982 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

@AngryFrozenWater

You did indeed post that earlier (although the circles in this forum have been going on long enough I think everyone has said everything several times). I replied

That's quite a leap to mind-control, if that was an aspect I would expect a change like the Paragon/Renegade differences to Control.

There are a number of things that make Shepard a prime candidate for jumping in the beam;
He is part-Synthetic after project Lazerus.
He is the only known organic to have entered the Geth consensus.
He has (and can foster in others) an open attitude towards Synthetic life - "You are not bound by the hardware limitations of organics...you do not fear us," Legion, ME2.
He's the chosen one, or "Avatar of our cycle" as Javik puts it.
He's the only organic being on the Citadel.

Read your own list again. There would be no point if those issues on your list would not be used. The only reason is that it effects the minds of everyone. It is an attempt to make some kind of change. We have no idea how much, but it has to change *something*. Even if it is a little bit then it is still mind control, manipulation, or whatever name you give to that mental fiddling. If it is dispersed to everyone then it effects everyone. So I think that the "essence of who [Shepard] is and what [Shepard] is" is rather important. There can be no denying that it has a function and that it is there. I call it mind control, because indoctrination doesn't fit.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:10 .

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Things are rarely that simple, its wet dreams are organics' nightmare, and it is not PEACEFUL co-existence, it is a peace achieved by killing the other off

No, the Reapers weren't his ideal solution - they
were the only one he could get to work. Synthesis is peaceful
co-existence, that's what he really wanted and finally it is achievable.

It is funny you highlight only the cost of destroy and the POTENTIAL, the expected benefit of synthesis

There are enough daft theories about Synthesis (half-a-toaster, mind-control, mass-extinction etc.) I don't feel the need to add valid concerns, although it is to do with worries about up-lift but possibly more to do with not wanting Shepard to die.

Choosing anything has nothing to do with the bolded text

So u do admit uplifting is a problem?

I am sick and tired of listening to the Catalyst's ideals, it is only one opinion, ONE! I am not going to discount all other opinions just cos the Catalyst is a trillion years old

Synthesis has failed before, what makes u think this time it will succeed?

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Sure why not forget the reasons for WW2 or Pol pot. Forget it, sure they had their reasons....

This isn't a minor tiff, or a war. This was genocide, committed many times. There is no forgiving it, any benefits attained by sparing them is blood money. Yes, the Geth and EDI are gone, but the Galaxy is hardly blind, the rest are still there, and the mass murdering freaks are gone, including the cause of the whole mess.

You're saying we should have wiped out all the Axis forces after WWII?

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

@AngryFrozenWater

You did indeed post that earlier (although the circles in this forum have been going on long enough I think everyone has said everything several times). I replied

That's quite a leap to mind-control, if that was an aspect I would expect a change like the Paragon/Renegade differences to Control.

There are a number of things that make Shepard a prime candidate for jumping in the beam;
He is part-Synthetic after project Lazerus.
He is the only known organic to have entered the Geth consensus.
He has (and can foster in others) an open attitude towards Synthetic life - "You are not bound by the hardware limitations of organics...you do not fear us," Legion, ME2.
He's the chosen one, or "Avatar of our cycle" as Javik puts it.
He's the only organic being on the Citadel.

Read your own list again. There would be no point if those issues on your list would not be used. The only reason is that it effects the minds of everyone. It is an attempt to make some kind of change. We have no idea how much, but it has to change *something*. Even if it is a little bit then it is still mind control, manipulation, or whatever name you give to that mental fiddling. If it is dispersed to everyone then it effects everyone. So I think that the "essence of who [Shepard] is or what [Shepard] is" is rather important. There can be no denying that it has a function and that it is there. I call it mind control, because indoctrination doesn't fit.

Those things may mean Shepard is the only being that can be broken down and dispersed, it may be just convenience (there is no-one else) or it may rely on the fact people trust Shepard.

[Wayning_Star]

IceTrey1987 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Fans of synthesis keep on insisting that synthesis is not a Disney-like utopian pipe dream and that free will is not compromised by indoctrination or another form of mind control.

If that is true then wouldn't the following be possible?

Infected Wrex: Hey Harby, I've discovered that the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy is only 25,000 light-years away from Sol.
Infected Harby: Can't you see I am busy building a penthouse for Liara?
Infected Wrex: But I am bored and it is full of organics.
Infected Harby: Organics you say? Sounds interesting. But it's too far.
Infected Wrex: You travel at 30 light-years a day. That's only 833 days. Must be doable. And I hate babysitting.
Infected Harby: So be it!

Or does the utopia of synthesis prevents aggression? The reapers' extremely violent behavior didn't prevent it in the past. If the hypothetical synthetics threat is true wouldn't that cause one intergalactic war after another in the future? Soon the reapers fill the universe. All because it is "inevitable"?

That's the thing that didn't make sense to me.  No matter what actually happens if you make the choice, Shepard has to make the choice not knowing what the outcome will be.  Synthesis just sounds like what Saren was doing in the first game, there's no reason for why the reapers would suddenly grow a heart and love everything instead of kill everything.  Also by changing and perfecting organic life, aren't you losing everything that makes the different species' unique and interesting?  The reapers were technically perfectly designed beings, should everyone have just sat back and let them win from the start?  The whole war is about wanting to survive, if organics want to win the war, they should win, accept no other substitute, and at any price.  I played a fully paragon Shepard, yet I think destroying the reapers is the best option, though bittersweet.  I destroyed the collector base, and there was nothing that happened in 3 to make me change my mind that having that technology around is a good idea.  Indoctrination is just too dangerous.  And that's my problem with control.  Regardless of what actually happens, it just seems too much like a reaper trick.  Shepard is strong-willed, but The Illusive Man and Saren weren't?  

Sorry, but artificial intelligence is still just artificial in my book, and while they're useful, they're just not on the same level of importance as humans and aliens, since they can be recreated.  Collateral damage is regrettable but necessary.

Just my opinion.

there is a difference of "AI vs Sentient life. The trip wire for the cycle is war between organic sentience and inorganic sentience. The reaper thinks in a total vacuum of it's own version of reality, it cannot think (imagine,Like in the beatle song)any other way. This story is imbeded in most sc fi I've read about the conundrum of us dealing with our(purley intellectual) creations. There is no such thing as artificial intelligence, if it's totally self aware, as the entity moves past the "it" to "self". It's entirely possible that the reaper isn't self aware, only programmed to deliver the cycle, until the crucible was designed to inject organic matter (evolution) into it's matrix, and include the deciding complex ideals of organic DNA data. Organics were assumed first to exist and learn to build synthetics to emulate them, then they did just that to become a new species controlled by organics. This, apparently broke down to an "us and them" scenerio where as the synthetic intellect decides (a new thing for synthetics under organic control) they wish to be like organics and be independent of this control. The only way out of this logic loop was to become more, say, human and humans, to say, become more synthetic, share the idea of existance. Become "one" with the creators? (swiped from star trek:)  It's apparent that we cannot bomb our way out of this one, eventhough many would try as they might. Irresistable force meets immovable object.
But the crucible changed it..you now have a choice..to stop the reapers war?(on organic sentience)

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

@AngryFrozenWater

You did indeed post that earlier (although the circles in this forum have been going on long enough I think everyone has said everything several times). I replied

That's quite a leap to mind-control, if that was an aspect I would expect a change like the Paragon/Renegade differences to Control.

There are a number of things that make Shepard a prime candidate for jumping in the beam;
He is part-Synthetic after project Lazerus.
He is the only known organic to have entered the Geth consensus.
He has (and can foster in others) an open attitude towards Synthetic life - "You are not bound by the hardware limitations of organics...you do not fear us," Legion, ME2.
He's the chosen one, or "Avatar of our cycle" as Javik puts it.
He's the only organic being on the Citadel.

Read your own list again. There would be no point if those issues on your list would not be used. The only reason is that it effects the minds of everyone. It is an attempt to make some kind of change. We have no idea how much, but it has to change *something*. Even if it is a little bit then it is still mind control, manipulation, or whatever name you give to that mental fiddling. If it is dispersed to everyone then it effects everyone. So I think that the "essence of who [Shepard] is and what [Shepard] is" is rather important. There can be no denying that it has a function and that it is there. I call it mind control, because indoctrination doesn't fit.

Those things may mean Shepard is the only being that can be broken down and dispersed, it may be just convenience (there is no-one else) or it may rely on the fact people trust Shepard.

Come on, man. Don't give me that nonsense. If it is not important then it would be symbolic to kill him. There is no reason to squeeze a lemon if you are not using the juice.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:18 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Sure why not forget the reasons for WW2 or Pol pot. Forget it, sure they had their reasons....

This isn't a minor tiff, or a war. This was genocide, committed many times. There is no forgiving it, any benefits attained by sparing them is blood money. Yes, the Geth and EDI are gone, but the Galaxy is hardly blind, the rest are still there, and the mass murdering freaks are gone, including the cause of the whole mess.

You're saying we should have wiped out all the Axis forces after WWII?

They were hardly willing participants, plus they surrendered, nor were they involved in genocide. Starbrat wouldn't surrender, nor the Reapers, they were also genocidal freaks, it's called justice, and justice is blind. Even surrender doesn't necessarily get one off the hook, it all depends on the crime.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:15 .

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Choosing anything has nothing to do with the bolded text

I was (and am) completely torn between Synthesis and Destroy, note I do think Synthesis will do everything as advertised and could make all our dreams come true, but there are other issues (more in a moment) that means Destroy becomes more appealing from a consequentialist view, even though it is morally repugnant. Divided this way, the deciding factor becomes the fact Shep lives in one option and dies in the other.

So u do admit uplifting is a problem?

Yes, because I paid attention to the game. Up-lift can be brilliant, it can give a civilisation that little helping-hand to ensure they reach the next plateau without accidently self-extincting, Synthesis offers many wonderful and exciting opportunities for a galactic community that is on its arse at the moment. But there is a chance that it is too much, too soon. I Paragonned my arse off to create a galaxy I could be proud to live in but I wonder if we're ready for the quantum-leap of Synthesis or if it's something we should build towards whilst recovering together.

However the "victory" over the destroyed Reapers is a hollow one, no-one wins really and my Shepard intends for their loss to be lamented and for lessons to be learned.

[General User]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Sure why not forget the reasons for WW2 or Pol pot. Forget it, sure they had their reasons....

This isn't a minor tiff, or a war. This was genocide, committed many times. There is no forgiving it, any benefits attained by sparing them is blood money. Yes, the Geth and EDI are gone, but the Galaxy is hardly blind, the rest are still there, and the mass murdering freaks are gone, including the cause of the whole mess.

You're saying we should have wiped out all the Axis forces after WWII?

We did wipe out all the Axis forces after WWII.  At least those we didn't wipe out during anyway.

Modifié par General User, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:17 .

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Come on, man. Don't give me that nonsense. If it is not important then it would be symbolic to kill him. There is no reason the squeeze a lemon if you are not using the juice.

I'm not saying they don't use the juice - they quite obviously do - and Shepard's juice may be the tastiest and most full of vitamins, but that does not mean the juice will mind-hack you. If Shepards personality was to affect the minds of Synthesised people they would have differentiated between Paragon and Renegade like they did with Control.

[Heeden]

General User wrote...

We did wipe out all the Axis forces after WWII.  At least those we didn't wipe out during anyway.

No we didn't. At no point were the entire combined militaries of the losing nations put to death. That would be hideous, even in the middle ages entire armies were seldom (if ever) executed.

[Wayning_Star]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Sure why not forget the reasons for WW2 or Pol pot. Forget it, sure they had their reasons....

This isn't a minor tiff, or a war. This was genocide, committed many times. There is no forgiving it, any benefits attained by sparing them is blood money. Yes, the Geth and EDI are gone, but the Galaxy is hardly blind, the rest are still there, and the mass murdering freaks are gone, including the cause of the whole mess.

You're saying we should have wiped out all the Axis forces after WWII?

They were hardly willing participants, plus they surrendered, nor were they involved in genocide. Starbrat wouldn't surrender, nor the Reapers, they were also genocidal freaks, it's called justice, and justice is blind. Even surrender doesn't necessarily get one off the hook, it all depends on the crime.

in this scenero, crime is moot point. It's gone too far and besides,a machine cannot commit a crime,(of passion or any other) just an error in programming. If otherwise considered, all entities considered are "alive" to freely make such mistakes/break laws, etc.. If what you say is true, then organics are responsible for the carnage, as they 'created' the synthetics. Who/what gets organics off that hook?

[General User]

Heeden wrote...

General User wrote...

We did wipe out all the Axis forces after WWII.  At least those we didn't wipe out during anyway.

No we didn't. At no point were the entire combined militaries of the losing nations put to death. That would be hideous, even in the middle ages entire armies were seldom (if ever) executed.

Entirely put to death!?!  As in killed to a man?  No, of course not. 

But a defeated adversary being disarmed, disbanded, and re-educated is par for the course.

Modifié par General User, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:32 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Wayning_Star wrote...



in this scenero, crime is moot point. It's gone too far and besides,a machine cannot commit a crime,(of passion or any other) just an error in programming. If otherwise considered, all entities considered are "alive" to freely make such mistakes/break laws, etc.. If what you say is true, then organics are responsible for the carnage, as they 'created' the synthetics. Who/what gets organics off that hook?

These are sentient machines, they absolutely can commit a crime. You're damn right they went too far, they killed countless trillions.

No all organics aren't responsible, how can you blame a race that had nothing to do with Starbrats creation for its creation? That's just stupid!

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:33 .

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

No all organics aren't responsible, how can you blame a race that had nothing to do with Starbrats creation for its creation? That's just stupid!

So blame the race who is responsible, which is currently stored in the form of Harbinger. Ask them what the hell they though they were doing, then figure out if "good intentions" is a crime.

[Direwolf0294]

It's probably being mentioned, and I'm not going to read through 23 pages to find out, but you don't seem to fully understand what the Synthesis ending is about.

The synthesis ending is about ending the war between organics and synthetics that's based on nothing else than them being different from each other. It's not about completely removing all potential conflict for now and ever. There'd still be different idiologies that would lead to conflict, it's just now that conflict wouldn't be based on the fact that organics are organics and synthetics are synthetic.

Now if you're wondering, why is the galaxy all at peace in the synthesis ending than if conflict is still possible, the obvious answer is that everyone's just happy the war is over and is focusing on rebuilding. There likely will be further wars in the future, it's just not shown during the cutscenes.

Also, the Reapers weren't inherently violent. They weren't doing what they were doing out of malice or enjoyment, they thought they were doing what was best for everyone. Now that they understand how organics think, how precious life is to them, they have no reason to want to go to war, even to force other organics from other galaxies to becomes organic/synthetic hybrids.

Yes, there may be a war with another galaxy at some point (I'm actually hoping that will be the setting of ME4), but it wouldn't be because the inhabitants of this galaxy feel the need to force synthesis on others (though there would be those who do, which in turn would lead to inner conflict in our galaxy about whether we should be trying to force everyone to be like us), and it wouldn't have more of an increased chance of happening than the other two endings.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



So blame the race who is responsible, which is currently stored in the form of Harbinger. Ask them what the hell they though they were doing, then figure out if "good intentions" is a crime.

That race is long gone and has paid the price for their folly. All that's left is Starbrat, Harbinger and the rest of the Reaper psychos.

[Pacifien]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
But for Harby that synthetics thread is not hypothetical. He was designed and build to make an end to it.

This right here is where we arrive at an impasse in this debate, because I believe that with Synthesis, the Reapers transcend their original programming and you, apparently, do not.

In order for me to answer the scenario you have provided to your satisfaction, I will have to do so from your perspective. I don't really want to do that because, like, your interpretation of Synthesis kinda sucks in my opinion. No, not the fact what you're depicting is a less than ideal future--I think I've established I am for anything but perfect endings. I just don't believe in the idea that Synthesis prevents the Reapers from evolving their programming. 

My head canon is best canon.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

That race is long gone and has paid the price for their folly. All that's left is Starbrat, Harbinger and the rest of the Reaper psychos.

The race is stored in the first Reaper which is believed by Earth Command to be Harbinger (and rumours from DLC leaks expect this to be confirmed).

[Wayning_Star]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...



in this scenero, crime is moot point. It's gone too far and besides,a machine cannot commit a crime,(of passion or any other) just an error in programming. If otherwise considered, all entities considered are "alive" to freely make such mistakes/break laws, etc.. If what you say is true, then organics are responsible for the carnage, as they 'created' the synthetics. Who/what gets organics off that hook?

These are sentient machines, they absolutely can commit a crime. You're damn right they went too far, they killed countless trillions.

No all organics aren't responsible, how can you blame a race that had nothing to do with Starbrats creation for its creation? That's just stupid!

lol, you've spoiled you're own arguement with the 'blame game'. The reaper isn't sentient, it's controlled from a program lost in time. Thats the only reason for the crucible, to show it the mistake, er, program error. The crucible is merely a sofware upgrade/update really, with Sheppard/organic DNA. The catalyst didn't really 'care' as that is an organic trait, no guilt, not guilty. The 'too far' was in the power obtained by the endless cycle, directly caused/implemented by organics who built the reapers. They committed the crime, by trial and error, but without intent, no law broken. It's more like a tragedy, like a rouge black hole slipping through a galaxy snacking of a massive list of star systems. Wheres a when you need one?!?http://news.national...lack-holes.html

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

That race is long gone and has paid the price for their folly. All that's left is Starbrat, Harbinger and the rest of the Reaper psychos.

The race is stored in the first Reaper which is believed by Earth Command to be Harbinger (and rumours from DLC leaks expect this to be confirmed).

Their DNA may be there in some form, but they're dead. Their individuality is gone, they are nothing now.

[Pacifien]

Heeden wrote...
The race is stored in the first Reaper which is believed by Earth Command to be Harbinger (and rumours from DLC leaks expect this to be confirmed).

New Conspiracy: The Collectors were so shoddy at their plan in Mass Effect 2 because Harbinger *wanted* Shepard to defeat them. It was Harbinger's subconscious way of crying for help, to get Shepard to release him from an eternity of pain under the Catalyst's control.

Oh yes.

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

And from that day forward, his name was Mark.

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Their DNA may be there in some form, but they're dead. Their individuality is gone, they are nothing now.

Citation needed.

[Spartas Husky]

hey pagifen long time no see the cute.... w/e that is .

Also didn't EDI implied that she now understand and there is a realm of existance they can possibly achieve...

The same exact thing soverign said...