982 réponses à ce sujet

[Heeden]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

If that's true, then why wouldn't the Synthetics stop after they destroyed their creators? Why wouldn't they just leave all the organic species in the Galaxy that didn't create them alone? If they only wipe out their creators, then there will be no need for his solution anyway. No, he absolutely suggests they will wipe out all organic life, and if that's their sole motivation there is no reason for them to stop with their own home galaxy.

Organics seek perfection through technology, but in order to achieve this they must create technology that exceeds themselves. Organics fear this - it is one of the few things that unite all the races of the galaxy, the idea that AI is bad. Shepard seems to be the only one immune to this fear, a fact noted by Legion. The fear leads to conflict, the conflict is won by the AI, the organics cease to exist.

Either the Catalyst or his creators witnessed this enough times to believe it is an absolute fact of organic life. Maybe they jumped to the wrong conclusion or maybe they were right. It still doesn't mean synthetics will hike all the way from another galaxy to arbitarilly kill everything.

His solution was unworkable from the beginning, he abandoned it about a billion years too late.

His solution was quite workable and implemented for all that time, he abandoned it when it was proven to be broken.

Seems to me like you accept Caspers solution but dont want to accept its logic. If you're going to champion the cause of synthesis, the very least you can do is carry the courage of Caspers convictions (you did give the little twonk your support after all).

I do accept the Catalyst's logic, in fact I pretty much quoted him verbatim.

[Memnon]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

You don't think Destroy breaks the cycle?

The Catalyst says as much. It breaks the Reaper Cycle by restoring the cycle that caused them to be created in the first place.

And in doing so, you wipe out the only synthetics to potentially break that cycle by making up with their Creators. Which in a way, proves it right. Peace will never happen between Synthetics and Organics.

This is part of the Catalyst's premise that I reject - that peace is unobtainable between organics and synthetics. We can easily stop the other cycle by making sure no other idiots make an AI to solve the AI/organics problem, and then provides it with warships to implement the plan.

[Sarevok Synder]

Cutlass Jack wrote...



The Catalyst says as much. It breaks the Reaper Cycle by restoring the cycle that caused them to be created in the first place.

And in doing so, you wipe out the only synthetics to potentially break that cycle by making up with their Creators. Which in a way, proves it right. Peace will never happen between Synthetics and Organics.

But you just said you don't believe anything is inevitable. Why would you take this flawed AIs word that things are?

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:54 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...


I'm defending all options as being equally plausible/implausible. Either you those buttons do what he says they will or you don't. So calling someone deluded because they picked a button when you did the same is silly. You took the same roll of the dice as anyone else.

Personally speaking, I don't believe that anything is inevitable. And further I believe all three options are equally silly. But if I were to accept the buttons do exactly what it says they will, then Synth is the only choice presented that even has a chance of breaking the Cycle of Stupid.

What other organics/synthetics are doing over in their own galaxy has absolutely no bearing on that decision.

If you don't believe it, why in hell would you work with a mass murdering lunatic AI? As you said yourself, there likely is no "cycle" there is nothing inevitable about Synthetics wiping out Organics and what we've got on our hands is a glorified Hal9000.

I agree, destroy for me is the best of a bad lot, but Bioware put the drawbacks in it to balance it with the others. If the Geth and EDI survived destroy, the vast majority would pick it.

You answered your own question. EDI and the Geth earned their chance to exist. I don't see the logic in becoming a mass murderer just because I don't like a mass murderering AI.

If you believe the buttons do what they say they do (and apparently you do, since you pushed one) then Catalyst is a completely valid choice to achieve this. Everyone gets a chance at a real life at the cost of your own.

If you don't believe the Catalyst concerning those choices, if you dont want to work with that lunatic AI, then Reject is the only real choice to make.

[AngryFrozenWater]

savionen wrote...

True, we only have 2 instances where Synthetics were killing organics completely:

1.) Catalyst
2.) Javik - The Metacon war.

Bring Javik with you during a mission (I think the Dreadnought one) and he will reveal that the reapers turned the zha'til (those synthetics in the war you mentioned) hostile against the zha.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:59 .

[Heeden]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Catalyst says as much. It breaks the Reaper Cycle by restoring the cycle that caused them to be created in the first place.

The wheel of time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legends. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again.

[Sarevok Synder]

Cutlass Jack wrote...



You answered your own question. EDI and the Geth earned their chance to exist. I don't see the logic in becoming a mass murderer just because I don't like a mass murderering AI.

If you believe the buttons do what they say they do (and apparently you do, since you pushed one) then Catalyst is a completely valid choice to achieve this. Everyone gets a chance at a real life at the cost of your own.

If you don't believe the Catalyst concerning those choices, if you dont want to work with that lunatic AI, then Reject is the only real choice to make.

No, you've just brushed off the countless trillions that died in the making of the Reapers. The trillions that died due to a flawed AIs flawed logic, all because you didn't know them, but knew the Geth and EDI. The Reapers are basically blood money. But it's just a game, luckily.

No I don't believe it, but the reject ending is the same anyway. The Reapers faced justice in Destroy, they get away with it in the others.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

No, you've just brushed off the countless trillions that died in the making of the Reapers. The trillions that died due to a flawed AIs flawed logic, all because you didn't know them, but knew the Geth and EDI. The Reapers are basically blood money. But it's just a game, luckily.

No I don't believe it, but the reject ending is the same anyway. The Reapers faced justice in Destroy, they get away with it in the others.

The Reapers are themselves victims of the cycle, Synthesis is the only way to free them.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

No, you've just brushed off the countless trillions that died in the making of the Reapers. The trillions that died due to a flawed AIs flawed logic, all because you didn't know them, but knew the Geth and EDI. The Reapers are basically blood money. But it's just a game, luckily.

No I don't believe it, but the reject ending is the same anyway. The Reapers faced justice in Destroy, they get away with it in the others.

The Reapers are themselves victims of the cycle, Synthesis is the only way to free them.

No they're not. They were created by the Cycle, they are certainly not victims of it. They are mass murders under the delusion they're doing the right thing. Being misguided does not absolve them of their crimes.

[Heeden]

Reapers are created by harvesting civilisations, uploading them to a Reaper body, some sort of techno-babble then they are shackled to the Catalysts cycle.

[Uncle Jo]

Heeden wrote...


The Reapers are themselves victims of the cycle, Synthesis is the only way to free them.

Sorry but no. Synthesis is what they've always tried and the brat himself wants. You just fullfilled his wet dream. Congrats.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

Reapers are created by harvesting civilisations, uploading them to a Reaper body, some sort of techno-babble then they are shackled to the Catalysts cycle.

Considering they wouldn't even exist without the Cycle, I doubt they have a problem with Staridiots instructions anyway. They are still mass murdering clowns, and Synthesis spares their genocidal ringleader also. No justice.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[Heeden]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Heeden wrote...


The Reapers are themselves victims of the cycle, Synthesis is the only way to free them.

Sorry but no. Synthesis is what they've always tried and the brat himself wants. You just fullfilled his wet dream. Congrats.

His wet-dream of peaceful co-existence between organics and synthetics, using a method that maintains the sanctity of sentient life and gives a platform from which we could achieve a utopic existence? That's bad because...?

Although technically I chose Destroy, but I'm not denying the terrible cost of this decision or the great benefits of the other choices.

[IceTrey1987]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Fans of synthesis keep on insisting that synthesis is not a Disney-like utopian pipe dream and that free will is not compromised by indoctrination or another form of mind control.

If that is true then wouldn't the following be possible?

Infected Wrex: Hey Harby, I've discovered that the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy is only 25,000 light-years away from Sol.
Infected Harby: Can't you see I am busy building a penthouse for Liara?
Infected Wrex: But I am bored and it is full of organics.
Infected Harby: Organics you say? Sounds interesting. But it's too far.
Infected Wrex: You travel at 30 light-years a day. That's only 833 days. Must be doable. And I hate babysitting.
Infected Harby: So be it!

Or does the utopia of synthesis prevents aggression? The reapers' extremely violent behavior didn't prevent it in the past. If the hypothetical synthetics threat is true wouldn't that cause one intergalactic war after another in the future? Soon the reapers fill the universe. All because it is "inevitable"?

That's the thing that didn't make sense to me.  No matter what actually happens if you make the choice, Shepard has to make the choice not knowing what the outcome will be.  Synthesis just sounds like what Saren was doing in the first game, there's no reason for why the reapers would suddenly grow a heart and love everything instead of kill everything.  Also by changing and perfecting organic life, aren't you losing everything that makes the different species' unique and interesting?  The reapers were technically perfectly designed beings, should everyone have just sat back and let them win from the start?  The whole war is about wanting to survive, if organics want to win the war, they should win, accept no other substitute, and at any price.  I played a fully paragon Shepard, yet I think destroying the reapers is the best option, though bittersweet.  I destroyed the collector base, and there was nothing that happened in 3 to make me change my mind that having that technology around is a good idea.  Indoctrination is just too dangerous.  And that's my problem with control.  Regardless of what actually happens, it just seems too much like a reaper trick.  Shepard is strong-willed, but The Illusive Man and Saren weren't?  

Sorry, but artificial intelligence is still just artificial in my book, and while they're useful, they're just not on the same level of importance as humans and aliens, since they can be recreated.  Collateral damage is regrettable but necessary.

Just my opinion.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

No, sir. I didn't make that one up. The "essence" stuff is based on what the brat tells us. If you believe in the brat then why do you want to deny the mind control?

Because one he mentions, the other you mention? For arguements sake, do you consider the reaper code upgrades Legion gives the Geth to be mind control? Or giving them tools for a better existence? Or something else entirely?

I am not sure if I posted this to your reply already. Also, I am becoming chaotic. IRC, PMs and posts at the same time. Sorry when I repeat myself, OK?

Child: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic live into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.

Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who you are and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.

Not only does it destroy the racial identities, it also messes with everyone's mind. The "essence of who you are and what you are", those are Shepard's, are added to the mix. The "essence of who you are and what you are" does not suggest pure physical qualities, but how Shepard thinks instead is brought in the soup of the matrix of this new framework. If that wasn't important then James Vega's body would be much better. Physically he looks more fit than Shepard. So, this looks definitely evidence of mind control to me.

[Heeden]

@AngryFrozenWater

You did indeed post that earlier (although the circles in this forum have been going on long enough I think everyone has said everything several times). I replied

That's quite a leap to mind-control, if that was an aspect I would expect a change like the Paragon/Renegade differences to Control.

There are a number of things that make Shepard a prime candidate for jumping in the beam;
He is part-Synthetic after project Lazerus.
He is the only known organic to have entered the Geth consensus.
He has (and can foster in others) an open attitude towards Synthetic life - "You are not bound by the hardware limitations of organics...you do not fear us," Legion, ME2.
He's the chosen one, or "Avatar of our cycle" as Javik puts it.
He's the only organic being on the Citadel.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

His wet-dream of peaceful co-existence between organics and synthetics, using a method that maintains the sanctity of sentient life and gives a platform from which we could achieve a utopic existence? That's bad because...?

Although technically I chose Destroy, but I'm not denying the terrible cost of this decision or the great benefits of the other choices.

It's bad because he murdered countless trillions because of a "threat" that most likely doesn't even exist. Other than that, nothing.......

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Heeden wrote...


The Reapers are themselves victims of the cycle, Synthesis is the only way to free them.

Sorry but no. Synthesis is what they've always tried and the brat himself wants. You just fullfilled his wet dream. Congrats.

His wet-dream of peaceful co-existence between organics and synthetics, using a method that maintains the sanctity of sentient life and gives a platform from which we could achieve a utopic existence? That's bad because...?

Although technically I chose Destroy, but I'm not denying the terrible cost of this decision or the great benefits of the other choices.

Things are rarely that simple, its wet dreams are organics' nightmare, and it is not PEACEFUL co-existence, it is a peace achieved by killing the other off

It is funny you highlight only the cost of destroy and the POTENTIAL, the expected benefit of synthesis

Modifié par Vigilant111, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

It's bad because he murdered countless trillions because of a "threat" that most likely doesn't even exist. Other than that, nothing.......

Good, so we forget the past, move beyond the "eye-for-an-eye" attitude that can only leave the whole galaxy blind and get on with building space-stuff. Awesome.

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Things are rarely that simple, its wet dreams are organics' nightmare, and it is not PEACEFUL co-existence, it is a peace achieved by killing the other off

No, the Reapers weren't his ideal solution - they
were the only one he could get to work. Synthesis is peaceful
co-existence, that's what he really wanted and finally it is achievable.

It is funny you highlight only the cost of destroy and the POTENTIAL, the expected benefit of synthesis

There are enough daft theories about Synthesis (half-a-toaster, mind-control, mass-extinction etc.) I don't feel the need to add valid concerns, although it is to do with worries about up-lift but possibly more to do with not wanting Shepard to die.

[Cutlass Jack]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

No, sir. I didn't make that one up. The "essence" stuff is based on what the brat tells us. If you believe in the brat then why do you want to deny the mind control?

Because one he mentions, the other you mention? For arguements sake, do you consider the reaper code upgrades Legion gives the Geth to be mind control? Or giving them tools for a better existence? Or something else entirely?

I am not sure if I posted this to your reply already. Also, I am becoming chaotic. IRC, PMs and posts at the same time. Sorry when I repeat myself, OK?

Child: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic live into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.

Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who you are and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.

Not only does it destroy the racial identities, it also messes with everyone's mind. The "essence of who you are and what you are", those are Shepard's, are added to the mix. The "essence of who you are and what you are" does not suggest pure physical qualities, but how Shepard thinks instead is brought in the soup of the matrix of this new framework. If that wasn't important then James Vega's body would be much better. Physically he looks more fit than Shepard. So, this looks definitely evidence of mind control to me.

No you ignored my post and made me cry *sob*

But there are factors you're not accounting for in Shepard that is lacking in James. First Shepard is half synthetic himself by that point.  Second (and to me far more important) is that Shepard has a strength of will that enabled him to stay sane and keep his identity even after repeated Beacon exposure, dying and other fun stuff. That strength of will enabled him unite a galaxy that included synthetics and organics.

None of that is evidence of mind control to me. But rather the opposite. Good qualities to pass onto everyone.

Which is why I asked about your feelings concerning the Geth upgrades. Because in my mind that was a lesser version of the same thing. It brought the Geth closer to true free will, not mind control.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:53 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


Good, so we forget the past, move beyond the "eye-for-an-eye" attitude that can only leave the whole galaxy blind and get on with building space-stuff. Awesome.

Sure why not forget the reasons for WW2 or Pol pot. Forget it, sure they had their reasons....

This isn't a minor tiff, or a war. This was genocide, committed many times. There is no forgiving it, any benefits attained by sparing them is blood money. Yes, the Geth and EDI are gone, but the Galaxy is hardly blind, the rest are still there, and the mass murdering freaks are gone, including the cause of the whole mess.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:59 .