982 réponses à ce sujet

[Forbry]

With synthesis all life (synthetics, organics, hybrids, whatever) will be just "life". Nothing more, nothing less.

[Baronesa]

Rubios wrote...
The game states that all life will be synthesis, period: no organics, no synthetics.

You can't make asumptions based on real-world science that is irrelevant in the context of a fiction game, if I use that same argument for things like eezo, mass effect fields or biotics the 80% of ME universe is just magic.

And in game if you read the codex (specially on ME1) you find some pre garden worlds and how the Council have declared them to be sanctuaries and that no one should land on them to give a chance to new life and civilizations.

It is something that DO happen.

I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

I'm sorry, but your non answer is just a deflection.

[CrutchCricket]

Torrible wrote...
It seems intuitive to suggest that we are basically the same (psychologically speaking) after Synthesis. We would retain the same memories. We would care for the same people. We would have the same desires. But wouldn't access to all that intellectual power and knowledge change our perspectives drastically? I mean, all the quarrels and strife we had before would just seem so pointless now that we have access to billions of years of knowledge and culture. Everything we ever desired for could now be seen as childish vanity. We could be finally free of all conflict (seeing all desires as weaknesses) but we could also end up with a god-like apathy for all sentient life. The points you mentioned would cease to matter. However, that's probably pushing the idea of 'greater wisdom though synthesis' to the extreme.

We're hovering around the same point but the thing is all that knowledge doesn't make a shred of difference unless we take it in. And by doing so we are fundamentally changed. I suppose you can argue that synthesis just puts all that out there and then we all choose to absorb it and advance. But then that seems to be going against the slides, which I think imply that everyone's at teh same level. Which is ridiculous because if it was a choice to partake or not, not everyone would choose to partake.

But even so, let's say it is a choice. We've all been changed with green **** but we're the same mentally as we were before. We have the choice to dig into all that lovely knowledge and ascend. Some do some don't. Don't you see the schism that would cause? You'd still have us vs them but now instead of species fighting, it'd be the transcenders vs deniers.
All with access to incredibly destructive knowledge and tech.

[Wayning_Star]

Baronesa wrote...

Rubios wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...

If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?
There is absolutely no amount of space magic "logic"to answer that.

wat.

Last time I checked the Reaper threat was: Reapers reaping organics and destroying synthetics so the synthetics don't end up killing the organics that created them.

No organics and no synthetics = no reaping = end of the cycle = no reaper threat

But synthesis affects all organics NOW.

It does not and have no way to affect new organics on future garden worlds (not garden worlds now) on which live arise by abiogenesis. Those organics would be completely free from synthesis... what then?

there is NO escape from synthesis, you will be absorbed. The very basic framwork of the entire MEU is affected, all new life will be from the beginning of the synthesis, the fly in the following ointment.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Abiogenesis

[CrutchCricket]

Rhayak wrote...
I'm sorry but life structure is too complex to express it with basic geometry.

If a triangle is added a side, it's subverted. It's not a triangle anymore. So that really doesn't go with what i mean.

In this regard, anyway, it would be more like.... coloring the triangle green! This way you have the paper, the three segments traced in ink, plus the color green. Still a triangle.

Yeah, Synthesis was not a democratic process. That stays.

But i think the benefits put it pretty much in the shade. Seeing Tuchanka flourishing again, with Krogans walking their babies around.... o yeah. attaboy, Shepard

Doesn't matter. I added something that fundamentally changed what it was I was adding to. I disproved your argument.

Coloring the triangle green is just aesthetic. It serves no real purpose. Are you saying synthesis did not add anything of substantial value?

Tuchanka can flourish without synthesis. And I'll let someone else discuss justification of the choice.

[Shepardtheshepard]

To me synthesis (for organics) means:

1. It doesn't effect people's memories and intelligence. Greeny glow stuff is purely for upgrades so people can now leap over tall buildings in a single bound, never get sick and not break bones easily.
But if it doesn't change people's personalities in any way, what's the point & how does that fix things?
 If people have same minds as before, then what's stopping the old "I think such and such"  "I think such and such is wrong."  "Oh yeah!? Let's fight about it!"
 So in this way, nothing changes. There is no peace. Shepard has forced a major change on the galaxy which only result is that organics are going to require more destructive means in order kill each other.

                                                                                               OR

2. It changes people's memories and intelligence. Greeny glowy stuff upgrades how people think, making them super smart, all agree with each other and never get angry.
But if it changes people's personalities in any way, what the smeg would we do that for and where's our free will?
 If organics don't have the same minds as before, then we've forced something terrible on them. They're no longer the individuals they once were. They've been made to change their personal views on everything. Not because of their own study and life experiances, but because out of the blue, some green beam of peace that they couldn't avoid hit them.
 Angry that some guy/girl was always raping your grandmother? Don't worry, synthesis makes it so you "understand" the rapist and now you're pals. Not only that, but your grandmother loves it too!
 Not to mention that intelligence & understanding in no way means peace. Knowing why Mr.X thinks captain Kirk is the best and fully understanding his reasons, in no way stops Mrs.Y from shouting Mr.X down about how Sisko is the better.
 In fact the ONLY way to have peace with increased smarts & understanding is stop all organics from having any personal views at all. Everyone must support this football team, everyone must have this film as their favorite, everyone must agree that Mass Effect 3 is the best game ever and the ending has no flaws.
 Either all that changes is that the jerks are now super smart jerks and still have wars, or the jerks aren't allowed to have free will anymore. Neither is good.

[Wayning_Star]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Torrible wrote...
It seems intuitive to suggest that we are basically the same (psychologically speaking) after Synthesis. We would retain the same memories. We would care for the same people. We would have the same desires. But wouldn't access to all that intellectual power and knowledge change our perspectives drastically? I mean, all the quarrels and strife we had before would just seem so pointless now that we have access to billions of years of knowledge and culture. Everything we ever desired for could now be seen as childish vanity. We could be finally free of all conflict (seeing all desires as weaknesses) but we could also end up with a god-like apathy for all sentient life. The points you mentioned would cease to matter. However, that's probably pushing the idea of 'greater wisdom though synthesis' to the extreme.

We're hovering around the same point but the thing is all that knowledge doesn't make a shred of difference unless we take it in. And by doing so we are fundamentally changed. I suppose you can argue that synthesis just puts all that out there and then we all choose to absorb it and advance. But then that seems to be going against the slides, which I think imply that everyone's at teh same level. Which is ridiculous because if it was a choice to partake or not, not everyone would choose to partake.

But even so, let's say it is a choice. We've all been changed with green **** but we're the same mentally as we were before. We have the choice to dig into all that lovely knowledge and ascend. Some do some don't. Don't you see the schism that would cause? You'd still have us vs them but now instead of species fighting, it'd be the transcenders vs deniers.
All with access to incredibly destructive knowledge and tech.

apparently, we must now fall victim to our own devious nature of creation? Curiousity killed the preverbial cat. But the flaw here is that we have knowlege of each others needs, as we communicate similar with the geth, so the need for deceptive practice to protect our known truths no longer apply. Fear not, lest ye be feared?

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Rubios wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...

If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?
There is absolutely no amount of space magic "logic"to answer that.

wat.

Last time I checked the Reaper threat was: Reapers reaping organics and destroying synthetics so the synthetics don't end up killing the organics that created them.

No organics and no synthetics = no reaping = end of the cycle = no reaper threat

But synthesis affects all organics NOW.

It does not and have no way to affect new organics on future garden worlds (not garden worlds now) on which live arise by abiogenesis. Those organics would be completely free from synthesis... what then?

there is NO escape from synthesis, you will be absorbed. The very basic framwork of the entire MEU is affected, all new life will be from the beginning of the synthesis, the fly in the following ointment.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Abiogenesis

what? chemicals that come together an form the building blocks of organic life will become magically transformed into organosynthetic life forever?

[Shepardtheshepard]

Wayning_Star wrote...
apparently, we must now fall victim to our own devious nature of creation? Curiousity killed the preverbial cat. But the flaw here is that we have knowlege of each others needs, as we communicate similar with the geth, so the need for deceptive practice to protect our known truths no longer apply. Fear not, lest ye be feared?

Didn't the Legion have this whole thing in ME2 about the other geth hiding stuff from the normal geth?

[CrutchCricket]

Wayning_Star wrote...
apparently, we must now fall victim to our own devious nature of creation? Curiousity killed the preverbial cat. But the flaw here is that we have knowlege of each others needs, as we communicate similar with the geth, so the need for deceptive practice to protect our known truths no longer apply. Fear not, lest ye be feared?

Why not? Isn't that always the case, even in this nonsensical organics vs synthetics thing? Our natures are different and our natures dictate that we fear and find threatening that which is different?

"Knowledge of another's need" has already been covered albeit under "removing prejudice". There is no evidence some people will want to cater to your need even if they know what it is because that is their nature. If you say no, but they're made to, you've got other problems.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:05 .

[KingZayd]

Rubios wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

Answer: Those new solar systems will be the home to new synthesis life.

How? We don't know because it is a videogame not a scientific paper, they don't explain how things work.

Do you really want the writers to develop a fictional physics model so the Mass Effect universe makes sense? Good luck...

So applying the same logic to destroy means all synthetic life will magically die as soon as it arises then? cool. Now we can be safe from both Reapers and Synthetics.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:06 .

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Rubios wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...

If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?
There is absolutely no amount of space magic "logic"to answer that.

wat.

Last time I checked the Reaper threat was: Reapers reaping organics and destroying synthetics so the synthetics don't end up killing the organics that created them.

No organics and no synthetics = no reaping = end of the cycle = no reaper threat

But synthesis affects all organics NOW.

It does not and have no way to affect new organics on future garden worlds (not garden worlds now) on which live arise by abiogenesis. Those organics would be completely free from synthesis... what then?

there is NO escape from synthesis, you will be absorbed. The very basic framwork of the entire MEU is affected, all new life will be from the beginning of the synthesis, the fly in the following ointment.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Abiogenesis

what? chemicals that come together an form the building blocks of organic life will become magically transformed into organosynthetic life forever?

yep, right down to the very molecule..those reapers are thorough..tough ****** said the kitty, but the milk was great!!

[UniqueNickname]

Baronesa wrote...

Rubios wrote...
The game states that all life will be synthesis, period: no organics, no synthetics.

You can't make asumptions based on real-world science that is irrelevant in the context of a fiction game, if I use that same argument for things like eezo, mass effect fields or biotics the 80% of ME universe is just magic.

And in game if you read the codex (specially on ME1) you find some pre garden worlds and how the Council have declared them to be sanctuaries and that no one should land on them to give a chance to new life and civilizations.

It is something that DO happen.

I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

I'm sorry, but your non answer is just a deflection.

Then in the end, all "upgraded" hybrids would probably agree on that new civilization will also need to be upgraded, because without a upgrade they will create synthetic which will destroy them. They won't like being upgraded, but it's better for them, isn't it? Hybrids and Reapers would agree on this, as they resolved "basical meta-physical conflict" already, everyone deserve a same harmony as they are experiencing, no matter if they want it or not. Reaper logic. After synthetis we are all Reapers and since we are all Reapers, we are all good pals ... but anyone not upgraded already, beware, you will be upgraded too, resistance is futile. 

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Rubios wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...

If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?
There is absolutely no amount of space magic "logic"to answer that.

wat.

Last time I checked the Reaper threat was: Reapers reaping organics and destroying synthetics so the synthetics don't end up killing the organics that created them.

No organics and no synthetics = no reaping = end of the cycle = no reaper threat

But synthesis affects all organics NOW.

It does not and have no way to affect new organics on future garden worlds (not garden worlds now) on which live arise by abiogenesis. Those organics would be completely free from synthesis... what then?

there is NO escape from synthesis, you will be absorbed. The very basic framwork of the entire MEU is affected, all new life will be from the beginning of the synthesis, the fly in the following ointment.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Abiogenesis

what? chemicals that come together an form the building blocks of organic life will become magically transformed into organosynthetic life forever?

yep, right down to the very molecule..those reapers are thorough..tough ****** said the kitty, but the milk was great!!

Wow. So the Starchild was just lying when it said synthesis didn't work in the past because "organics weren't ready". Apparently now, all Organic life is ready from the moment it exists. 

[Forbry]

Rubios wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

Answer: Those new solar systems will be the home to new synthesis life.

How? We don't know because it is a videogame not a scientific paper, they don't explain how things work.

Do you really want the writers to develop a fictional physics model so the Mass Effect universe makes sense? Good luck...

Well, apparently many people on this forum seem to think otherwise *sigh*

[KingZayd]

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

Answer: Those new solar systems will be the home to new synthesis life.

How? We don't know because it is a videogame not a scientific paper, they don't explain how things work.

Do you really want the writers to develop a fictional physics model so the Mass Effect universe makes sense? Good luck...

So applying the same logic to destroy means all synthetic life will magically die as soon as it arises then? cool. Now we can be safe from both Reapers and Synthetics.

Last time I checked synthetic life can't arise by itself, AIs are created, so applying the same logic wouldn't be aproppiate.

The Synthesis wave keeps changing all non-hybrid life into hybrid life, therefore the Destruction wave keeps destroying all synthetics.
Same logic.

[Forbry]

And all that crap about "space magic"... The game is already full of it from the start-go. OMG, for that you not even have to look beyond the characters... Do you people really think it is realistic that aliens would look like thát, if they happen to exist. That they all would look or act that much like humans?

Modifié par Forbry, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:21 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...
To answer the OP.

If Synthesis leaves no free will and agression, than it isn't a threat.
If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?

The (admittedly speculative) logic goes like this:
(1) Reapers are avatars of civilizations of past cycles created by the harvesting process.
(2) As such, I would not expect them to do to other civilizations what had been done to them. That they are antagonistic and harvest other civilizations at all, that is the fact that needs explanation, not that they're not antagonistic any more after Synthesis.
(3) To explain that, the hypothesis "The Catalyst has subverted the will of the Reapers" came into existence, based on its statement "I control the Reapers". A process similar to indoctrination, only without the destructive effects and reversible, which allows Reapers' personality to be maintained while still being controlled.
(4) Since post-Synthesis, the Catalyst's objective of making long-term coexistence possible has been completed, the Reapers are freed and revert to their expected state. Which may not be friendly in all cases, but in general not antagonistic.

Indoctrination has been replaced by something else.

You don't have the same choices as before synthesis, because Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is pumped through the Crucible's stream to make everyone happy. They didn't use James Vega for his physical fitness or Tali for her hips. Instead, they used Shepard's "essence" for only one thing: Mind control.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:20 .

[Wayning_Star]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
apparently, we must now fall victim to our own devious nature of creation? Curiousity killed the preverbial cat. But the flaw here is that we have knowlege of each others needs, as we communicate similar with the geth, so the need for deceptive practice to protect our known truths no longer apply. Fear not, lest ye be feared?

Why not? Isn't that always the case, even in this nonsensical organics vs synthetics thing? Our natures are different and our natures dictate that we fear and find threatening that which is different?

"Knowledge of another's need" has already been covered albeit under "removing prejudice". There is no evidence some people will want to cater to your need even if they know what it is because that is their nature. If you say no, but they're made to, you've got other problems.

We are attempting to argue from an impossible position here, as we don't know what it would be like to be part machine, so we can only assume, lest that deduce what was/will be felt/understood by/with instant communication directly person to person. It would be in our nature to understand, that is the basis for all bias. Mis understanding. Humans, no matter how stubborn or self centered, have intuition, they cannot escape it. Followed quite closely by compassion,eventhough programmed like pavolovs dogs , we will dis obey our own conditioning, will feel it. You stick instant communication on top of that, talk about grokking.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok The conditioning will melt away very fast, almost as soon as the messages comes in. Heck the internet is only a drop in the bucket compaired to that.

[Vortex13]

I don't know if this hap be pointed out but here is my take on Synthesis:

Synthesis, while obviously trying to be painted in the best light possible still has sacrifices associated with it. Shepard dying is the most obvious (s/he at least has some form of AI recreation with his/her memories in Control) but there are other issues. Issues like:

A. The elimination of free will in the biggest descision in the history of the Mass Effect universe. Whether or not the people living after synthesis are brainwashed to accept the fact is besides the point, in the act of picking this ending no other lifeform in the galaxy has any say so what-so-ever.

B. The ending suggests that immortality is viable for the galaxy now, but they can still reproduce. So you now have a society that can not die (naturally) and is constantly adding new members to that society, eventually there is going to be no more food (if they still need to eat, most likley considering they can still make babies) or they are going to run out of room and supplies in the Galaxy and will have to move to others like a swarm of locusts devouring all in their path. Such a senario would be possible in the other endings eventually in the far future, but synthesis puts that senario as the imediate future.