982 réponses à ce sujet

[DistantUtopia]

savionen wrote...

^ Under the assumption that synthetics will kill organics. But there's no proof of that, except for the Catalyst's word, in the last 2 minutes of the game.

True, we only have 2 instances where Synthetics were killing organics completely:

1.) Catalyst
2.) Javik - The Metacon war.

Other cycles are never explained.  The catalyst is started off the assumption that Synthetics will kill Organics on a single cycle; it's own and never thought to change it's behavior.  We don't know what happened on the other 40,000+ cycles before us.

Again, too many variables and open questions to answer...so speculations for everyone!

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Yes, they gave it parameters and it broke them. I very much doubt they had being Reaperised in mind when they created it to protect against Synthetics.

They either created it without sufficient parameters or they did not understand how its view of the universe would alter how those parameters are perceived.

It's like Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics - the first one states that a robot "May not harm a human being or, through inaction. allow a human being to come to harm". However as robots advance in complexity their understanding of the universe deepened and they realised an unintended higher law - the "Zeroth" law - which allowed them to break the first law and harm humans if it was for the benefit of humanity as a whole. There was later a theoretical minus-one law which stated robots could harm humanity if it was for the benefit of sentient life (including the robots themselves).

You're still not getting it, if the Staridiot is right, Synthetics will come here eventually, they want to destroy all life according to it. Where did it say just in the Milkyway, or their own home Galaxy if they come from elsewhere? So whether the Reapers go looking for them, or they come looking for us, doesn't matter, conflict will be inevitable. Given their past history, I'd bet they go on a pointless rampage, pointless in that it will be impossible to police the whole universe, the "solution" was doomed to failure from the beginning. Starbrats logic is flawed no matter how you look at it, so why anybody who takes its word on anything is deluded.

No, the Catalyst is concerned about the relationship between creator and created. Yes it is possible something from another galaxy would come here, this is not part of the problem the Catalyst was created to mediate. The Reapers only have a history of violence because they were created shackled to the Catalyst's cycle. After Synthesis they become an integrated part of society, and it is up to society as a whole to consider the potential threat.

[Cutlass Jack]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Starbrats logic is flawed no matter how you look at it, so why anybody who takes its word on anything is deluded.

So you picked Reject then? Because thats the only option that doesnt accept his word that those buttons do exactly what they say they do.

Well, I didn't care what its reasoning was, or what it said. Its logic was flawed and countless trillions paid for its stupidity with their lives, I destroyed it. And consider, it really didn't seem to want you to pick destroy, and in the reject ending the species of that cycle destroyed it anyway.

Then you're equally 'deluded' as someone who picked the other choices. You accepted at least some of what he said as the truth.

Its something of a time honored trick to make it look like you don't want someone to do something so they will do it. That Red button could destroy the Reapers...or it could turn the Crucible into a galaxy wide indoctrination ray. Surprise!

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


They either created it without sufficient parameters or they did not understand how its view of the universe would alter how those parameters are perceived.

It's like Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics - the first one states that a robot "May not harm a human being or, through inaction. allow a human being to come to harm". However as robots advance in complexity their understanding of the universe deepened and they realised an unintended higher law - the "Zeroth" law - which allowed them to break the first law and harm humans if it was for the benefit of humanity as a whole. There was later a theoretical minus-one law which stated robots could harm humanity if it was for the benefit of sentient life (including the robots themselves).



No, the Catalyst is concerned about the relationship between creator and created. Yes it is possible something from another galaxy would come here, this is not part of the problem the Catalyst was created to mediate. The Reapers only have a history of violence because they were created shackled to the Catalyst's cycle. After Synthesis they become an integrated part of society, and it is up to society as a whole to consider the potential threat.

It doesn't matter what it was created to do. Its "solution" didn't take into account all the variables, meaning it was doomed to failure. The Synthetics from outside are not affected by Synthesis and if Staridiot is right about their nature, will come here and kill everything. Its "solution" wasn't workable, and had it half a brain, it would have abandoned it.

[DistantUtopia]

Heeden wrote...

No, the Catalyst is concerned about the relationship between creator and created. Yes it is possible something from another galaxy would come here, this is not part of the problem the Catalyst was created to mediate. The Reapers only have a history of violence because they were created shackled to the Catalyst's cycle. After Synthesis they become an integrated part of society, and it is up to society as a whole to consider the potential threat.

Is this explained in the EC? I'm gonna have to replay that scene...

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

It doesn't matter what it was created to do. Its "solution" didn't take into account all the variables, meaning it was doomed to failure. The Synthetics from outside are not affected by Synthesis and if Staridiot is right about their nature, will come here and kill everything. Its "solution" wasn't workable, and had it half a brain, it would have abandoned it.

The Catalyst's problem is to do with the relationship between creator and created, at no point does he suggest he has evidence that once synthetics have de-organicated a galaxy they will head to the next. That is not something he can have evidence for (unless he has been fending off synthetics from other galaxies in which case we all owe him our lives).

The Catalyst's solution was workable for millions, possibly billions of years. When it became unworkable he did abandon it, there was a whole scene with Shepard where you get to choose the new solution.

[Sarevok Synder]

Cutlass Jack wrote...


Then you're equally 'deluded' as someone who picked the other choices. You accepted at least some of what he said as the truth.

Its something of a time honored trick to make it look like you don't want someone to do something so they will do it. That Red button could destroy the Reapers...or it could turn the Crucible into a galaxy wide indoctrination ray. Surprise!

Actually no, the best way to lie is to be economical with the truth. I didn't accept anything it said, if there was a way to put an end to its ridiculous existence, I was acting on it. And considering you don't accept its completely bald assertion that Synthetics will inevitably wipe out organics, why are you defending it?

[Cutlass Jack]

DistantUtopia wrote...

Heeden wrote...

No, the Catalyst is concerned about the relationship between creator and created. Yes it is possible something from another galaxy would come here, this is not part of the problem the Catalyst was created to mediate. The Reapers only have a history of violence because they were created shackled to the Catalyst's cycle. After Synthesis they become an integrated part of society, and it is up to society as a whole to consider the potential threat.

Is this explained in the EC? I'm gonna have to replay that scene...

Its shown. The Reapers get jobs with Habitat for Humanity.

[Kenshen]

I doubt other galaxies near the Milky Way would have much to worry about. 25,000 light years is the closest and that is not just an over night trip. However this topic certainly could be applied to new forms of life that will evolve over time in the Milky Way. Someone else mentioned it in previous post is how would that new life be treated. Left alone to grow and become the new chaos or "invited" to the new order per say.

Modifié par aryon69, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:04 .

[Heeden]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Its shown. The Reapers get jobs with Habitat for Humanity.

Then we all sit around a camp-fire and they tell us stories of ages gone by before we ride off on our unicorns.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


The Catalyst's problem is to do with the relationship between creator and created, at no point does he suggest he has evidence that once synthetics have de-organicated a galaxy they will head to the next. That is not something he can have evidence for (unless he has been fending off synthetics from other galaxies in which case we all owe him our lives).

The Catalyst's solution was workable for millions, possibly billions of years. When it became unworkable he did abandon it, there was a whole scene with Shepard where you get to choose the new solution.

If that's true, then why wouldn't the Synthetics stop after they destroyed their creators? Why wouldn't they just leave all the organic species in the Galaxy that didn't create them alone? If they only wipe out their creators, then there will be no need for his solution anyway. No, he absolutely suggests they will wipe out all organic life, and if that's their sole motivation there is no reason for them to stop with their own home galaxy.

His solution was unworkable from the beginning, he abandoned it about a billion years too late.

[Memnon]

I still haven't seen an answer - granted, this thread is pretty long now and I may have missed it, but what happens when the new greenies encounter organic life? Does the cycle begin again?

Modifié par Stornskar, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:16 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Actually no, the best way to lie is to be economical with the truth. I didn't accept anything it said, if there was a way to put an end to its ridiculous existence, I was acting on it. And considering you don't accept its completely bald assertion that Synthetics will inevitably wipe out organics, why are you defending it?

I'm defending all options as being equally plausible/implausible. Either you those buttons do what he says they will or you don't. So calling someone deluded because they picked a button when you did the same is silly. You took the same roll of the dice as anyone else.

Personally speaking, I don't believe that anything is inevitable. And further I believe all three options are equally silly. But if I were to accept the buttons do exactly what it says they will, then Synth is the only choice presented that even has a chance of breaking the Cycle of Stupid.

What other organics/synthetics are doing over in their own galaxy has absolutely no bearing on that decision.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

If that's true, then why wouldn't the Synthetics stop after they destroyed their creators? Why wouldn't they just leave all the organic species in the Galaxy that didn't create them alone? If they only wipe out their creators, then there will be no need for his solution anyway. No, he absolutely suggests they will wipe out all organic life, and if that's their sole motivation there is no reason for them to stop with their own home galaxy.

Organics seek perfection through technology, but in order to achieve this they must create technology that exceeds themselves. Organics fear this - it is one of the few things that unite all the races of the galaxy, the idea that AI is bad. Shepard seems to be the only one immune to this fear, a fact noted by Legion. The fear leads to conflict, the conflict is won by the AI, the organics cease to exist.

Either the Catalyst or his creators witnessed this enough times to believe it is an absolute fact of organic life. Maybe they jumped to the wrong conclusion or maybe they were right. It still doesn't mean synthetics will hike all the way from another galaxy to arbitarilly kill everything.

His solution was unworkable from the beginning, he abandoned it about a billion years too late.

His solution was quite workable and implemented for all that time, he abandoned it when it was proven to be broken.

[Memnon]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I'm defending all options as being equally plausible/implausible. Either you those buttons do what he says they will or you don't. So calling someone deluded because they picked a button when you did the same is silly. You took the same roll of the dice as anyone else.

Personally speaking, I don't believe that anything is inevitable. And further I believe all three options are equally silly. But if I were to accept the buttons do exactly what it says they will, then Synth is the only choice presented that even has a chance of breaking the Cycle of Stupid.

What other organics/synthetics are doing over in their own galaxy has absolutely no bearing on that decision.

You don't think Destroy breaks the cycle?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Off-topic: I saw someone mention the three or four Robotic Laws...

The 3 laws really do not have much practical use. You could also dream up some other practical ones, like:
1. A robot will not harm authorized Government personnel but will terminate intruders with extreme prejudice.
2. A robot will obey the orders of authorized personnel except where such orders conflict with the Third Law.
3. A robot will guard its own existence with lethal antipersonnel weaponry, because a robot is bloody expensive.
Anyway, the science that takes care of that is called Friendly AI and it is been critisized, because it is very hard to control real AI. If one reaches true AI then it cannot be forced what to think, because an AI learns and changes its own "software".

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:31 .

[Heeden]

Stornskar wrote...
You don't think Destroy breaks the cycle?

Impropely handled the post-Destroy galaxy could lead to a repetition of events that led to the construction of the Catalyst in the first place. It is possible a future-race could create an AI to counter this which comes to the same conclusion as the Catalyst but in my ending Shepard is dead-set on making sure we create and befriend AI as equal partners in order to move towards our own version of Synthesis (also hoping to repair the Geth and EDI).

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


Organics seek perfection through technology, but in order to achieve this they must create technology that exceeds themselves. Organics fear this - it is one of the few things that unite all the races of the galaxy, the idea that AI is bad. Shepard seems to be the only one immune to this fear, a fact noted by Legion. The fear leads to conflict, the conflict is won by the AI, the organics cease to exist.

Either the Catalyst or his creators witnessed this enough times to believe it is an absolute fact of organic life. Maybe they jumped to the wrong conclusion or maybe they were right. It still doesn't mean synthetics will hike all the way from another galaxy to arbitarilly kill everything.

His solution was quite workable and implemented for all that time, he abandoned it when it was proven to be broken.

No, it doesn't mean they will. It's Staridiot contention that they will wipe out all life. The likely hood of an aggressive race of Synthetics that's been advancing for hundreds of millions of years staying in their home Galaxy is pretty small. In this case his "solution" fails. Yes they could have jumped to the wrong conclusion meaning his "solution" was a failure anyway.

The reason it worked for all that time was (A) He got lucky and these Synthetic psychos didn't find us yet, or; ( He's wrong and Synthetics don't want to wipe out all life.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:39 .

[Memnon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Off-topic: I saw someone mention the three or four Robotic Laws...

The 3 laws really do not have much practical use. You could also dream up some other practical ones, like:
1. A robot will not harm authorized Government personnel but will terminate intruders with extreme prejudice.
2. A robot will obey the orders of authorized personnel except where such orders conflict with the Third Law.
3. A robot will guard its own existence with lethal antipersonnel weaponry, because a robot is bloody expensive.
Anyway, the science that takes care of that is called Friendly AI and it is been critisized, because it is very hard to control real AI. If one reaches true AI then it cannot be forced what to think, because an AI learns and changes its own "software".

However way you slice it (and I feel we're just talking in circles now), the creators were morons to think that the best way to broker a peace between AI and organics was to build an AI. I reject the creators' premise, first, and second I reject their ... ah, common sense. The Cycle is something devised by an AI that went haywire, divided by zero and decided to go on a murderous rampage by first turning his creators into gray goop and building a warship around said goop. Again, I believe the Catalyst's - and his creators' - reasoning  is based on a false premise ... so I'll take my chances and remove him and his armada from the galaxy forever

[Memnon]

Heeden wrote...

Stornskar wrote...
You don't think Destroy breaks the cycle?

Impropely handled the post-Destroy galaxy could lead to a repetition of events that led to the construction of the Catalyst in the first place. It is possible a future-race could create an AI to counter this which comes to the same conclusion as the Catalyst but in my ending Shepard is dead-set on making sure we create and befriend AI as equal partners in order to move towards our own version of Synthesis (also hoping to repair the Geth and EDI).

The future is uncertain regardless of the options you choose - so my contention is that we should pick the solution which proviides you with the most freedom at the end. That would be Destroy or Refuse ... and as much as I would like to pick Refuse (enjoyment of shooting starbrat aside), I would take my chances with a 'possible repetition of events' since I think the Catalyst's premise is flawed in the first place. Best to take him and the Reapers out and start again on our own terms

Modifié par Stornskar, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:37 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Stornskar wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Off-topic: I saw someone mention the three or four Robotic Laws...

The 3 laws really do not have much practical use. You could also dream up some other practical ones, like:
1. A robot will not harm authorized Government personnel but will terminate intruders with extreme prejudice.
2. A robot will obey the orders of authorized personnel except where such orders conflict with the Third Law.
3. A robot will guard its own existence with lethal antipersonnel weaponry, because a robot is bloody expensive.
Anyway, the science that takes care of that is called Friendly AI and it is been critisized, because it is very hard to control real AI. If one reaches true AI then it cannot be forced what to think, because an AI learns and changes its own "software".

However way you slice it (and I feel we're just talking in circles now), the creators were morons to think that the best way to broker a peace between AI and organics was to build an AI. I reject the creators' premise, first, and second I reject their ... ah, common sense. The Cycle is something devised by an AI that went haywire, divided by zero and decided to go on a murderous rampage by first turning his creators into gray goop and building a warship around said goop. Again, I believe the Catalyst's - and his creators' - reasoning  is based on a false premise ... so I'll take my chances and remove him and his armada from the galaxy forever

Good idea. I do the same.

[Sarevok Synder]

Cutlass Jack wrote...


I'm defending all options as being equally plausible/implausible. Either you those buttons do what he says they will or you don't. So calling someone deluded because they picked a button when you did the same is silly. You took the same roll of the dice as anyone else.

Personally speaking, I don't believe that anything is inevitable. And further I believe all three options are equally silly. But if I were to accept the buttons do exactly what it says they will, then Synth is the only choice presented that even has a chance of breaking the Cycle of Stupid.

What other organics/synthetics are doing over in their own galaxy has absolutely no bearing on that decision.

If you don't believe it, why in hell would you work with a mass murdering lunatic AI? As you said yourself, there likely is no "cycle" there is nothing inevitable about Synthetics wiping out Organics and what we've got on our hands is a glorified Hal9000.

I agree, destroy for me is the best of a bad lot, but Bioware put the drawbacks in it to balance it with the others. If the Geth and EDI survived destroy, the vast majority would pick it.

[Cutlass Jack]

Stornskar wrote...

You don't think Destroy breaks the cycle?

The Catalyst says as much. It breaks the Reaper Cycle by restoring the cycle that caused them to be created in the first place.

And in doing so, you wipe out the only synthetics to potentially break that cycle by making up with their Creators. Which in a way, proves it right. Peace will never happen between Synthetics and Organics.