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Refusal: The Coward's Choice


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#151
estebanus

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anorling wrote...



I've said it before. But I look at refusal/reject this way:


...I am among those who believe the ending [to ME3] could never be salvaged. The thematic kidnapping of the Ten Minutes was too blatant, too problematic, too dissociative. The game should've ended at "best seats in the house", and no investigation options would be enough to satisfy. That it didn't prompted me to reevaluate the entirety of the game - and I found it wanting. That damage is done. But until the EC was released, I couldn't let go, not fully, not until I'd made quite sure they didn't pull some miracle from their collective posteriors.

That they chose to retain that horrid divergence was expected. That I would still be less than satisfied with both the ending and the narrative as a whole was also expected. What that fourth option did - that ability to refuse not only on a textual level but a metatextual one - was to allow me to reject the game itself, within the game itself. It was an admission by the creators that, for some, their vision was unacceptable. It was a subtle form of humility, masked though it might be by the distorted, petulant exclamation by the Catalyst at my decision, and it allowed me to act with the finality I desired. I no longer wished to be a part of this story, so twisted and unrecognizable.



I was allowed to draw a line. I took them up on their offer.


                                                                                   -->Source<--




That is a very good way of putting it. I disagree, but it still is a beautiful description of reject.

#152
wantedman dan

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OblivionDawn wrote...

I asked you to explain your reasoning, but ok.

It's selfish because all the people getting killed and tortured by Reapers don't care about whether the man/women who stopped them was honorable, they just want to stop getting killed and tortured.

But, because you don't want your image marred by the consequences of your decision, you decide to not make a decision at all. So people keep dying and getting tortured until there are none of them left, but at least they're doing it honorably, right?


It's about a lack of prescience. If, 50,000, 100,000, 150,000 years from now, they look back on the record and wonder what Shepard did, what would they find? Would they find a man who compromised his ideals and principles to secure a less-than-victory, or would his sacrifice enable those after him to ultimately succeed without the burden of unnecessary "sacrifice?"

Gamble's tweet be damned.

#153
wantedman dan

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[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

Don't flatter yourself. I'm not using your arguments whatsoever.

Again, you can repeat that LIE about how there's some logic fallacy in my argument all you want. But it's still not going to become true. Not until you can prove how it is.

And we're now at four.
[/quote]

Strawman, via FallacyFiles:

"A straw man argument occurs in the context of a debate―formal or informal―when one side attacks a position―the "straw man"―not held by the other side, then acts as though the other side's position has been refuted."

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

If you kill a murderer who's going to kill you and someone else, are you as bad as he is for comitting murder??[/quote][/quote]

The question misrepresents the notion that I do take into account the collateral damage from each choice due to its lack of context and you therefore misrepresent my opinion--and the argument--overall.

It is a strawman.

Kindly move on.

Because I am. To bed. Good night.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:38 .


#154
OblivionDawn

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MrFob wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Makrys wrote...


Assuming one of the three options is actually a solution...

The whole concept of what choice to choose at the end depends entirely on the fact of whether you trust the starbrat or not.

I do not.


Why not? He says what the Crucible does, and you see it happen after you pick your option. Why not trust him?

The question of trust however presents itself before you pick an option.


Ok, there are still reasons, even if you don't take metagaming into account.

If the Catalyst wanted to kill you, he could (there are plenty of Reapers just outside the Citadel). The Reapers already outnumber you, so he doesn't need any action from you to continue doing what he's doing. Finally, you knew before you brought the Crucible to the Sol system that you would have to use the Reapers' own technology against them to some extent(when you found out that the Citadel was the Catalyst). It can be assumed that Shepard (and a non-metagaming player) would have come to terms with that by the time they delivered the Crucible.

#155
MrFob

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OblivionDawn wrote...

Ok, there are still reasons, even if you don't take metagaming into account.

If the Catalyst wanted to kill you, he could (there are plenty of Reapers just outside the Citadel). The Reapers already outnumber you, so he doesn't need any action from you to continue doing what he's doing. Finally, you knew before you brought the Crucible to the Sol system that you would have to use the Reapers' own technology against them to some extent(when you found out that the Citadel was the Catalyst). It can be assumed that Shepard (and a non-metagaming player) would have come to terms with that by the time they delivered the Crucible.


Read my first post in this thread on the previous page. I elaborated more thoroughly than I intended on this.

As for metagaming, in that case I am in complete agreement with delta_ve who was quoted above in yellow. In fact, If I metagame, I can't even in good conscience choose the refusal option, I'd have to alt+ctrl+del-quit the game after Anderson's death scene.

Modifié par MrFob, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .


#156
The Angry One

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"Is not submission preferable to extinction?"

This is now apparently the philosophy of brave heroes. Thanks for that one BioWare.

#157
Makrys

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The Angry One wrote...

"Is not submission preferable to extinction?"

This is now apparently the philosophy of brave heroes. Thanks for that one BioWare.


Saren touting synthesis. Exactly why its appalling.

#158
OblivionDawn

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wantedman dan wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

I asked you to explain your reasoning, but ok.

It's selfish because all the people getting killed and tortured by Reapers don't care about whether the man/women who stopped them was honorable, they just want to stop getting killed and tortured.

But, because you don't want your image marred by the consequences of your decision, you decide to not make a decision at all. So people keep dying and getting tortured until there are none of them left, but at least they're doing it honorably, right?


It's about a lack of prescience. If, 50,000, 100,000, 150,000 years from now, they look back on the record and wonder what Shepard did, what would they find? Would they find a man who compromised his ideals and principles to secure a less-than-victory, or would his sacrifice enable those after him to ultimately succeed without the burden of unnecessary "sacrifice?"

Gamble's tweet be damned.


They would find a man who, at the precipice of victory (regardless of costs) decided to abandon it and let his cycle die just to prove a point to enemies who are incapable of seeing it.

At the same time, the people in your current cycle won't care about the continuity of civilization. They want their own civilization to survive. It's why you've been playing the last three games. Is it really fair to condemn an entire galaxy to death just so the descendents thousands of years from now can learn from their example? Especially if you can sacrifice much less and end it then and there?

#159
The Angry One

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Makrys wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

"Is not submission preferable to extinction?"

This is now apparently the philosophy of brave heroes. Thanks for that one BioWare.


Saren touting synthesis. Exactly why its appalling.


Basically ME3 in it's attempt to be "groundbreaking art" stomps all over the previous games and declares "the antagonists were right!" and gives certain people ammunition to call those of us who want to resist misguided, cowards and murderers. Because, you know, it's our fault the Reapers kill people. How dare we fight them.

#160
The Angry One

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OblivionDawn wrote...

They would find a man who, at the precipice of victory (regardless of costs) decided to abandon it and let his cycle die just to prove a point to enemies who are incapable of seeing it.


How is it victory to submit to your opponent?
How does Shepard know any of the Catalyst's options are viable?

At the same time, the people in your current cycle won't care about the continuity of civilization. They want their own civilization to survive. It's why you've been playing the last three games. Is it really fair to condemn an entire galaxy to death just so the descendents thousands of years from now can learn from their example? Especially if you can sacrifice much less and end it then and there?


Yes, they do. They want their civilisations to survive. Like the Geth.
They want to be free, not ruled by Reapers.
They want their society to continue as is, not merged with the Reapers.

All options carry a price. Such is the consequence of dealing with the devil, and that's assuming Shepard has the clairvoyance to know these deals will work out, she won't even be alive for control and synthesis!

#161
Bill Casey

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N-Seven wrote...

I'll quote Shepard about establishing peace, then.

Quarian Admirals:  "Keep On Firing!"
Shepard: "The Geth are about to return to full strength.  If you keep on attacking, they'll wipe you out....the Geth don't want to fight you.  If you can believe that for just one minute, then this war is over."

The Quarians have no reason to trust the Geth.  They never have.  But Shepard implores them to believe in a chance for peace.  I would suggest that Shepard take his own advice and believe in the Catalyst, just for one minute.

The Reapers are not the Geth...

_______________________________________


EDI: Admiral Anderson reports that the Reapers on Earth are broadcasting orders. They are demanding human leaders enter their super structures in order to negotiate peace.

Shepard: Anybody aboard a Reaper is going to be indoctrinated.

EDI: Exactly. This is a ruse to pacify the populace during that process. Citizens who are busy waiting are not busy fighting. It is likely that the governments of Earth will soon enact laws punishing those who attack the Reaper occupiers. Again, this will be done in the name of peace.

_______________________________________

Modifié par Bill Casey, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:54 .


#162
N-Seven

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Dying free is great.  Just don't make me die with you.  If someone polled the trillions of civilians, and the leaders of these people, what the goal of this war was, they would simply say, 'survive'.  They certainly wouldn't say, 'survive under a small subset of morally ideal conditions'.

The mission was, and always was, to stop the Reapers, that is all.  Build the Crucible, activate it,  survive
somehow.   It was never, 'best case or nothing'.  Refusalists have forgotten that, and have put pride, the romantic notion of 'fighting to the end', moral absolutism, and oh heck maybe even a bit of dislike of children, in it's place. 

Someone on these forums brought up the movie '300' in defense of Refusal and whether it was stupid for the
Spartans to fight to the last man.  Two major differences: their refusal and the Battle of Thermopylae actually had strategic importance, and they didn't drag every man, woman and child in the galaxy down with them.

Any true warrior knows that war is their profession but their product is peace.  Shepards who choose reject, I wouldn't even call good soldiers, much less worthy of being commanders or 'Spectres'.   In the face of defeat, an enemy  changes it's stance on the conflict, and offers you an olive branch.  Yet you reject the olive branch on the principle of it being 'the enemies olive branch'.  Romantic, but in the face of galactic doom, crazy.  Selfish.

Ethically, in any war, when there is an opportunity for peace to be brokered, it must be considered.  And yes, sometimes you have to negotiate with people you personally despise.  When brokering peace, concessions
usually must be made by both sides.  In the ME3 endings, it is the Catalyst who actually makes just about all the concessions.  They could win their usual cyclic victory if they wanted to.  But in these negotiations they actually concede almost everything.  They give you the choice of totally destroying them.  They give you the choice of totally
dominating them.   And a third ending that's more bizarre and harder to grasp.   They concede their entire existence. 

There is a tragic problem with the destroy option, that being that you also destroy the Geth and EDI, but that's entirely not their fault...the side effect of that option is beyond their means to correct.  But they offer it to
you anyways.

It's almost a total surrender by a vastly superior force, who is on the verge of defeating you.  The cycles have gone on for a billion years, and here is your chance to end it on a platter.  But refusalists STILL decide to 'go down fighting'.  Disobeying their superiors, and disregarding their duty to protect others.  Due to mistrust, personal pride, an assumption that all others share your absolutism, fear of the unknown, and hatred of the enemy..  Thus dooming countless civilians who never wanted this war and don't care about glory or honor right now.

No good soldier would do this.  A person holding onto this sort of stubborn, cartoonish moral absolutism
would probably be considered borderline mentally ill, and wouldn't pass a mental exam to become a mall cop much less a member of an elite unit of galactic protectors.  I wouldn't but a sharp stick in this guys' hand
much less an assault rifle.  He/she would never be able to make the difficult choice of pulling the trigger in situations where you don't  know all the variables, and just have to make the best choice you can. 
And it's rare that you do.

Yes, there certainly is a 'Starbrat' in this scene.  I think it's the Shepards who pick refuse. The players
picking it aren't of course.  I sincerely doubt any of you would make this sort of choice in a real-life situation, if by some horrible circumstance you were in it.  You're probably all very smart and decent people.  It's just because it's a game, it's really easy for a player to place themselves in an Ivory Tower and say 'this is what my character
would do!' and brush off the in-game consequences.

Modifié par N-Seven, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:02 .


#163
The Angry One

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Bill Casey wrote...

EDI: Exactly. This is a ruse to pacify the populace during that process. Citizens who are busy waiting are not busy fighting. It is likely that the governments of Earth will soon enact laws punishing those who attack the Reaper occupiers. Again, this will be done in the name of peace.


Well this explains the docility of people with the Reapers in the synthesis ending.

*runs*

#164
The Angry One

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N-Seven wrote...

The mission was, and always was, to stop the
Reapers, that is all.  Build the Crucible, activate it,  survive
somehow.   It was never, 'best case or nothing'.  Refusalists have
forgotten that, and have put pride, the romantic notion of 'fighting to
the end', moral absolutism, and oh heck maybe even a bit of dislike of
children, in it's place. 


The mission was to build the Crucible to defeat the Reapers. Not help them.
I will say again. The Crucible was meant to be our weapon. Not a Reaper noose around our neck.

The peoples of the galaxy never agreed to use the Crucible in the Catalyst's name, for the Catayst's agenda.

#165
His Name was HYR!!

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wantedman dan wrote...

Strawman, via FallacyFiles:

"A straw man argument occurs in the context of a debate―formal or informal―when one side attacks a position―the "straw man"―not held by the other side, then acts as though the other side's position has been refuted."


Please, I know what the word means.

Your position was made very clear. You said plainly that fighting without honor intact means that you are not better than your enemy. And I posed the question below as a counter to that argument - which has relevance within, but not limited to, the end-game decision of ME3.



If you kill a murderer who's going to kill you and someone else, are you as bad as he is for comitting murder??


The question misrepresents the notion that I do take into account the collateral damage from each choice due to its lack of context and you therefore misrepresent my opinion--and the argument--overall.

It is a strawman.

Kindly move on.

Because I am. To bed. Good night.


The context of my question is broad. It is applicable to our discussion, as it is applicable outside of it as well.

The point I'm making is very straightforward. You are not worse than a murderer if you murder him. You're using common sense to save yourself. Your argument otherwise, both in a specifically-ME3 sense and in a general sense, is completely ridiculous.

And that's ignoring the fact that none of the options you have to choose from at the end of the game equate to doing the same thing as the Reapers. Unless you want to go into windmill-tilting arguments or, dare I say it... straws! =O

Anyway, you chose a convenient time to hit the sack. It's almost as if you have a natural affinity for leaving the fight when it is most dire. Well if we really are done here, then there is just one thing left to say.

Five.


*edit* formatting fail.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:04 .


#166
Bill Casey

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The Angry One wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

EDI: Exactly. This is a ruse to pacify the populace during that process. Citizens who are busy waiting are not busy fighting. It is likely that the governments of Earth will soon enact laws punishing those who attack the Reaper occupiers. Again, this will be done in the name of peace.


Well this explains the docility of people with the Reapers in the synthesis ending.

*runs*

It's not right. It looks pretty. Calm and peaceful. But it's not right...

#167
N-Seven

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Bill Casey wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

I'll quote Shepard about establishing peace, then.

Quarian Admirals:  "Keep On Firing!"
Shepard: "The Geth are about to return to full strength.  If you keep on attacking, they'll wipe you out....the Geth don't want to fight you.  If you can believe that for just one minute, then this war is over."

The Quarians have no reason to trust the Geth.  They never have.  But Shepard implores them to believe in a chance for peace.  I would suggest that Shepard take his own advice and believe in the Catalyst, just for one minute.

The Reapers are not the Geth...


_______________________________________


EDI: Admiral Anderson reports that the Reapers on Earth are broadcasting orders. They are demanding human leaders enter their super structures in order to negotiate peace.

Shepard: Anybody aboard a Reaper is going to be indoctrinated.

EDI: Exactly. This is a ruse to pacify the populace during that process. Citizens who are busy waiting are not busy fighting. It is likely that the governments of Earth will soon enact laws punishing those who attack the Reaper occupiers. Again, this will be done in the name of peace.

_______________________________________


You've missed the point entirely Bill.  The point is that the Quarians believe the Geth to be just as evil, and hell-bent on destruction, as anything they've encountered.

Yet they still took the leap of faith because they were willing to gamble for peace.  Something Shepard should be willing to do too.

#168
Bill Casey

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The Reapers are evil...

#169
N-Seven

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The Angry One wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

The mission was, and always was, to stop the
Reapers, that is all.  Build the Crucible, activate it,  survive
somehow.   It was never, 'best case or nothing'.  Refusalists have
forgotten that, and have put pride, the romantic notion of 'fighting to
the end', moral absolutism, and oh heck maybe even a bit of dislike of
children, in it's place. 


The mission was to build the Crucible to defeat the Reapers. Not help them.
I will say again. The Crucible was meant to be our weapon. Not a Reaper noose around our neck.

The peoples of the galaxy never agreed to use the Crucible in the Catalyst's name, for the Catayst's agenda.


And you polled the galaxy on this, I guess.  :huh: 

If you told the trillions that the 'Catalysts agenda' was to see the Reapers and the Catalyst utterly destroyed, or have the Reapers and Catalyst completely dominated, they'd say, 'hell yeah, turn the thing on.'

#170
The Angry One

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N-Seven wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

The mission was, and always was, to stop the
Reapers, that is all.  Build the Crucible, activate it,  survive
somehow.   It was never, 'best case or nothing'.  Refusalists have
forgotten that, and have put pride, the romantic notion of 'fighting to
the end', moral absolutism, and oh heck maybe even a bit of dislike of
children, in it's place. 


The mission was to build the Crucible to defeat the Reapers. Not help them.
I will say again. The Crucible was meant to be our weapon. Not a Reaper noose around our neck.

The peoples of the galaxy never agreed to use the Crucible in the Catalyst's name, for the Catayst's agenda.


And you polled the galaxy on this, I guess.  :huh: 


Yes. When they all agreed to fight the Reapers.

If you told the trillions that the 'Catalysts agenda' was to see the Reapers and the Catalyst utterly destroyed, or have the Reapers and Catalyst completely dominated, they'd say, 'hell yeah, turn the thing on.'


At the cost of genocide?
And again. How does Shepard know destroy will work as advertised?
More likely the galaxy would say "The Reapers are lying, genocidal maniacs. Don't fall for their corruption and deceit!"

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:12 .


#171
The Angry One

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N-Seven wrote...

You've missed the point entirely Bill.  The point is that the Quarians believe the Geth to be just as evil, and hell-bent on destruction, as anything they've encountered.

Yet they still took the leap of faith because they were willing to gamble for peace.  Something Shepard should be willing to do too.


The Quarians stand down after being repeatedly told the Geth want peace. After recognising that the Geth will only fight back if they start firing.
Throughout their history, the Geth have always wanted peace, and deep down they can look back and know this.

The Reapers do not want peace. They want servitude.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:12 .


#172
Ck213

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Coward?
That's an odd way to twist it.

The refusal choice. is just the final nail in the coffin for beind stuck with unacceptable choices if you don't like the original three and the whiplash of the story plot changing from fighting the reapers to fighting this new player.

I felt that my Shepard would want to fight the catalyst tooth and nail. Unfortunately Shepard simply cannot win this battle and must accept the Catalyst terms if anyone is going to survive. I did enjoy the Refusal choice just for being able to say, screw you StarChild. But it's only a short term feeling and a bitter one when everyone dies. Or do I need an EMS of 7000 to actually defeat them? :whistle:

I think the Yahg are still around though. Maybe they will be the organics who defeat the catalyst.

I wouldn't look at the choice as being indecisive, cowardly or whatever. I just don't trust the word of AI that is the king of manipulators. It uses indoctrination as a tool and appears in the form of a child that I saw die. I'm supposed to choose options that it set out for me and trust what it is telling me is the truth?

The EC helped a little, but I still wished the game ended with Anderson and Shepard watching the battle. This was Shepards story up until that point. Now the whole thing feels like it's the Catalyst's story. Bacially he  says it's my way or no way. These are your choices. He wins.

Modifié par Ck213, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .


#173
Gorkan86

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The Angry One wrote...
How does Shepard know any of the Catalyst's options are viable?

Nothing ventured nothing gained.

#174
The Angry One

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Gorkan86 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
How does Shepard know any of the Catalyst's options are viable?

Nothing ventured nothing gained.


Because trusting and following the Reapers worked out so well for Saren.

#175
GrexxSkull

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I just find it a little stupid
Catalyst: Alright Shepard! The galaxy depends on you now! You've worked really hard for this and to thank you for your time, I'm going to let you end the reaper threat! All you have to do is one of three things!
A) Shoot that and destroy the reapers!
B) hold on to the handles and control the reapers!
Or C) jump into that beam and make peace!
It's your choice Shepard! GIMME A DRUM ROLL HARBINGER! :D
*amazing drum roll by Harbinger*
Shepard: nah I'm good ^^
Harbinger: O_O
Catalyst: but I'm literally giving you the power to end this!
Shepard: Eh I wanna do it by myself. Thanks anyway! ^^
Catalyst: wait what? o_o
*shepard leaves*
Harbinger: I'm gonna just go back to killing everybody now... o_o