982 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

personally, I blame the protheans for all this controversy..lol stupid crucible anyways...blech!!

[Versus Omnibus]

The Angry One wrote....

Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

[DistantUtopia]

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuild.

Bolded what I disagree with.  I do agree that given what we are shown, the Reapers just stop reaping because there are no more organics to harverst.  There is nothing implied or explicitly shown that the Reapers are actually changed by the green beam of happiness.  They're already hybrids so what exactly do they gain?  As for the "useful to them", I also can't find any logic to support this (maybe starbrat just decided since Synthesis has happened, may as well help help the other races?)

[The Angry One]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

The Angry One wrote....

Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

Come on.

DistantUtopia wrote...

Bolded what I disagree with.  I do agree that given what we are shown,
the Reapers just stop reaping because there are no more organics to
harverst.  There is nothing implied or explicitly shown that the Reapers
are actually changed by the green beam of happiness.  They're already
hybrids so what exactly do they gain?  As for the "useful to them", I
also can't find any logic to support this (maybe starbrat just decided
since Synthesis has happened, may as well help help the other races?)

I did say may be. It's a hypothesis.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:41 .

[Rhayak]

The Angry One wrote...

Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

Because what Synthesis doesn't have is the power to change us for the worst. And i really mean INSIDE.

[Wayning_Star]

Stornskar wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

When Shepard asks what happened to the Creators? "They became the first true Reaper. They did not approve, but it was the only solution."

Ergo, Starchild is not really a Reaper if its telling the truth.

uh, I didn't get that memo..lol  I don't remember anythng like that in the end scenes, the kid explaining 'exatly' about creators,etc. He does, however, state "we" and "us" in the dialogue, so he's all the reapers in cute kid form.

Yep, that was added with the EC. The starbrat explains that the creators made him to solve the organics vs synthetics problem, and that the Reapers were provided to him by the creators to fulfill that goal. He then says he turned them into the first "true" Reapers (implying he gray gooped them) and that they did not approve

I seen'em didn't get that..I'll have to go back and check that one out  again. Especally the grey gooping part..rofl

[DistantUtopia]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

Well, as far as we know, it's not really clarified.  Yes, we could have free will to kill ourselves if we aren't happy.  However, EDI can also be seen as "way too happy" and another way of interpreting the Synthesis end is the "mind control" part where everyone is happy, no one really wants to "unsynthesize".  We can speculate all day on how things are unless word-of-god trumps us.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Angry One wrote...

THAT is the best you can come up with? Considering the things you have said to me?

 Even if you're trying to insinuate that two wrongs make a right, I can assure you that I had said nothing insulting to you at the time of that post. If you think otherwise, prove it. You asked me to do as much, and I did.

No, the first is not an insult.

What does it matter if YOU think it's insulting or not? It's not really your call to make, if the other person feels insulted by what you said, it's an insult.

It's the same kind of personal attack as the one you made. But again, you don't see it as insulting, because you're the one who said it.

You can justify it all you want, it's still chaos.

I'm not denying that chaos. But the end result is all that matters to them, and that end is order.

For your idea to work, it must apply to ALL organics. "the chaos of organic life"

Organics are the reason for that chaos existing. Some create it, everyone else is responsible by creating a need for the creation of it.

I have criticised BioWare's writing, I have never hidden behind it to support a point.
So again, the Geth on Haelstrom disprove your assertion. Which was wrong to begin with, since you're comparing a modern day laptop to sapient machines from the future.

Um, you're using their writing right now to support geth on Haestrom.

Also, I editted that part of the post. I'm pretty sure they don't live on Haestrom, but they just took up resistance to the quarians.

If organic brains are the limiting factor then improve the capabilites of the brain. How hard can that be for a Reaper?

Apparently very since they've never been able to do it by themselves.

There's a first for everything. (Now if only I could properly remember that quote by Admiral Xen about impossibility).

An example which proves nothing. Krogan brute force was beaten by salarian scientific innovation with the genophage.

Again, that was an example using strength alone, there are various ways synthetics are still superior to hybrids.

You continue to miss the idea that hybrids, by definition, have acquired the power of synthetics. That superiority is gone, because it's exactly what synthesis sought to accomplish.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:45 .

[Torrible]

CrutchCricket wrote...
So I've heard. Believe it or not not all bigots are retards. Some of them are very intelligent and quite capable of grasping that gays have no control over their inclinations. Doesn't stop them from considering gays an abomination that needs to be purged.

True, but a less than perfect solution can still be a good one. At least we can hope to change to minds of the more 'unthinking' bigots.

The underlined is key. You think people with deep-set prejudices or fears will be particularly interested in accessing those memories? Or that again they'll react the way you think they do when they know? What's to stop a salarian from instead saying "Holy ****, that's what they see? **** this noise we need to exterminate them NOW. It's a miracle they've been kept in check so long but we can't keep pushing our luck."
The overall point here is more important: either synthesis "improves" us but leaves our minds fundamentally the same or it doesn't. If it does you've just turned a bare knuckle brawl into nuclear war. If it doesn't you just violated all life by purging its current state without its consent. Neither is a winning scenario.

You made me laugh there. That's just pessimism isn't it? In the slides, we obviously see the various species working together for the greater good. Let's assume the preexisting fears are amplified due to Synthesis. What's to stop the Salarians from working together with the Geth (for example) to formulate a solution, to find ways to keep that anger in check without resorting to genocide. Higher intelligence + more extensive knowledge + better technology = solutions aplenty for many a problem. I mean Cerberus was actually able to bring Shepard back from the dead and that was before Synthesis, before the Reapers were willing to share knowledge that was 'harvested' (ahem) from countless cycles.

[Memnon]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

The Angry One wrote....

Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

So ... the choice is assimilate or off yourself? Wow ...

[General User]

Rhayak wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

Because what Synthesis doesn't have is the power to change us for the worst. And i really mean INSIDE.

If Synthesis can't change us for the worse, then it also can't change us for the better.  Technology always has been just a tool, nothing less and nothing more.  It can improve our lives, or make them worse.  It's how it's used that really matters.

[mauro2222]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

The Angry One wrote....

Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

Nice!

[DistantUtopia]

Wayning_Star wrote...

personally, I blame the protheans for all this controversy..lol stupid crucible anyways...blech!!

I blame the Salarians.  They used to eat flies, y'know.

[Wayning_Star]

DistantUtopia wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuild.

Bolded what I disagree with.  I do agree that given what we are shown, the Reapers just stop reaping because there are no more organics to harverst.  There is nothing implied or explicitly shown that the Reapers are actually changed by the green beam of happiness.  They're already hybrids so what exactly do they gain?  As for the "useful to them", I also can't find any logic to support this (maybe starbrat just decided since Synthesis has happened, may as well help help the other races?)

I thought that if chaos was removed the reaper(s) would cease with the recycling? Reaperships aren't all that bad, once you really get to know one...or would that be, takes one to know one?!?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Stornskar wrote...

So ... the choice is assimilate or off yourself? Wow ...

At least there is a choice. Compared to, offing everybody in the world without giving anyone a chance, in case maybe the change works out alright.


Okay, I need to stop getting so involved.

[Pacifien]

The Angry One wrote...
Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

And I don't think it will be as easy as the epilogue made it out to be, but I also think that Synthesis is a technological singularity which, by the definition of technological singularities, puts everyone in a state beyond our ability to comprehend. It's an easy out for the writers, but depending on how you feel about the concept of singularities, that's just how it has to be.

There's also the fact that some people wouldn't have viewed it as a total violation because, to them, it was the only way to end the war with fewest casualties, assuming they don't learn that Shepard had the Control option available to him. And perhaps they wouldn't care. The Quarians were already integrated Geth programs into their suits in order to facilitate faster acclimation to their homeworld, afterall. Kasumi had integrated a neural device into her brain. They're just a handful across an entire galaxy, I know. They're just examples to demonstrate to you how, when you personally cannot see how someone would accept Synthesis, others might.

Now Javik, yeah, he probably totally is with you. He's gonna start a rebellion against his new hybrid masters.

Sorry, that's my personal head canon. I'm going to assume you have no playthroughs that choose Synthesis.

[CrutchCricket]

Rhayak wrote...
Because what Synthesis doesn't have is the power to change us for the worst. And i really mean INSIDE.

Here's another thing people seem to miss or intentionally ignore.

It's not about better or worse. It's about fundamental difference.

You want to claim advancement, and higher understanding and reaching states of existence we can't imagine yet? Fine. But recognise that if you do so you will no longer be human.

Humanity is also defined by its limitations. And the undesirables, things like war, animosity, prejudice and fear are just as much a part of us as the good stuff. Like it or not we have light and dark sides.

Saying something will remove our limits and dark sides but will still keep us basically the same people is naive and nonsensical.

And advancement to beyond humanity is all well and good... for those that want it. I would want it. I would want to have limitless understanding and potential. I would want to escape my weak three dimensional body and explore the universe. And through Control, my Shepard does just that. But he chooses to. And he accepts leaving humanity behind.

Forcing a whole galaxy to leave behind what they were is something else entirely. And though you may argue that if advancement is good, advancement for everybody= best, keep in mind that cost is still ceasing to be human. You've "stopped" humanity. Deal with it.

[The Angry One]

Alright HYR, for the last time. Drop it. This isn't the place for this.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I'm not denying that chaos. But the end result is all that matters to them, and that end is order.

But the chaos is still part of the cycle, that's my point.

Organics are the reason for that chaos existing. Some create it, everyone else is responsible by creating a need for the creation of it.

Some have no need, and do not create, so they're not responsible and aren't part of this "chaos".
This is simply not what the Catalyst meant.

Um, you're using their writing right now to support geth on Haestrom.

*headache*

I mean, I don't say "oh that's bad writing I will disregard it!".
I won't even do that to the Spaceboy, the avatar of bad writing.

Also, I editted that part of the post. I'm pretty sure they don't live on Haestrom, but they just took up resistance to the quarians.

They maintain an outpost there.

There's a first for everything. (Now if only I could properly remember that quote by Admiral Xen about impossibility).

The point is you can enhance, but it still won't be as good as a synthetic mind.

You continue to miss the idea that hybrids, by definition, have acquired the power of synthetics. That superiority is gone, because it's exactly what synthesis sought to accomplish.

And I'm telling you that they still won't be as good at things as an equivalent synthetic.
You know how Shepard's a cyborg? Go tell Legion he can't upload the code and see what happens.

[Memnon]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

So ... the choice is assimilate or off yourself? Wow ...

At least there is a choice. Compared to, offing everybody in the world without giving anyone a chance, in case maybe the change works out alright.


Okay, I need to stop getting so involved.

My preferred choice is Destroy - both before and after the EC (though I did accidentally pick Reject the first time by shooting the starbrat). I would rather sacrifice a bunch of machines than unilaterally force a loss of identity and freewill (which is what my opinion of Synthesis is) on the entire galaxy

[Rhayak]

[quote]General User wrote...

[/quote]If Synthesis can't change us for the worse, then it also can't change us for the better.  Technology always has been just a tool, nothing less and nothing more.  It can improve our lives, or make them worse.  It's how it's used that really matters.

[/quote]


That is my point, really. When Joe the Human Marine in London gets shot by teh green energy, he stays Joe. He, his biology, GAINS the new green DNA. He is still himself, plus green.

Such "green" is reason enough for the Reapers to stop wanting to eat him. Yeah it sounds silly but i never defended the Mass Effect storytelling as being perfect.

Yeah of course there is the possibility that he might go mad, for religious reasons perhaps, and kill himself.
I have no idea how having green circuitry all over your skin feels. Perhaps you feel nothing, perhaps you are annoyed at it giving you off in the dark, who knows. There's billions of personalities.

But really, the majority of people out there just want to live. And now they can.

[Wayning_Star]

absolute thought: Saving a galaxy is much more complicated than destroying one,eh?

[Ryzaki]

Versus Omnibus wrote...
Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

...there's not enough facepalms in the world.

[Sarevok Synder]

mauro2222 wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

The Angry One wrote....

Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

Nice!

Yeah, I'm finding some of the rationale in this thread to be, disturbing.

[Rhayak]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Rhayak wrote...
Because what Synthesis doesn't have is the power to change us for the worst. And i really mean INSIDE.

Here's another thing people seem to miss or intentionally ignore.

It's not about better or worse. It's about fundamental difference.

You want to claim advancement, and higher understanding and reaching states of existence we can't imagine yet? Fine. But recognise that if you do so you will no longer be human.

Humanity is also defined by its limitations. And the undesirables, things like war, animosity, prejudice and fear are just as much a part of us as the good stuff. Like it or not we have light and dark sides.

Saying something will remove our limits and dark sides but will still keep us basically the same people is naive and nonsensical.

And advancement to beyond humanity is all well and good... for those that want it. I would want it. I would want to have limitless understanding and potential. I would want to escape my weak three dimensional body and explore the universe. And through Control, my Shepard does just that. But he chooses to. And he accepts leaving humanity behind.

Forcing a whole galaxy to leave behind what they were is something else entirely. And though you may argue that if advancement is good, advancement for everybody= best, keep in mind that cost is still ceasing to be human. You've "stopped" humanity. Deal with it.

You posted as i was writing, i will say this again.

Synthesis does NOT remove what we were. It adds to it.

And what i meant in my previous post is, that i don't see how Synthesis could lead us to a dictature, where consent has no value, just 'coz people didn't get to vote about it.

Besides, humanity as you mean it really seems like something you don't miss.

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

[CrutchCricket]

Torrible wrote...
You made me laugh there. That's just pessimism isn't it? In the slides, we obviously see the various species working together for the greater good. Let's assume the preexisting fears are amplified due to Synthesis. What's to stop the Salarians from working together with the Geth (for example) to formulate a solution, to find ways to keep that anger in check without resorting to genocide. Higher intelligence + more extensive knowledge + better technology = solutions aplenty for many a problem. I mean Cerberus was actually able to bring Shepard back from the dead and that was before Synthesis, before the Reapers were willing to share knowledge that was 'harvested' (ahem) from countless cycles.

And if you read my original post I accept the slides as signs of the galaxy rebuilding in peace... at first. But then the animosities I mention will spring up. And it will be less about solving problems and more about fixing blame. How dare you hoard tech asari, when the rules clearly stated share all? You would uplift the yagh, Salarians? Have you learned nothing from the krogan? You must be judged!

Of course every race will defend itself. And every race will use their newfound knowledge to defend their own point of view and their own integrity (everyone's the same mentally as before remember? Unless they're not in which case we're dealing with entirely different issues).
In other situations this might result in a few scraps, again just to clear the bad blood. But now, with every race having access to limitless power? You just escalated the conflict to mutually assured distruction levels.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:59 .