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[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



Apparently the creators of the Catalyst weren't interested in other galaxies, so his programming is only regarding organics in ours. I don't see why breaking the Reapers away from the cycle would make them want to go forth and destroy other galaxies, and I can't see any reason to think that. Extra-galactic invaders are something the galaxy as a whole should be considering but I don't think they'll adopt the "kill everyone, everywhere" approach.

Who was at fault doesn't matter. The Catalyst went against its original programming anyway, it said it forced the creators into becoming the first Reaper. You're not understanding me, if Staridiot is right and Synthetics will want to destroy all life, the Reapers will have no choice but to try and stop them rising up in other galaxies, an impossible task. It's "solution" was unworkable. Like I said, Staridiot didn't look at all the variables, its judgement is highly questionable.

[Welsh Inferno]

+1 Pacifun & Cutlass Jack.

[KingZayd]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

No you didn't read it. The Reapers "solution" only affects the Milkyway, nowhere else. By not taking other Galaxies into account, Starbrat has shown it's an idiot, who's judgement is highly questionable. Synthetics can rise up anywhere in the universe and come here later, to "prevent" that from happening, the Reapers would have to start a new cycle elsewhere. It would be never ending given the size of the universe.

Apparently the creators of the Catalyst weren't interested in other galaxies, so his programming is only regarding organics in ours. I don't see why breaking the Reapers away from the cycle would make them want to go forth and destroy other galaxies, and I can't see any reason to think that. Extra-galactic invaders are something the galaxy as a whole should be considering but I don't think they'll adopt the "kill everyone, everywhere" approach.

This is unknown. What the Reapers get up to between harvests is unknown. Vigil hypothesises that they're hibernating out there, but then he also believes that the Citadel Relay not activating leads to the Reapers being trapped in Dark space.

[DistantUtopia]

Apparently the creators of the Catalyst weren't interested in other galaxies, so his programming is only regarding organics in ours. I don't see why breaking the Reapers away from the cycle would make them want to go forth and destroy other galaxies, and I can't see any reason to think that. Extra-galactic invaders are something the galaxy as a whole should be considering but I don't think they'll adopt the "kill everyone, everywhere" approach.

Agreed, they probably won't go immediately on a "Kill all organics everywhere" but as there's no dialog anywhere which explains what happens to the Reapers after Synthesis (we have to speculate), who's to say some programming won't kick in if a rogue extra-galactic Synthetic race pops in and causes chaos?  The Catalyst still controls the Reapers after all in Synthesis.  Will he believe his old solution won't work and try to Synthesize the other galaxy too?  Or will he fall back on the old plan and create more Reapers in the new Galaxy?

[Cutlass Jack]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

If it happened once, it can happen again and elsewhere. Starbrat simply didn't take into account all the variables, but then again, we know its logic is flawed.

Just because it can but it doesnt mean it will. It is equally likely that some other galaxy gets along just fine with its synthetic creations. Hence, its not 'inevitable.'

As for flawed logic, I'm not sure humans should be pointing that particular finger at anyone.

[Nerevar-as]

KingZayd wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

No you didn't read it. The Reapers "solution" only affects the Milkyway, nowhere else. By not taking other Galaxies into account, Starbrat has shown it's an idiot, who's judgement is highly questionable. Synthetics can rise up anywhere in the universe and come here later, to "prevent" that from happening, the Reapers would have to start a new cycle elsewhere. It would be never ending given the size of the universe.

Apparently the creators of the Catalyst weren't interested in other galaxies, so his programming is only regarding organics in ours. I don't see why breaking the Reapers away from the cycle would make them want to go forth and destroy other galaxies, and I can't see any reason to think that. Extra-galactic invaders are something the galaxy as a whole should be considering but I don't think they'll adopt the "kill everyone, everywhere" approach.

This is unknown. What the Reapers get up to between harvests is unknown. Vigil hypothesises that they're hibernating out there, but then he also believes that the Citadel Relay not activating leads to the Reapers being trapped in Dark space.

Considering Reaper capabilities I see them perfectly trying to export their solution to other galaxies.

[Dakkaface]

KingZayd wrote...

As valid as saying people arguing for synthesis are saying 
"HURRDUURR I'm morally superior because I  picked green explosions, you degenerate."

I see fewer pro-Synthesis posters putting down other endings than I see people with vehement anti-Synthesis posters slamming anyone who picked green explosions as idiots and morally repugnant.  I have never told anyone that their choice was wrong, because every choice has bitter consequences and each choice is more or less attractive to different Shepards.  Every ending is valid.  Even if I feel that Synthesis came out of left field and was not well explained, I do not malign anyone who chose it, nor do I put down anyone who chose any other ending.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

No you didn't read it. The Reapers "solution" only affects the Milkyway, nowhere else. By not taking other Galaxies into account, Starbrat has shown it's an idiot, who's judgement is highly questionable. Synthetics can rise up anywhere in the universe and come here later, to "prevent" that from happening, the Reapers would have to start a new cycle elsewhere. It would be never ending given the size of the universe.

Apparently the creators of the Catalyst weren't interested in other galaxies, so his programming is only regarding organics in ours. I don't see why breaking the Reapers away from the cycle would make them want to go forth and destroy other galaxies, and I can't see any reason to think that. Extra-galactic invaders are something the galaxy as a whole should be considering but I don't think they'll adopt the "kill everyone, everywhere" approach.

It only effects organics in our galaxy? Why? But it not important. They will create their hostile synthetics in their galaxy.

Anyway, the synthetics from those other galaxies are coming sooner or later here in this galaxy, because the synthetics threat is inevitable. The reapers have to swarm out, because of that. To protect us all.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:26 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

If it happened once, it can happen again and elsewhere. Starbrat simply didn't take into account all the variables, but then again, we know its logic is flawed.

Just because it can but it doesnt mean it will. It is equally likely that some other galaxy gets along just fine with its synthetic creations. Hence, its not 'inevitable.'

As for flawed logic, I'm not sure humans should be pointing that particular finger at anyone.

Synthetics rising up and wiping out all life is Staridiots position, I'm showing that even if its correct its "solution" won't work. So you disagree with Staridiot that conflict between Synthetics and Organics resulting it the extinction of organics is inevitable, you've just made my point for me.

Logic can by employed correctly or incorrectly, being human has nothing to do with it.
 

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:27 .

[Pacifien]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
That last sentence is important. Shepard is chosen not because he or she looks good, but because the "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is important to be added to the stream. That means it has to have something to do with mind control, otherwise James Vega can be chosen for his fitness or Tali for her hips.

Also, AIs simply learn. So Infected Harby can learn to. That's how AIs change their programming. Besides Harby is now even upgraded. Who knows what he can do more?

You interpreted it to mean it will have something to do with mind control. Which I can see how; perhaps the Catalyst, being the Citadel as well, witnessed all those persuasion checks Shepard had done through the years and just couldn't ****ing believe one organic was that lucky.

But even back in the first game, Liara was calling Shepard remarkably strong willed. Shepard apparently had a strength of spirit that was unusual to the Catalyst.

I think it's interesting that your assumption if there is to be a problem with Synthesis it will be from the Reapers nature to be aggressive and destroy, when I don't think that's really in the Reapers' nature at all. The only reason why they come across as aggressive is because they had to be when the organics, understandably, didn't want to be destroyed and processed. The only reason why the Reapers wanted to process them was because they were following the Catalyst's programming. Synthesis breaks the programming, and if it doesn't, you yourself just said that AIs learn and can change their programming.

[KingZayd]

Dakkaface wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

As valid as saying people arguing for synthesis are saying 
"HURRDUURR I'm morally superior because I  picked green explosions, you degenerate."

I see fewer pro-Synthesis posters putting down other endings than I see people with vehement anti-Synthesis posters slamming anyone who picked green explosions as idiots and morally repugnant.  I have never told anyone that their choice was wrong, because every choice has bitter consequences and each choice is more or less attractive to different Shepards.  Every ending is valid.  Even if I feel that Synthesis came out of left field and was not well explained, I do not malign anyone who chose it, nor do I put down anyone who chose any other ending.

Probably because there are fewer pro-Synthesis posters.

I've seen plenty pro-Synthesis and pro-Control posters putting down destroy because the Geth die. I've seen plenty pro-Crucible posters put down Refuse.

While it's good if indeed you don't put down people because of their choices, you do accept that every choice has bitter consequences. This thread is concerned with discussing the potential bitter consequences of a choice.

[Pacifien]

KingZayd wrote...
Probably because there are fewer pro-Synthesis posters.

I've seen plenty pro-Synthesis and pro-Control posters putting down destroy because the Geth die. I've seen plenty pro-Crucible posters put down Refuse.

I've seen this as well, because while I'm pro-Synthesis in this thread, I've been pro-Destroy in others. I tend to bring a dystopian view to all endings, which puts me in an interesting place because I think the purpose of the EC was specifically to appease people who absolutely did not want to see a dystopian future in the aftermath of the Reaper war.

My biggest difficulty is discussing the endings with people who clearly dislike the endings outright, so they are anti-Synthesis, anti-Control, and they can be either pro-Refuse or pro-Destroy, but they hate those endings as well and only pick them because they had to choose. Then I'm not actually discussing the consequences or morality of the decisions, I'm yet again discussing whether or not the endings were well written and that the fans deserve a better ending.

That's great. I can't do anything for that person's discontentment, but I'm glad they decided to keep on sharing. No, I"m being sarcastic. I apologize. I probably shouldn't have written this post, it has nothing to do with Synthesis being an intergalactic threat.

[incinerator950]

Pacifien wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Probably because there are fewer pro-Synthesis posters.

I've seen plenty pro-Synthesis and pro-Control posters putting down destroy because the Geth die. I've seen plenty pro-Crucible posters put down Refuse.

I've seen this as well, because while I'm pro-Synthesis in this thread, I've been pro-Destroy in others. I tend to bring a dystopian view to all endings, which puts me in an interesting place because I think the purpose of the EC was specifically to appease people who absolutely did not want to see a dystopian future in the aftermath of the Reaper war.

My biggest difficulty is discussing the endings with people who clearly dislike the endings outright, so they are anti-Synthesis, anti-Control, and they can be either pro-Refuse or pro-Destroy, but they hate those endings as well and only pick them because they had to choose. Then I'm not actually discussing the consequences or morality of the decisions, I'm yet again discussing whether or not the endings were well written and that the fans deserve a better ending.

That's great. I can't do anything for that person's discontentment, but I'm glad they decided to keep on sharing. No, I"m being sarcastic. I apologize. I probably shouldn't have written this post, it has nothing to do with Synthesis being an intergalactic threat.

Don't worry, 90% of the posters argue or get off topic about the general subject of the endings anyway.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Pacifien wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

That last sentence is important. Shepard is chosen not because he or she looks good, but because the "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is important to be added to the stream. That means it has to have something to do with mind control, otherwise James Vega can be chosen for his fitness or Tali for her hips.

Also, AIs simply learn. So Infected Harby can learn to. That's how AIs change their programming. Besides Harby is now even upgraded. Who knows what he can do more?

You interpreted it to mean it will have something to do with mind control. Which I can see how; perhaps the Catalyst, being the Citadel as well, witnessed all those persuasion checks Shepard had done through the years and just couldn't ****ing believe one organic was that lucky.

But even back in the first game, Liara was calling Shepard remarkably strong willed. Shepard apparently had a strength of spirit that was unusual to the Catalyst.

I think it's interesting that your assumption if there is to be a problem with Synthesis it will be from the Reapers nature to be aggressive and destroy, when I don't think that's really in the Reapers' nature at all. The only reason why they come across as aggressive is because they had to be when the organics, understandably, didn't want to be destroyed and processed. The only reason why the Reapers wanted to process them was because they were following the Catalyst's programming. Synthesis breaks the programming, and if it doesn't, you yourself just said that AIs learn and can change their programming.

Wow. Someone who can discuss. Ghehe.

If AIs learn then we cannot control their friendliness or hostility, because they change their program themselves. The more advanced the AI the more complex it becomes to make it stay on one side. Still it is a part of the problem.

It is not only about aggressiveness. For Wrex in the OP maybe. But for Harby that synthetics thread is not hypothetical. He was designed and build to make an end to it. Once he finds out that there may be a threat somewhere else, he needs to at least find out. For our protection. These synthetics from another galaxy may arrive here one day. And then the whole circus starts again. The only ones who understand why he is doing what he does are we.

All because the brat claims the synthetics threat is "inevitable". All the endings have that theme build in, but only synthesis has a weak spot. Unlike control, the reapers are not controlled by Shepard. Unless you beleive in that mind control "essence"-thingie. Now synthesis fans do not like the idea of mind control and seem to wave away the threat I am talking about. I find that very strange, because that threat made them choose synthesis.

To prevent that from happening, either the threat does not exist, or there is mind control. But if one of those happen to be the other way around we are in trouble once again.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:04 .

[Heeden]

[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I did, twice. The idea that Synthesis = mind control has no relation to what we're told in the game. The idea that post-Synthesis Reapers will still follow the Catalyst's programming has no basis in the game. Going beyond that, the idea that they will broaden the scope of the programming they shouldn't be following any more to include other galaxies has no basis on the thing that isn't based on the game anyway.[/quote]
You can deny mind control as part of synthesis, but it is in the game.

Child: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic live into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.

Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who you are and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.

That last sentence is important. Shepard is chosen not because he or she looks good, but because the "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is important to be added to the stream. That means it has to have something to do with mind control, otherwise James Vega can be chosen for his fitness or Tali for her hips.[/quote]

That's quite a leap to mind-control, if that was an aspect I would expect a change like the Paragon/Renegade differences to Control.

There are a number of things that make Shepard a prime candidate for jumping in the beam;
He is part-Synthetic after project Lazerus.
He is the only known organic to have entered the Geth consensus.
He has (and can foster in others) an open attitude towards Synthetic life - "You are not bound by the hardware limitations of organics...you do not fear us," Legion, ME2.
He's the chosen one, or "Avatar of our cycle" as Javik puts it.
He's the only organic being on the Citadel.

[quote]Also, AIs simply learn. So Infected Harby can learn to. That's how AIs change their programming. Besides Harby is now even upgraded. Who knows what he can do more?
[/quote]

Yes, that's true, but it does not mean he'll decide to go galaxy-hopping on a mass extermination.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Who was at fault doesn't matter. The Catalyst went against its original programming anyway, it said it forced the creators into becoming the first Reaper. You're not understanding me, if Staridiot is right and Synthetics will want to destroy all life, the Reapers will have no choice but to try and stop them rising up in other galaxies, an impossible task. It's "solution" was unworkable. Like I said, Staridiot didn't look at all the variables, its judgement is highly questionable.

The Catalyst didn't go against its programming, it implemented it in a way the creators did not forsee.

Who says the Reapers have no choice? Firstly the Catalyst's opinion was that synthetics would wipe out all life in the galaxy, he didn't offer any suggestions about what they would do once that was achieved. Secondly if galactic society does come to the conclusion that an extra-galactic attack is probable there is no reason to assume the Reapers will go on a pre-emptive rampage. That is something for the galaxy to decide on using whatever mechanisms for governing they have in place. It's a story for the future. It's also something equally likely to be considered whatever the option chosen.

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Anyway, the synthetics from those other galaxies are coming sooner or later here in this galaxy, because the synthetics threat is inevitable. The reapers have to swarm out, because of that. To protect us all.

That could be head-canon for a paranoid-Renegade Control Shepard maybe, not really implicit in Synthesis.

[DistantUtopia]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Anyway, the synthetics from those other galaxies are coming sooner or later here in this galaxy, because the synthetics threat is inevitable. The reapers have to swarm out, because of that. To protect us all.

That could be head-canon for a paranoid-Renegade Control Shepard maybe, not really implicit in Synthesis.

Well, in Synthesis, we don't know what the Reapers/Hybrids will do if an extra-galactic Synthetic race comes knocking.  The endings don't really say how the Reapers are changed by the green beam so who's to say that Catalyst won't take control and send them off?

[devon c greenwell]

It may be short sited synder but isn't the simplest answer always the easyest? I know its a huge plot hole, but if starbrat pushing it downtown that mean that it could be true? If the reapers are synthetic and he controls them then hes getting what he wants. Now mane there are other galaxies and other citidels since the reapers arenfrom dark space and when there not kessin with our system there messianic with others. And if that the case then he offers that option to all who make it that far Wichita in turn means that the brat dose it on purpose. Don't know how big the whole reaper fleet is. We might only see part of litmus. They chose destroy, then. Let them starve out and kill each other. Control he kind of get what he wants a new reaper but losses his ability to harvest new from there. But synthisis he gains trillions of new assets and dosent have to worry about any more of his kind being destroyed. I know my thinking is flawed but if it only affects our galaxy and there are others like him wouldn't itnmake sense to dominate one galaxy at a time?

[Cutlass Jack]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wow. Someone who can discuss. Ghehe.

If AIs learn then we cannot control their friendliness or hostility, because they change their program themselves. The more advanced the AI the more complex it becomes to make it stay on one side. Still it is a part of the problem.

It is not only about aggressiveness. For Wrex in the OP maybe. But for Harby that synthetics thread is not hypothetical. He was designed and build to make an end to it. Once he finds out that there may be a threat somewhere else, he needs to at least find out. For our protection. These synthetics from another galaxy may arrive here one day. And then the whole circus starts again. The only ones who understand why he is doing what he does are we.

All because the brat claims the synthetics threat is "inevitable". All the endings have that theme build in, but only synthesis has a weak spot. Unlike control, the reapers are not controlled by Shepard. Unless you beleive in that mind control "essence"-thingie. Now synthesis fans do not like the idea of mind control and seem to wave away the threat I am talking about. I find that very strange, because that threat made them choose synthesis.

To prevent that from happening, either the threat does not exist, or there is mind control. But if one of those happen to be the other way around we are in trouble once again.

Again I could not disagree more. He claimed its inevitable if things keep going like they do. If you pick Destroy, you change nothing in his opinion, only delay it. If you pick Control you just take over his job for him. Saren and TIM were poster childs on why Control is a poor choice.

Synthesis is the only one that attempts something different. To change the game entirely. It doesnt do this by mind control, it does it by leveling out the playing field. It may fail, but its the only one that at least tries for something better.

Life in other galaxies has no bearing on that whatsoever. The Reapers would no longer be following the programming that led to their original conclusion. What Harbinger was originally created to do no longer applies. Could he do that anyway? Its possible. But its equally possible he develops a passion for Gardening.

My parents created me to be a lawyer, and yet I became a pirate. I know my mom wanted to think Mind Control was responsible for me getting that gold hoop earring...but sometimes its just Free will. And the Rum and Wenches.

[savionen]

^ Under the assumption that synthetics will kill organics. But there's no proof of that, except for the Catalyst's word, in the last 2 minutes of the game.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


The Catalyst didn't go against its programming, it implemented it in a way the creators did not forsee.

Who says the Reapers have no choice? Firstly the Catalyst's opinion was that synthetics would wipe out all life in the galaxy, he didn't offer any suggestions about what they would do once that was achieved. Secondly if galactic society does come to the conclusion that an extra-galactic attack is probable there is no reason to assume the Reapers will go on a pre-emptive rampage. That is something for the galaxy to decide on using whatever mechanisms for governing they have in place. It's a story for the future. It's also something equally likely to be considered whatever the option chosen.

Yes, they gave it parameters and it broke them. I very much doubt they had being Reaperised in mind when they created it to protect against Synthetics. 

You're still not getting it, if the Staridiot is right, Synthetics will come here eventually, they want to destroy all life according to it. Where did it say just in the Milkyway, or their own home Galaxy if they come from elsewhere? So whether the Reapers go looking for them, or they come looking for us, doesn't matter, conflict will be inevitable. Given their past history, I'd bet they go on a pointless rampage, pointless in that it will be impossible to police the whole universe, the "solution" was doomed to failure from the beginning. Starbrats logic is flawed no matter how you look at it, so anybody who takes its word on anything is delusional.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:51 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Starbrats logic is flawed no matter how you look at it, so why anybody who takes its word on anything is deluded.

So you picked Reject then? Because thats the only option that doesnt accept his word that those buttons do exactly what they say they do.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wow. Someone who can discuss. Ghehe.

If AIs learn then we cannot control their friendliness or hostility, because they change their program themselves. The more advanced the AI the more complex it becomes to make it stay on one side. Still it is a part of the problem.

It is not only about aggressiveness. For Wrex in the OP maybe. But for Harby that synthetics thread is not hypothetical. He was designed and build to make an end to it. Once he finds out that there may be a threat somewhere else, he needs to at least find out. For our protection. These synthetics from another galaxy may arrive here one day. And then the whole circus starts again. The only ones who understand why he is doing what he does are we.

All because the brat claims the synthetics threat is "inevitable". All the endings have that theme build in, but only synthesis has a weak spot. Unlike control, the reapers are not controlled by Shepard. Unless you beleive in that mind control "essence"-thingie. Now synthesis fans do not like the idea of mind control and seem to wave away the threat I am talking about. I find that very strange, because that threat made them choose synthesis.

To prevent that from happening, either the threat does not exist, or there is mind control. But if one of those happen to be the other way around we are in trouble once again.

Again I could not disagree more. He claimed its inevitable if things keep going like they do. If you pick Destroy, you change nothing in his opinion, only delay it. If you pick Control you just take over his job for him. Saren and TIM were poster childs on why Control is a poor choice.

Synthesis is the only one that attempts something different. To change the game entirely. It doesnt do this by mind control, it does it by leveling out the playing field. It may fail, but its the only one that at least tries for something better.

Life in other galaxies has no bearing on that whatsoever. The Reapers would no longer be following the programming that led to their original conclusion. What Harbinger was originally created to do no longer applies. Could he do that anyway? Its possible. But its equally possible he develops a passion for Gardening.

My parents created me to be a lawyer, and yet I became a pirate. I know my mom wanted to think Mind Control was responsible for me getting that gold hoop earring...but sometimes its just Free will. And the Rum and Wenches.

That would mean that Harby has no free will. Harby can think for himself. So, why should Harby be shackled? That only happens in control, Jack.

Edit 1: Besides, the threat will be arriving from outside the galaxy sooner or later, because their organics create their synthetics. And synthetics are supposed to be a inevitable threat. Harby has to act.

Edit 2: Synthesis fans, when I read their threads, also believe in a technical singularity and bring that up as an argument in support for the brats hypothetical threat. That singularity will not stop at a galaxy. By definition it engulfs the entire universe. A controlled one is called the Omega Point theory as envisioned by physicists like David Deutsch.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:57 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Starbrats logic is flawed no matter how you look at it, so why anybody who takes its word on anything is deluded.

So you picked Reject then? Because thats the only option that doesnt accept his word that those buttons do exactly what they say they do.

Well, I didn't care what its reasoning was, or what it said. Its logic was flawed and countless trillions paid for its stupidity with their lives, I destroyed it. And consider, it really didn't seem to want you to pick destroy, and in the reject ending the species of that cycle destroyed it anyway.