Choosing to sacrifice trillions of men, women, and children to the Reapers just to keep your reputation intact is pretty selfish.

Well  to be honest decideing what is best for trillions of people with out all of their opnions is pretty selfish no matter the cause.

It can be safely assumed that people don't want to die. Especially not by the Reapers. How each of the original endings solve that problem is a different argument, but all of them do it better than Refusal.

[estebanus]

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

estebanus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

You can't fight a battle with fear compromising your resolve either.

And by fear, I hope you mean falling for the Catalyst's obvious appeals to probability and such, thus choosing one of the fatally flawed original options.

By fear, I mean wavering in front of the hard choices.

reject is the hardest choice of them all. You sacrifice your entire cycle so that the reapers will be defeated.

Reject lets the Reapers win, in case you didn't notice. I didn't rally everybody in the galaxy just to throw in the towel and let everyone get preserved in a Reaper, trapping them in a synthetic made hell.

The reapers lose by winning. Not everyone dies at the battle of earth, if you haven't noticed. 

They focus on warning the future cycle, and as such, the reapers will likely lose next time.

Liara has made a device holding information on all the races in the current cycle, including info on Shepard himself/herself to warn the future cycle about everything they know about the Reapers sometime before the Cerberus coup, I got a video of the cutscene on Youtube


 (the scene begins at 5:48)

No one in Shepard's cycle survived if you choose Refusal. Liara made that device knowing how full info about the Reapers can be easily lost to the new cycle.

of course they die. I never implied that they survived. 

Also, what you're saying is exactly my point. You sacrifice your own cycle to save the next one.

Which is NOT what I intended on doing. I did what I could to save the current cycle and the next cycles for generations to come.

I also fought to save this cycle, but if I essentially leave it in a worse place that it already is, then what's the use? 
I might as well make the galaxy a better place by saving the coming cycle.

[Peranor]

OblivionDawn wrote...

It's not cowardice.

It takes a substantial amount of balls to build a superweapon/battery deliver it to the Reapers' doorstep, and then decide that you're not going to use it.

Stupid? Very. But not cowardly.

Modifié par anorling, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:05 .