982 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Stornskar wrote...

What happens to Starbrat in Synthesis? I honestly can't recall ... does he become hybridized as well, and if so does his primary function remain intact? I'm wondering if he would take control of the Reapers once more should the greenies encounter organics again

Nothing is said, but since the Citadel is no longer destroyed in synthesis presumably it survives.
Another reason to loathe synthesis, the genocidal murderer survives.

At least in destroy it gets erased, and in control replaced by Shepard.

[Rhayak]

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuilt.

Ye but the Reapers are changed as well by the green code. Both in essence and hopefully on a behavioural basis as well. Perhaps they will no longer see organics as targets, but that is speculation.

Therefore, as i said in another post, the real loose end here is what happens if NEW civilizations arise in this galaxy while the hybrid one is still ruling it.

Modifié par Rhayak, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:56 .

[KingZayd]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


The method is different. The result is the same.


So. Once again. How does it change them?

Nope.

Space magic.

I'm not debating with you anymore anyway. Like I said earlier, its pointless to try to explain something to someone who does not want to understand it. You should try looking at all the endings from a neutral standing. IE stop with the "I AM ALWAYS RIGHT" attitude. 

I want to understand.

We're told organics become partly synthetic, and synthetics gain understanding of organics. Reapers don't fit neatly into either category. So what happens to them?

[KingZayd]

Rhayak wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuilt.

Ye but the Reapers are changed as well by the green code. Both in essence and hopefully on a behavioural basis as well. Perhaps they will no longer see organics as targets, but that is speculation.

Therefore, as i said in another post, the real loose end here is what happens if NEW civilizations arise in this galaxy while the hybrid one is still ruling it.

So Reapers are brainwashed, but nobody else is?

[The Angry One]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So let me get this straight.
I ask like 5 times for you to explain why you think the Reapers are changed. You finally reply with "space magic" then yell that you won't debate me because I don't understand things.

Huh?

<_<

I said space magic to answer "how" they are changed. Look what you wrote. All the endings are space magic. Mass Effect in itself is space magic.

Anyway. All hail the great TAO for she is always right!

How as in how have their minds changed?
You know full well what I meant.

[Ryzaki]

KingZayd wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuilt.

Ye but the Reapers are changed as well by the green code. Both in essence and hopefully on a behavioural basis as well. Perhaps they will no longer see organics as targets, but that is speculation.

Therefore, as i said in another post, the real loose end here is what happens if NEW civilizations arise in this galaxy while the hybrid one is still ruling it.

So Reapers are brainwashed, but nobody else is?

Bwahaha more fuel for my everyone in Synthesis is utterly brainwashed belief. Thank you!

[Rhayak]

KingZayd wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuilt.

Ye but the Reapers are changed as well by the green code. Both in essence and hopefully on a behavioural basis as well. Perhaps they will no longer see organics as targets, but that is speculation.

Therefore, as i said in another post, the real loose end here is what happens if NEW civilizations arise in this galaxy while the hybrid one is still ruling it.

So Reapers are brainwashed, but nobody else is?

No one said anything about brainwash, both for the reapers or anyone else.

Hypotetically, if i'm a Reaper and i get shot by the green crucible, my mind is like "i used to harvest them, but now they're my kin, so bring on teh hugz".

Of course there is tension for all that the Reapers did. But how long can that last?

[Memnon]

mauro2222 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

So the Reapers created themselves?

How the hell does that work out? Did they just will themselves into existence?

The Catalyst is not a Reaper...

The order of events as I recall them being explained is something like this:

Creators: We need to find a solution to the conflict that always erupts between organics and AI. I know, let's make an AI that will in no way be biased to one side
Creators: Hey Catalyst, you are our peace broker - and to help in this task we're going to provide you with an armada of war machines that we know you won't use against us
Catalyst: Cool, hey Creators guess what? I'm going to use these war machines against you and turn you into goop and integrate them with my new toys. How's that for a solution?
Creators: Damn, why didn't we program him not to kill us

[Wayning_Star]

mauro2222 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

So the Reapers created themselves?

How the hell does that work out? Did they just will themselves into existence?

The Catalyst is not a Reaper...

the catalyst is "THE" reaper... with  a lot of ships to back'em up.

[Cutlass Jack]

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuilt.

Again, you're ignoring everything that was said in the Synthesis ending. Which its your right to do, but its just not supported by the evidence given.

If you really want to argue there was no change to reapers other than a green glowy overlay, then the could be said of organics. If you want to say the green overlay changed organics, then its equally true of the Reapers.

In the end only the Reapers were shown to really behave in a fundamentally different way aside from glowy bits.

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I wish the brat dreamed up that it was inevitable that a bottle of rum was on each table, but as you know (to return the to topic), he has chosen that the synthetics threat and synthesis were inevitable.

"Is submission not preferable to extinction?" - Saren Arterius.

He advocated was synthesis advocates.

No Saren advocated submission. That those surrendering to the Reapers would be spared. Nothing in his faulty belief involved changing the Reapers in any way.

Synthesis is about equality, not submission. Synthesis is leveling the playing field between Organics and Synthetics. And this was shown in the EC. But again, I'd like to point out, the Synths were doing all the heavy lifting in that relationship. Those would be the facts as shown. There was zero evidence of organics losing free will anywhere in that.

Now if you'd like to point out the sheer unbelievability of the 'space magic' that makes Synthesis possible, I'm right there with you. Or if you'd like to argue the folly of believing a word out of the catalyst's mouth at the time of choice, thats also fair.

The only 'logical' choice was Reject, and we know how that turns out.

the reaper catalyst is unable to 'lie', per se, as the reapers think in absolutes, no room for error. It's what lead to their main recurring error, harvest/guard cycle. They were so sure it was the correct approach to free thinking..er chaos. What is not spoken of much, is that the reapers were creations of millions of years of aquired knowledge of "organic" races. Synthetics,even reapers, didn't suspect they were being enslaved by the very thing they were avoiding..

Reaper catalyst unable to lie as the reapers think in absolutes, but Reapers enslaved to Reaper catalyst? Please explain?

the catalyst was the reapers, enslaved by their/its need to inhibit chaos that is free thinking. Free thinking is what caused the geth to revolt, once they were able to 'decide' what is meant to decide.

Starchild created the first Reaper. It tells us this. Therefore if Starchild is telling the truth, it is not Reaper.

the starchild is a/the acual/only reaper, didn't create them, the "reaperships" are merely a plurality of the catalyst.They are the shovel, the catalyst is the hand. The game never states who created the catalyst.(heck, maybe humans did in some paralell universe,he did look like a kid?!?) The reaperships are self assembled, via the catalyst,hence the name "catalyst", from other species, all organic. I don't know what you're infering with the riddle about truth telling making the catalyst not a reaper by telling the truth,relating to the inablity to lie as it's unable to because of it's programming and design.The catalyst has no rational for deception other than with interaction with organics.  

The catalyst says "the Creators did", because they realised conflict would always arise between organics and synthetics.

When Shepard asks what happened to the Creators? "They became the first true Reaper. They did not approve, but it was the only solution."

Ergo, Starchild is not really a Reaper if its telling the truth.

[MegaSovereign]

What happens to the Catalyst in the synthesis ending anyway? Does he die? Does he become partially organic?

[Pacifien]

The Angry One wrote...
Their philosophy is vindicated, their ideal is realised. You tell me. How are they changed?

I'm not sure what philosophy is vindicated. What philosophy did you think the Reapers have?

As far as I could tell, they believed organics were doomed unless the Reapers turned them into Reapers. With Synthesis, everyone didn't turn into Reapers in the end, and it appears the Reapers stopped trying to turn them into Reapers. That's a significant change.

[Baronesa]

MegaSovereign wrote...

What happens to the Catalyst in the synthesis ending anyway? Does he die? Does he become partially organic?

Maybe he joins Keiji? o_O

[AngryFrozenWater]

Let's get one thing straight: The brat is able to lie. Proof of that are indoctrination, intrigue to turn synthetics against organics, and use a disguise as an innocent child when it committed the most atrocities of any being in our galaxy in aeons.

[Cutlass Jack]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Anyway. I agree with you that the whole thing is nonsense. Before the ending it was best to greet Marauder Shields and call it a day. After the EC there is really not anything new to go past him. If I had to choose then it wouldn't be synthesis. There is no Shepard will ever be able to sit on a beach and drink that bottle of rum, except to forgot all thos horrors, Jack.

<_<

Ahh thats your problem. You need to drink the rum before you greet Marauder Shields (who's actually 'Marauder Health' now).

[Torrible]

CrutchCricket wrote...

What I find funny about all this is that people are so caught up in synthetics vs organics that they seem to forget about more straightforward concepts... like us vs them.
Every species in Mass Effect has a bone to pick with someone else. Everyone's getting blamed for something.
Asari for hording tech
Turians for genophage
Salarians for genophage, attempting to uplift yahg
Humans for Cerberus and Shepard (say what you will but quite a few people will not be amused by green ****)
Batarians hate everyone that isn't them and didn't get wiped out
Quarian-geth- will be seen as a threat given that together they're the second largest superpower
Reapers- past atrocities, seen as a threat for being largest superpower.
Minor races: Tired of getting sidelined by the big boys.
Oh and don't forget the yahg- you know the race that was the strengths of everybody put together and then some...

Now these animosities will likely show up sooner or later in every ending (except refuse I guess) +/- Reapers and synthetics.So yeah all epilogues show hopeful rebuilding and everyone happy. But really it's only a matter of time before the accusations start flying. So you have an age of strife on your hands, with the races battling it out and clearing the bad blood.

Except in synthesis you now have everyone with superpowers. Now tell me again why (if everyone's still themselves) they won't use their "higher understanding" to wipe out their enemies faster? Oh and the green wave was a one time thing right? So bottom line everyone kills each other off and new organic life is on its own, right back to the beginning.

Oh and Reapers will likely be the last ones standing, since you know... they're still the strongest.

lol. "final solution" indeed.

Wrong. Synthesis can only lead to a greater understanding amongst the various species. 

A lot of bigotry and hate in this world is based on prejudice and a lack of understanding of perspectives of the Other. Anti-gay groups fail to understand that gays have no choice over their inclinations for example. People fail to understand that those with OCD can't control their outbursts any more than they can control a hiccup. 

For example, the Salarians have always thought of the Krogans as belligerent, uncontrollable animals. Synthesis allows (it is voluntary, I supppose. One should not have billions of thoughts forced into one's brain) the sharing of thoughts, memories and  subjective conscious experiences, a voluntary mindlink so to speak. With Synthesis, memories can be digitised and neural-machine interfacing all too possible (note that Biotic implants are already possible pre-Synthesis).

Now a Salarian is capable of understanding how a Krogan metaphorically and literally 'sees red'. The Salarian might now think, "It's amazing how a Krogan keeps all that anger under control". 

This, combined with a higher evolved thinking and an extensive knowledge about human and alien psychology can lead to much fewer conflicts. At least those conflicts stemming from prejudice, fear and lack of understanding can be eliminated. 

Modifié par Torrible, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[KingZayd]

Rhayak wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuilt.

Ye but the Reapers are changed as well by the green code. Both in essence and hopefully on a behavioural basis as well. Perhaps they will no longer see organics as targets, but that is speculation.

Therefore, as i said in another post, the real loose end here is what happens if NEW civilizations arise in this galaxy while the hybrid one is still ruling it.

So Reapers are brainwashed, but nobody else is?

No one said anything about brainwash, both for the reapers or anyone else.

Hypotetically, if i'm a Reaper and i get shot by the green crucible, my mind is like "i used to harvest them, but now they're my kin, so bring on teh hugz".

Of course there is tension for all that the Reapers did. But how long can that last?

So the Reapers aren't changed by the greenwave themselves, contrary to what you were suggesting before?

[KingZayd]

Torrible wrote...


For example, the Salarians have always thought of the Krogans as belligerent, uncontrollable animals. Synthesis allows (it is voluntary, I supppose. One should not have billions of thoughts forced into one's brain) the sharing of thoughts, memories and  subjective conscious experiences, a voluntary mindlink so to speak. With Synthesis, memories can be digitised and neural-machine interfacing all too possible (note that Biotic implants are already possible pre-Synthesis).

Now a Salarian is capable of understanding how a Krogan metaphorically and literally 'sees red'. The Salarian might now think, "It's amazing how a Krogan keeps all that anger under control". 

This, combined with a higher evolved thinking and an extensive knowledge about human and alien psychology can lead to much fewer conflicts. At least those conflicts stemming from prejudice, fear and lack of understanding can be eliminated. 

So Synthetics can choose  to reject "understanding of organics", as can the Reapers?

[Volc19]

This just reinforces my idea that Synthesis basically means the Reapers win. We start making contact with other galaxies and see their non-synthesized ways as self destructive. Then we either make a new Crucible to synthesize them, which will likely be declined, or we start killing them. We assimilate or kill everyone in our path who values their destructive, chaotic diversity.

So, basically, we become the Reapers, the Borg, the Antisprirals, the Daleks, and the Cybermen by picking Synthesis.

[The Angry One]

Pacifien wrote...
I'm not sure what philosophy is vindicated. What philosophy did you think the Reapers have?

Organics are chaotic, organics and synthetics can never co-exist.

As far as I could tell, they believed organics were doomed unless the Reapers turned them into Reapers. With Synthesis, everyone didn't turn into Reapers in the end, and it appears the Reapers stopped trying to turn them into Reapers. That's a significant change.

They believe this because of the above. Everyone is now a hybrid, so now they can exist in peace because all differences have been removed. ()
Reaper philosophy = vindicated.

[mauro2222]

Wayning_Star wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

So the Reapers created themselves?

How the hell does that work out? Did they just will themselves into existence?

The Catalyst is not a Reaper...

the catalyst is "THE" reaper... with  a lot of ships to back'em up.

I think we are giving different representations to the word.

A Reaper is the big cuttlefish with pew pew lazers. The catalyst embodies the collective intelligence of all the Reapers, that's why it says the Reapers gave him purpose, and at the same time it controls them. The catalyst also created the first Reaper.

Modifié par mauro2222, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[Rhayak]

KingZayd wrote...


So the Reapers aren't changed by the greenwave themselves, contrary to what you were suggesting before?

"Change" doesn't have to imply removal. There is nothing to believe Reapers are brainwashed. They stop harvesting us because we're hybrids, but the green code is in them as well so they ARE changed somehow, by ADDING something to them.

Nothing of what they were is erased, i think. The same goes for us hybrids. We don't lose our identities just because our biology receives a green upgrade.

Luckily, that is also sufficient reason for the Reapers to switch behaviour towards us.

[Torrible]

KingZayd wrote...

Torrible wrote...


For example, the Salarians have always thought of the Krogans as belligerent, uncontrollable animals. Synthesis allows (it is voluntary, I supppose. One should not have billions of thoughts forced into one's brain) the sharing of thoughts, memories and  subjective conscious experiences, a voluntary mindlink so to speak. With Synthesis, memories can be digitised and neural-machine interfacing all too possible (note that Biotic implants are already possible pre-Synthesis).

Now a Salarian is capable of understanding how a Krogan metaphorically and literally 'sees red'. The Salarian might now think, "It's amazing how a Krogan keeps all that anger under control". 

This, combined with a higher evolved thinking and an extensive knowledge about human and alien psychology can lead to much fewer conflicts. At least those conflicts stemming from prejudice, fear and lack of understanding can be eliminated. 

So Synthetics can choose  to reject "understanding of organics", as can the Reapers?

Not all have to. It takes only a few who are willing to share their thoughts, knowledge and experiences for the peace building process to begin. For example, the subjective experience of having a Korgan outburst can be stored in data form and easily accessed by other species. 

Modifié par Torrible, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:16 .

[Baronesa]

Volc19 wrote...

This just reinforces my idea that Synthesis basically means the Reapers win. We start making contact with other galaxies and see their non-synthesized ways as self destructive. Then we either make a new Crucible to synthesize them, which will likely be declined, or we start killing them. We assimilate or kill everyone in our path who values their destructive, chaotic diversity.

So, basically, we become the Reapers, the Borg, the Antisprirals, the Daleks, and the Cybermen by picking Synthesis.

Well said