982 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

Wayning_Star wrote...
Heck the internet is only a drop in the bucket compaired to that.

Yep, look at how compassionate and understanding the internet has made people:lol:

[Forbry]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

And all that crap about "space magic"... The game is already full of it from the start-go. OMG, for that you not even have to look beyond the characters... Do you people really think it is realistic that aliens would look like thát, if they happen to exist. That they all would look that much like humans?

The anthropomorphism of aliens in Mass Effect wasnt too pervasive (we have Reapers, Hannar, Rachni and Elcor after all). More to the point, it's an entirely seperate issue and really doesnt have a place in this discussion. ****** poor writing was ****** poor, despite the willingness of some to gobble it up.

Even they áct as humans... but, you're right about not fitting in this dicussion (although in évery discussion about synthesis the use of "space magic" seems to turn up sooner or later).

[Wayning_Star]

Vortex13 wrote...

I don't know if this hap be pointed out but here is my take on Synthesis:

Synthesis, while obviously trying to be painted in the best light possible still has sacrifices associated with it. Shepard dying is the most obvious (s/he at least has some form of AI recreation with his/her memories in Control) but there are other issues. Issues like:

A. The elimination of free will in the biggest descision in the history of the Mass Effect universe. Whether or not the people living after synthesis are brainwashed to accept the fact is besides the point, in the act of picking this ending no other lifeform in the galaxy has any say so what-so-ever.

B. The ending suggests that immortality is viable for the galaxy now, but they can still reproduce. So you now have a society that can not die (naturally) and is constantly adding new members to that society, eventually there is going to be no more food (if they still need to eat, most likley considering they can still make babies) or they are going to run out of room and supplies in the Galaxy and will have to move to others like a swarm of locusts devouring all in their path. Such a senario would be possible in the other endings eventually in the far future, but synthesis puts that senario as the imediate future.

I found it strange that Sheppard was resurrected in the first place, I wonder who (really) was behind that, being is the Illusive man was indoctrinated( a term I think needed more development). Why would the reaper want Sheppard alive'n kicking if they wanted him out of the equation? Kind of strange for thinking machines as old as dirt...

[Wayning_Star]

I think space magic is fun, don't I wish everyone did?

[KingZayd]

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

Answer: Those new solar systems will be the home to new synthesis life.

How? We don't know because it is a videogame not a scientific paper, they don't explain how things work.

Do you really want the writers to develop a fictional physics model so the Mass Effect universe makes sense? Good luck...

So applying the same logic to destroy means all synthetic life will magically die as soon as it arises then? cool. Now we can be safe from both Reapers and Synthetics.

Last time I checked synthetic life can't arise by itself, AIs are created, so applying the same logic wouldn't be aproppiate.

The Synthesis wave keeps changing all non-hybrid life into hybrid life, therefore the Destruction wave keeps destroying all synthetics.
Same logic.

The game states that in the case of destroy organics will be able to create IAs in the future while in synthesis the cycle won't be necessary even in the future because all life will be synthesis, so apparently Bioware didn't use the same logic for both.

Why? Ask them... but it probably has something to do with Shepard adding his energy to the crucible's so the space magic is more "intense".

The Synthesis wave is also a one time thing, just like the Destroy wave. All life NOW is hybrid life. New organic life would be organic.

It never said there won't ever be a new cycle for Synthesis. The cycle ends, and then when new Organics arise, the Cycle begins anew.

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

I don't know if this hap be pointed out but here is my take on Synthesis:

Synthesis, while obviously trying to be painted in the best light possible still has sacrifices associated with it. Shepard dying is the most obvious (s/he at least has some form of AI recreation with his/her memories in Control) but there are other issues. Issues like:

A. The elimination of free will in the biggest descision in the history of the Mass Effect universe. Whether or not the people living after synthesis are brainwashed to accept the fact is besides the point, in the act of picking this ending no other lifeform in the galaxy has any say so what-so-ever.

B. The ending suggests that immortality is viable for the galaxy now, but they can still reproduce. So you now have a society that can not die (naturally) and is constantly adding new members to that society, eventually there is going to be no more food (if they still need to eat, most likley considering they can still make babies) or they are going to run out of room and supplies in the Galaxy and will have to move to others like a swarm of locusts devouring all in their path. Such a senario would be possible in the other endings eventually in the far future, but synthesis puts that senario as the imediate future.

I found it strange that Sheppard was resurrected in the first place, I wonder who (really) was behind that, being is the Illusive man was indoctrinated( a term I think needed more development). Why would the reaper want Sheppard alive'n kicking if they wanted him out of the equation? Kind of strange for thinking machines as old as dirt...

TIM may very well have been a little indoctrinated at the time, but he was still very much himself. He still wanted to stop the Reapers at that point, as he did for most of ME3 (although he wanted to stop them without destroying them).

[Forbry]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I think space magic is fun, don't I wish everyone did?

I do too

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

Answer: Those new solar systems will be the home to new synthesis life.

How? We don't know because it is a videogame not a scientific paper, they don't explain how things work.

Do you really want the writers to develop a fictional physics model so the Mass Effect universe makes sense? Good luck...

So applying the same logic to destroy means all synthetic life will magically die as soon as it arises then? cool. Now we can be safe from both Reapers and Synthetics.

Last time I checked synthetic life can't arise by itself, AIs are created, so applying the same logic wouldn't be aproppiate.

The Synthesis wave keeps changing all non-hybrid life into hybrid life, therefore the Destruction wave keeps destroying all synthetics.
Same logic.

The game states that in the case of destroy organics will be able to create IAs in the future while in synthesis the cycle won't be necessary even in the future because all life will be synthesis, so apparently Bioware didn't use the same logic for both.

Why? Ask them... but it probably has something to do with Shepard adding his energy to the crucible's so the space magic is more "intense".

The Synthesis wave is also a one time thing, just like the Destroy wave. All life NOW is hybrid life. New organic life would be organic.

It never said there won't ever be a new cycle for Synthesis. The cycle ends, and then when new Organics arise, the Cycle begins anew.

no, once the wave swims over an area, the affected matter changes forever after. New organics will share DNA/molecular traits with synthetic life. There would be no need for computers, as everyone would be part computer, as it were.

[Forbry]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

And all that crap about "space magic"... The game is already full of it from the start-go. OMG, for that you not even have to look beyond the characters... Do you people really think it is realistic that aliens would look like thát, if they happen to exist. That they all would look that much like humans?

The anthropomorphism of aliens in Mass Effect wasnt too pervasive (we have Reapers, Hannar, Rachni and Elcor after all). More to the point, it's an entirely seperate issue and really doesnt have a place in this discussion. ****** poor writing was ****** poor, despite the willingness of some to gobble it up.

Even they áct as humans... but, you're right about not fitting in this dicussion (although in évery discussion about synthesis the use of "space magic" seems to turn up sooner or later).

It's certainly a subject deserving of it's own thread (I recently watched a video where Richard Dawkins and Neil deGrasse Tyson talk briefly about the treatment of aliens in movies).

Too afraid to start a thread about it (and already kind of know where that will lead to), but it's definitely interesting stuff!

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

Answer: Those new solar systems will be the home to new synthesis life.

How? We don't know because it is a videogame not a scientific paper, they don't explain how things work.

Do you really want the writers to develop a fictional physics model so the Mass Effect universe makes sense? Good luck...

So applying the same logic to destroy means all synthetic life will magically die as soon as it arises then? cool. Now we can be safe from both Reapers and Synthetics.

Last time I checked synthetic life can't arise by itself, AIs are created, so applying the same logic wouldn't be aproppiate.

The Synthesis wave keeps changing all non-hybrid life into hybrid life, therefore the Destruction wave keeps destroying all synthetics.
Same logic.

The game states that in the case of destroy organics will be able to create IAs in the future while in synthesis the cycle won't be necessary even in the future because all life will be synthesis, so apparently Bioware didn't use the same logic for both.

Why? Ask them... but it probably has something to do with Shepard adding his energy to the crucible's so the space magic is more "intense".

The Synthesis wave is also a one time thing, just like the Destroy wave. All life NOW is hybrid life. New organic life would be organic.

It never said there won't ever be a new cycle for Synthesis. The cycle ends, and then when new Organics arise, the Cycle begins anew.

no, once the wave swims over an area, the affected matter changes forever after. New organics will share DNA/molecular traits with synthetic life. There would be no need for computers, as everyone would be part computer, as it were.

Then once the destroy wave "swims" over an area, the affected matter changes forever after. Synthetic life will be impossible.

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
I agree that it would affect all life now, but new solar systems are created, new planets with new life will still happen, and nothing on synthesis explains how that new life would also be greenified (*snort* bad pun)

Answer: Those new solar systems will be the home to new synthesis life.

How? We don't know because it is a videogame not a scientific paper, they don't explain how things work.

Do you really want the writers to develop a fictional physics model so the Mass Effect universe makes sense? Good luck...

So applying the same logic to destroy means all synthetic life will magically die as soon as it arises then? cool. Now we can be safe from both Reapers and Synthetics.

Last time I checked synthetic life can't arise by itself, AIs are created, so applying the same logic wouldn't be aproppiate.

The Synthesis wave keeps changing all non-hybrid life into hybrid life, therefore the Destruction wave keeps destroying all synthetics.
Same logic.

The game states that in the case of destroy organics will be able to create IAs in the future while in synthesis the cycle won't be necessary even in the future because all life will be synthesis, so apparently Bioware didn't use the same logic for both.

Why? Ask them... but it probably has something to do with Shepard adding his energy to the crucible's so the space magic is more "intense".

The Synthesis wave is also a one time thing, just like the Destroy wave. All life NOW is hybrid life. New organic life would be organic.

It never said there won't ever be a new cycle for Synthesis. The cycle ends, and then when new Organics arise, the Cycle begins anew.

no, once the wave swims over an area, the affected matter changes forever after. New organics will share DNA/molecular traits with synthetic life. There would be no need for computers, as everyone would be part computer, as it were.

Then once the destroy wave "swims" over an area, the affected matter changes forever after. Synthetic life will be impossible.

actually guys/gals, the term "space magic" is used in a sortof cop out stance, that all things being equal, nothing magical is possible unless it's magic. And yes, once the destroy wave is unleashed, it, from the logic of the reaperboy, destroys all synthetic life, but the reaper also stated that sentient machine inteligent life would again appear, and destroy all sentient organic life. We have no way of know how the reaper would know this to happen, unless they've experenced the same problem themselves? I was merely referring to the synthesis wave and how it transmuted matter to a subcellular/molecular level everywhere in the known MEU.

[Sarevok Synder]

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Then once the destroy wave "swims" over an area, the affected matter changes forever after. Synthetic life will be impossible.

The two waves could have a very different nature, that would explain why the synthesis one needs Shepards energy.
PS: The quote-monster is dead 

Special pleading, nothing more.

[KingZayd]

Rubios wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Then once the destroy wave "swims" over an area, the affected matter changes forever after. Synthetic life will be impossible.

The two waves could have a very different nature, that would explain why the synthesis one needs Shepards energy.
PS: The quote-monster is dead 

Congratulations on becoming a legend for ending the quote-monster threat. Now you can continue on that legend  by buying DLC

Shepard's energy provides the template for synthesis doesn't it? Rather than making it a permanent change?

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:57 .

[Wayning_Star]

the game that chooses the lesser of three evils?

[Sarevok Synder]

Wayning_Star wrote...



actually guys/gals, the term "space magic" is used in a sortof cop out stance, that all things being equal, nothing magical is possible unless it's magic. And yes, once the destroy wave is unleashed, it, from the logic of the reaperboy, destroys all synthetic life, but the reaper also stated that sentient machine inteligent life would again appear, and destroy all sentient organic life. We have no way of know how the reaper would know this to happen, unless they've experenced the same problem themselves? I was merely referring to the synthesis wave and how it transmuted matter to a subcellular/molecular level everywhere in the known MEU.

You know, I don't believe a damn thing a mass murdering, circular logic using, idiot of an AI says about anything. Call me crazy...............

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:01 .

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually guys/gals, the term "space magic" is used in a sortof cop out stance, that all things being equal, nothing magical is possible unless it's magic. And yes, once the destroy wave is unleashed, it, from the logic of the reaperboy, destroys all synthetic life, but the reaper also stated that sentient machine inteligent life would again appear, and destroy all sentient organic life. We have no way of know how the reaper would know this to happen, unless they've experenced the same problem themselves? I was merely referring to the synthesis wave and how it transmuted matter to a subcellular/molecular level everywhere in the known MEU.

Starchild said life would be changed, not every atom in the universe/the laws of physics.

A series of chemical reactions could still take place leading to new Organic life.

Modifié par KingZayd, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:01 .

[KingJason13]

Synthesis will absolutely expand into an intergalactic threat. How could it not?

Only a matter of time before the Milky Way Hive Mind decides to spread it's values to the Organic and Synthetic species, a like, from the other galaxies!

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...
To answer the OP.

If Synthesis leaves no free will and agression, than it isn't a threat.
If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?

The (admittedly speculative) logic goes like this:
(1) Reapers are avatars of civilizations of past cycles created by the harvesting process.
(2) As such, I would not expect them to do to other civilizations what had been done to them. That they are antagonistic and harvest other civilizations at all, that is the fact that needs explanation, not that they're not antagonistic any more after Synthesis.
(3) To explain that, the hypothesis "The Catalyst has subverted the will of the Reapers" came into existence, based on its statement "I control the Reapers". A process similar to indoctrination, only without the destructive effects and reversible, which allows Reapers' personality to be maintained while still being controlled.
(4) Since post-Synthesis, the Catalyst's objective of making long-term coexistence possible has been completed, the Reapers are freed and revert to their expected state. Which may not be friendly in all cases, but in general not antagonistic.

Indoctrination has been replaced by something else.

You don't have the same choices as before synthesis, because Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is pumped through the Crucible's stream to make everyone happy. They didn't use James Vega for his physical fitness or Tali for her hips. Instead, they used Shepard's "essence" for only one thing: Mind control.

Yeah, yeah. The tired old "if it looks happy, it must be brainwashing" argument. Because of course, if it's morally questionable, it absolutely must not have a good outcome. /sarcasm.

Every ending paints a *generally* good outcome. There is exactly zero evidence for any forced *universal* happiness. It's a complete asspull.

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually guys/gals, the term "space magic" is used in a sortof cop out stance, that all things being equal, nothing magical is possible unless it's magic. And yes, once the destroy wave is unleashed, it, from the logic of the reaperboy, destroys all synthetic life, but the reaper also stated that sentient machine inteligent life would again appear, and destroy all sentient organic life. We have no way of know how the reaper would know this to happen, unless they've experenced the same problem themselves? I was merely referring to the synthesis wave and how it transmuted matter to a subcellular/molecular level everywhere in the known MEU.

Starchild said life would be changed, not every atom in the universe/the laws of physics.

A series of chemical reactions could still take place leading to new Organic life.

the only thing that cares about(or imagine) the laws of physics is sentient life... the reaperkid also states that all "organics" will be affected. As the cutscenes depict,even the trees and stuff are transmutated. So the genisis must be total to affect all living sentient life forms. We are but a few random chemicals that happen to be constructed in a way that suits the environment we adapt to. How else can we imagine being anything else, unless needed to evolve? The reaper figured it's time we evolved, or maybe it was the threatening sentient machinery organics create in their own image that require us to..change?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...
To answer the OP.

If Synthesis leaves no free will and agression, than it isn't a threat.
If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?

The (admittedly speculative) logic goes like this:
(1) Reapers are avatars of civilizations of past cycles created by the harvesting process.
(2) As such, I would not expect them to do to other civilizations what had been done to them. That they are antagonistic and harvest other civilizations at all, that is the fact that needs explanation, not that they're not antagonistic any more after Synthesis.
(3) To explain that, the hypothesis "The Catalyst has subverted the will of the Reapers" came into existence, based on its statement "I control the Reapers". A process similar to indoctrination, only without the destructive effects and reversible, which allows Reapers' personality to be maintained while still being controlled.
(4) Since post-Synthesis, the Catalyst's objective of making long-term coexistence possible has been completed, the Reapers are freed and revert to their expected state. Which may not be friendly in all cases, but in general not antagonistic.

Indoctrination has been replaced by something else.

You don't have the same choices as before synthesis, because Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is pumped through the Crucible's stream to make everyone happy. They didn't use James Vega for his physical fitness or Tali for her hips. Instead, they used Shepard's "essence" for only one thing: Mind control.

Yeah, yeah. The tired old "if it looks happy, it must be brainwashing" argument. Because of course, if it's morally questionable, it absolutely must not have a good outcome. /sarcasm.

Every ending paints a *generally* good outcome. There is exactly zero evidence for any forced *universal* happiness. It's a complete asspull.

No, sir. I didn't make that one up. The "essence" stuff is based on what the brat tells us. If you believe in the brat then why do you want to deny the mind control?

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually guys/gals, the term "space magic" is used in a sortof cop out stance, that all things being equal, nothing magical is possible unless it's magic. And yes, once the destroy wave is unleashed, it, from the logic of the reaperboy, destroys all synthetic life, but the reaper also stated that sentient machine inteligent life would again appear, and destroy all sentient organic life. We have no way of know how the reaper would know this to happen, unless they've experenced the same problem themselves? I was merely referring to the synthesis wave and how it transmuted matter to a subcellular/molecular level everywhere in the known MEU.

Starchild said life would be changed, not every atom in the universe/the laws of physics.

A series of chemical reactions could still take place leading to new Organic life.

the only thing that cares about(or imagine) the laws of physics is sentient life... the reaperkid also states that all "organics" will be affected. As the cutscenes depict,even the trees and stuff are transmutated. So the genisis must be total to affect all living sentient life forms. We are but a few random chemicals that happen to be constructed in a way that suits the environment we adapt to. How else can we imagine being anything else, unless needed to evolve? The reaper figured it's time we evolved, or maybe it was the threatening sentient machinery organics create in their own image that require us to..change?

The trees were already alive. Nothing indicates the atomic composition of the bits of universe that aren't alive change at all.

How would any device change the laws of physics?

[Wayning_Star]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...
To answer the OP.

If Synthesis leaves no free will and agression, than it isn't a threat.
If Synthesis leaves free will then it doesn't end a Reaper threat at all.
Why would Reapers, Cerberus, humans, husks, banshees etc. suddenly become and stay peaceful if they have free will?

The (admittedly speculative) logic goes like this:
(1) Reapers are avatars of civilizations of past cycles created by the harvesting process.
(2) As such, I would not expect them to do to other civilizations what had been done to them. That they are antagonistic and harvest other civilizations at all, that is the fact that needs explanation, not that they're not antagonistic any more after Synthesis.
(3) To explain that, the hypothesis "The Catalyst has subverted the will of the Reapers" came into existence, based on its statement "I control the Reapers". A process similar to indoctrination, only without the destructive effects and reversible, which allows Reapers' personality to be maintained while still being controlled.
(4) Since post-Synthesis, the Catalyst's objective of making long-term coexistence possible has been completed, the Reapers are freed and revert to their expected state. Which may not be friendly in all cases, but in general not antagonistic.

Indoctrination has been replaced by something else.

You don't have the same choices as before synthesis, because Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is pumped through the Crucible's stream to make everyone happy. They didn't use James Vega for his physical fitness or Tali for her hips. Instead, they used Shepard's "essence" for only one thing: Mind control.

Yeah, yeah. The tired old "if it looks happy, it must be brainwashing" argument. Because of course, if it's morally questionable, it absolutely must not have a good outcome. /sarcasm.

Every ending paints a *generally* good outcome. There is exactly zero evidence for any forced *universal* happiness. It's a complete asspull.

No, sir. I didn't make that one up. The "essence" stuff is based on what the brat tells us. If you believe in the brat then why do you want to deny the mind control?

mind control is a bit strong, more like "mind change", as relative to the reality experienced. The reaper knows that mind control only works for short time, indoctrination is over rated in the game as it is in real time. Look at the illusive man, he was indoctrinated, but with a little sweet talk with Sheppard, ended that threat all together. In the absolute thinking of the reaperboy, a clean sweep approach was the only way to clean up our act. It's funy no one ever mentioned the fact that the reapers never assimilated the geth, only organics. They did, however utilize legion for some short wave radio work. Over millions of years, the reapers couldn't control any species, just come back and junk them out..until next time.

[Cutlass Jack]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

No, sir. I didn't make that one up. The "essence" stuff is based on what the brat tells us. If you believe in the brat then why do you want to deny the mind control?

Because one he mentions, the other you mention? For arguements sake, do you consider the reaper code upgrades Legion gives the Geth to be mind control? Or giving them tools for a better existence? Or something else entirely?