982 réponses à ce sujet

[DistantUtopia]

Sorry, had to chime in too...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Also, I'm 99% they do not live on the planet. I'm 99% sure Legion says in ME2 that they don't live on planets, period. There are some of them on Rannoch, but they are merely acting as custodians for the creators' return.

Legion says they don't live on Rannoch.  There is no specific dialog that says they don't live on planets as well. I'll have to play ME2 again to confirm that but you are right that they are taking care of Rannoch until the Quarians return.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The reason they are present during the mission is because they were aware of quarian presense and therefore brought a hostile response from off-planet (where they really live).

Again, the exact details are sketchy, but I'm pretty sure it was something like that.

Well, we can only speculate there was no existing squad already.  We do know a dropship or two did come by during the mission but we don't know if it was from off-planet or not (again, I'll have to replay ME2).  The wikia claims the following for Haestrom but as it's wikia, I'd take it with a grain of salt...

 It is not known how many geth are on the planet's surface: Spy probes face interference from Dholen, making remote scanning difficult.

[Memnon]

Rhayak wrote...

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

If my brain was put inside a robot, my wife and 9 month old son would not agree with this statement

[Wayning_Star]

DistantUtopia wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

Well, as far as we know, it's not really clarified.  Yes, we could have free will to kill ourselves if we aren't happy.  However, EDI can also be seen as "way too happy" and another way of interpreting the Synthesis end is the "mind control" part where everyone is happy, no one really wants to "unsynthesize".  We can speculate all day on how things are unless word-of-god trumps us.

edi is my bigges motive for synthesis, along with legion. Maybe some organic DNA splice will give them the empathy we may have for them..as actually "them"? The crucible is a tool, if we don't choose to use it as a weapon.

[General User]

Rhayak wrote...
That is my point, really. When Joe the Human Marine in London gets shot by teh green energy, he stays Joe. He, his biology, GAINS the new green DNA. He is still himself, plus green.

That's fine.  The point I was really trying to make was that Synthesis has no real benefits unique to itself. 

Such "green" is reason enough for the Reapers to stop wanting to eat him. Yeah it sounds silly but i never defended the Mass Effect storytelling as being perfect.

Innocent people shouldn't have to change who and what they are to stop someone else from killing them.

But really, the majority of people out there just want to live. And now they can.

Another "benefit" not unique to Synthesis. 

Modifié par General User, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:03 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Stornskar wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

If my brain was put inside a robot, my wife and 9 month old son would not agree with this statement

But you'd have such a large...........oh forget it.

[Wayning_Star]

Stornskar wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

If my brain was put inside a robot, my wife and 9 month old son would not agree with this statement

not to nitpick,(too much;) you're wife? Yikes!! Your son would still call you dad imho ;]

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuild.

Bolded what I disagree with.  I do agree that given what we are shown, the Reapers just stop reaping because there are no more organics to harverst.  There is nothing implied or explicitly shown that the Reapers are actually changed by the green beam of happiness.  They're already hybrids so what exactly do they gain?  As for the "useful to them", I also can't find any logic to support this (maybe starbrat just decided since Synthesis has happened, may as well help help the other races?)

I thought that if chaos was removed the reaper(s) would cease with the recycling? Reaperships aren't all that bad, once you really get to know one...or would that be, takes one to know one?!?

You mean like Sovereign and Harbinger? They weren't especially nice to Saren+crew, or the Collectors.

[DistantUtopia]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

If my brain was put inside a robot, my wife and 9 month old son would not agree with this statement

But you'd have such a large...........oh forget it.

But if your brain was inside a giant robot, wouldn't the brain to body ratio mean you'd have the mental intelligence of a dinosaur?  (yes,yes, I know. it's only part of the hypothesis)

[CrutchCricket]

Rhayak wrote...
You posted as i was writing, i will say this again.

Synthesis does NOT remove what we were. It adds to it.

And what i meant in my previous post is, that i don't see how Synthesis could lead us to a dictature, where consent has no value, just 'coz people didn't get to vote about it.

Besides, humanity as you mean it really seems like something you don't miss.

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

Let's talk shapes. Picture a triangle. What is a triangle? A three sided shape. Now add another side to it. What do you have? A super-triangle? No you have a square (or possibly a trapezoid). Did I remove anything from your triangle? No, I added to it. But I still fundamentally changed it, no?

People didn't get to vote on whether they want to "upgrade" from a triangle to a square. But they were upgraded anyway. Sounds like a consent issue to me.

[PeterG1]

What a cool discussion thread. Lots of good ideas and debate circling around. I have a few thoughts on this topic too.

I personally have a hard time looking and reflecting on the Synthesis ending (and all the endings as whole) without looking at the game from a meta- perspective. If I take a step back and look at the creativity and scripting of the endings (particularly now with the EC clarifications), I have a hard time believing, personally, that synthesis is some of intergalactic threat that's going to enslave free will and thought, ruin personal and creative freedom, and create some kind of borg mentality. From a meta- perspective, I don't think BioWare would have shown the green-eyed organics living in reasonable (post-war) happiness and have us believe that they were docile, controlled or enslaved. It's just not something that I can with any reasonable conclusion draw. I also believe we're conditioned, to a certain extent (both through the dialog with the starchild and the epilogue) to believe that synthesis is, in fact, the "super paragon" ending that best benefits the galaxy. But this only my opinion and that opinion is only concluded by looking at the creativity of the game from a meta- perspective.

But when I think about the implications of synthesis from a philosophical perspective, I don't think it's that bad either. Of course, being human and being mortal and organic does in fact have its flaws and we all have problems both personally and as a species and I think that sociological outlook defines us. But our machines and software aren't perfect either. And whenever we improve ourselves (find better diets, exercise, drugs, etc) or machines (software and hardware improvements, better AI advancements, etc) it simply shifts our paradigm on what we believe is good, perfect, right or wrong, and we move on to better improvements. In other words, nothing is ever perfect, organics and synthetics will always have problems (including personality and reasoning and logic and philosophy and lots of other abstract, complicated concepts) and we'll always continue to try to improve upon them. This debate over war-faring and peace and free will, to me, and within the ME universe, will or would be things that machines and organics would/will continue to debate and focus on as if they weren't synthesized. It'll simply be within the constructs of a different paradigm. One that (and I'm bringing us back to our world) futurists and scientists and physicists today say is absolutely impossible to foresee, but we can assume it can exist and we can survive and work through. We just don't know what it will like until we experience it.

So in regards to the game, and the implications of synthesis: yes, everyone will continue to be free and have their own thoughts and opinions both within their own personalities and in communicating with others across the galaxy, but these discussions and opinions and thoughts will be within a whole new paradigm and construct that is impossible to foresee or imagine. Even the game designers can't comment on what that is because they don't know either. It's a pretty fascinating concept though, isn't it? Exciting too.

[Cutlass Jack]

Stornskar wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

If my brain was put inside a robot, my wife and 9 month old son would not agree with this statement

Your 9 month old son doesn't agree with any statements yet. Unless he was enhanced through synthesis.

Your 10 year old son would think you were the most Awesome Dad Ever.

[Baronesa]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

If my brain was put inside a robot, my wife and 9 month old son would not agree with this statement

Your 9 month old son doesn't agree with any statements yet. Unless he was enhanced through synthesis.

Your 10 year old son would think you were the most Awesome Dad Ever.

And edge you to become a superhero

[Memnon]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

If someone took my brain and put it into a giant robot, that would still be me.

If my brain was put inside a robot, my wife and 9 month old son would not agree with this statement

Your 9 month old son doesn't agree with any statements yet. Unless he was enhanced through synthesis.

Your 10 year old son would think you were the most Awesome Dad Ever.

Hrm ... actually you're probably right. I still don't support Synthesis though

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Angry One wrote...

Alright HYR, for the last time. Drop it. This isn't the place for this.

You reap what you sow. Other people may be forgiving. I'm not them. I'm one vindictive little bastard for my own good.

But the chaos is still part of the cycle, that's my point.

No one is denying it.

The bottom line is this: the Reapers see themselves as bringing order to the chaos. There is chaos in them doing so but, to them, that's irrelevant.

Some have no need, and do not create, so they're not responsible and aren't part of this "chaos".
This is simply not what the Catalyst meant.

We DO need to advance. Collectively. As a society. So we're all a part of it. And THAT is what the Reapers mean by us representing chaos.



You make claims like these...

The point is you can enhance, but it still won't be as good as a synthetic mind.

And I'm telling you that they still won't be as good at things as an equivalent synthetic.

... and there's nothing to back up any of that speculation. It's just that, speculation. OTOH, I can say that we sought to make the changes that the catalyst expressly claimed synthesis would make, and that it appears to have worked based on EDI's epilogue.

Which comes back to one of the main points I make. Synthesis bashers are continually denying the actual outcome with LALALALALA NOT LISTENING! so they can carry on with their unsubstantiated negative claims.

Again, I call that being a sore-loser.

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Reaper ideal is to harvest organics, because organics are chaos and will inevitably be killed by synthetics.
Synthesis removes both organics and synthetics and replaces them with hybrids, as the Reapers are.
They no longer harvest because there are no more organics. The hybrids may be useful to them, so they help rebuild.

Bolded what I disagree with.  I do agree that given what we are shown, the Reapers just stop reaping because there are no more organics to harverst.  There is nothing implied or explicitly shown that the Reapers are actually changed by the green beam of happiness.  They're already hybrids so what exactly do they gain?  As for the "useful to them", I also can't find any logic to support this (maybe starbrat just decided since Synthesis has happened, may as well help help the other races?)

but they weren't on speaking terms..lol  I think most believe that the synthesis option overakes the human/organic qualities of the recipients.When in fact, the only way it would could work is that only half of organic being would be converted/adopted to synthetic values, some type of balance. Over all though, from the nature of the posts here, the consensus would be not to be absorbed for what ever reason. It's not about anyone/thing "gaining" so much as adjusting to each others existance without strife. But then, we've been know to do about everything the hard way. lol The game, really, gives the user little choice but to adapt(evolution?) The only way to adapt in the time frame given is to meld with the synthetics, otherwise, we face near total extinction. Even if we destroy the reaperships and catalyst, the apparent threat of chaos remains, or so stated by the catalyst who's been around a while. We can just say heck on it and walk away and let the strife continue, or we can destroy all non organics, and go cave man for a few more million years, or we try and control ourselves with the power and knowlege of the reaper at our/Sheppards disposal, implicitly trust Sheppard with that..for ever. Eventually we will have to deal with a terminator value set?

I thought that if chaos was removed the reaper(s) would cease with the recycling? Reaperships aren't all that bad, once you really get to know one...or would that be, takes one to know one?!?

You mean like Sovereign and Harbinger? They weren't especially nice to Saren+crew, or the Collectors.

[Torrible]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Torrible wrote...
You made me laugh there. That's just pessimism isn't it? In the slides, we obviously see the various species working together for the greater good. Let's assume the preexisting fears are amplified due to Synthesis. What's to stop the Salarians from working together with the Geth (for example) to formulate a solution, to find ways to keep that anger in check without resorting to genocide. Higher intelligence + more extensive knowledge + better technology = solutions aplenty for many a problem. I mean Cerberus was actually able to bring Shepard back from the dead and that was before Synthesis, before the Reapers were willing to share knowledge that was 'harvested' (ahem) from countless cycles.

And if you read my original post I accept the slides as signs of the galaxy rebuilding in peace... at first. But then the animosities I mention will spring up. And it will be less about solving problems and more about fixing blame. How dare you hoard tech asari, when the rules clearly stated share all? You would uplift the yagh, Salarians? Have you learned nothing from the krogan? You must be judged!

Of course every race will defend itself. And every race will use their newfound knowledge to defend their own point of view and their own integrity (everyone's the same mentally as before remember? Unless they're not in which case we're dealing with entirely different issues).
In other situations this might result in a few scraps, again just to clear the bad blood. But now, with every race having access to limitless power? You just escalated the conflict to mutually assured distruction levels.

It seems intuitive to suggest that we are basically the same (psychologically speaking) after Synthesis. We would retain the same memories. We would care for the same people. We would have the same desires. But wouldn't access to all that intellectual power and knowledge change our perspectives drastically? I mean, all the quarrels and strife we had before would just seem so pointless now that we have access to billions of years of knowledge and culture. Everything we ever desired for could now be seen as childish vanity. We could be finally free of all conflict (seeing all desires as weaknesses) but we could also end up with a god-like apathy for all sentient life. The points you mentioned would cease to matter. However, that's probably pushing the idea of 'greater wisdom though synthesis' to the extreme.

Modifié par Torrible, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:25 .

[SHARXTREME]

To answer the OP.

If Synthesis leaves no free will and agression, than it isn't a threat.
If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?
There is absolutely no amount of space magic "logic"to answer that.

[Rhayak]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Let's talk shapes. Picture a triangle. What is a triangle? A three sided shape. Now add another side to it. What do you have? A super-triangle? No you have a square (or possibly a trapezoid). Did I remove anything from your triangle? No, I added to it. But I still fundamentally changed it, no?

People didn't get to vote on whether they want to "upgrade" from a triangle to a square. But they were upgraded anyway. Sounds like a consent issue to me.

I'm sorry but life structure is too complex to express it with basic geometry.

If a triangle is added a side, it's subverted. It's not a triangle anymore. So that really doesn't go with what i mean.

In this regard, anyway, it would be more like.... coloring the triangle green! This way you have the paper, the three segments traced in ink, plus the color green. Still a triangle.

Yeah, Synthesis was not a democratic process. That stays.

But i think the benefits put it pretty much in the shade. Seeing Tuchanka flourishing again, with Krogans walking their babies around.... o yeah. attaboy, Shepard

[Baronesa]

Rubios wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...

If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?
There is absolutely no amount of space magic "logic"to answer that.

wat.

Last time I checked the Reaper threat was: Reapers reaping organics and destroying synthetics so the synthetics don't end up killing the organics that created them.

No organics and no synthetics = no reaping = end of the cycle = no reaper threat

But synthesis affects all organics NOW.

It does not and have no way to affect new organics on future garden worlds (not garden worlds now) on which live arise by abiogenesis. Those organics would be completely free from synthesis... what then?

[Ieldra]

SHARXTREME wrote...
To answer the OP.

If Synthesis leaves no free will and agression, than it isn't a threat.
If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?

The (admittedly speculative) logic goes like this:
(1) Reapers are avatars of civilizations of past cycles created by the harvesting process.
(2) As such, I would not expect them to do to other civilizations what had been done to them. That they are antagonistic and harvest other civilizations at all, that is the fact that needs explanation, not that they're not antagonistic any more after Synthesis.
(3) To explain that, the hypothesis "The Catalyst has subverted the will of the Reapers" came into existence, based on its statement "I control the Reapers". A process similar to indoctrination, only without the destructive effects and reversible, which allows Reapers' personality to be maintained while still being controlled.
(4) Since post-Synthesis, the Catalyst's objective of making long-term coexistence possible has been completed, the Reapers are freed and revert to their expected state. Which may not be friendly in all cases, but in general not antagonistic.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:42 .

[Wayning_Star]

SHARXTREME wrote...

To answer the OP.

If Synthesis leaves no free will and agression, than it isn't a threat.
If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?
There is absolutely no amount of space magic "logic"to answer that.

simple answer again: need

as far as free will is concerned, depends on the requiments of survival. Is survival worth the price of synthesis? The only thing needed to get the reapers on the side of organics is the ability to technolize without the threat of rival/competitve synthetic life forms.The only reason we didn't like the reaperships cause they cashed us out for DNA swaps. The only reason they did that cause we would fight and lose to synthetic sentience,as organics apparently created.

To build computers or not build/meld with computers..that is the question. Give me liberty or give me mnemonic cerebral cortexs!! (or both..)

[AngryFrozenWater]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

The Angry One wrote....

Personally I just don't see how consent is going to be held in high regard in a new order started by an act of total violation.

Because you still have a choice after synthesis is committed. If you want to comit suicide because you can't stand the idea of not being a pure organic or pure synthetic you have that choice. Synthesis isn't indoctrination.

As organics or synthetics you do not have a saying in synthesis. It is invoked without their consent. Therefor it is a violation of the right of self-determination. It also betrays Shepard's allies, who either wanted the destruction of the reapers or their defeat. Nobody wanted synthesis, except the brat who thinks it is inevitable, so synthesis is more like submission than a defeat. By pumping Shepard into the synthesis stream, and removing all racial differences between reapers, husks, synthetics and organics (who all have those green eyes and glowing patterns), it is believed that somehow the races behave better. So, maybe that is not indoctrination, but throwing Shepard's "essence of who [he] is and what [he] is" into the mix was meant to be mind control.

But the topic is about the inevitability of it all. This all happened as a solution to the hypothetical inevitable synthetics threat, which, according to those same synthesis fans, all of a sudden does not exist when I take it one step further and show a believable scenario. If, I assume that, there is still free will and there is no mind control then intergalactic war is likely because there may be dangerous synthetics and helpless organics in other galaxies. And that poses a threat. Can you image what happens when those horrible synthetics strike us first! It's inevitable.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:47 .

[UniqueNickname]

As far I understood, Synthesis results not in combining organic and synthetic, but also it creates some kind of empathy between individuals, maybe even short range telepathy, sharing the knowledge etc. but still something else than a hive mind. Since most conflict are based on lack of empathy and understanding (or lack of willingness for it) then Synthesis really remove the conflict between organic and organic, or organic and synthetic, creating a Utopia when everyone is able to understand anyone. Reapers have no need to harvest or harm the S-hybrids, because in their point of view, we are all Reapers and Reapers do not kill each others over petty disagreements. Same as Reapers had their personalities while still able to have some collective consciousness over it in a same time. So simply said, Synthesis forces Reaper society to everyone. 

When conflict between all races within the Galaxy is removed through this kind of understanding, but it do not remove aggression or free will, then it removed only conflicts between upgraded s-hybrids. Even if future s-hybrids create more synthetic, they will most likely create anything which fits to their hybrid standards to insure their will fit in their society (and created have no reason to rebel against the creators)

Then they might come into the idea bringing (or rather forcing) their harmony to not upgraded organic (and synthetic) life.

Modifié par UniqueNickname, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:49 .