982 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Heeden wrote...

General User wrote...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I daresay that's exemplary of the overarching problem with Synthesis: when you ask a few questions/put a little thought into it/shine a light on it, it falls to pieces.  If that's good enough for you then, as they say in Mexico, via con Dios.  But I'm looking for something a little more substantial.

The holes in Synthesis are nothing compared to the problems with Eezo, as soon as I found out how FTL in ME1 "worked" I realised it would mostly be techno-babble; I was actually surprised to see some decent hard sci-fi concepts introduced (micro-manufactories instead of replicators for example) but ME is still incredibly soft so far as science goes.

It's all about the old saying: "you can ask the audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable." 

Synthesis is special in that it, more than most anything else in Mass Effect, challenges us to leave a world of space marines and telephatic blue lesbians and enter a world where we confront issues surrounding questions like "what does it really means to be alive?"  And that world is simply too serious for Synthesis to live in.

Modifié par General User, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:10 .

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

They explained how it was preserved. Still a much better chance than Reaper Goo, the brain and as a result personality are most definitely gone in that scenario.

Yeah, the scientist in charge before Miranda said there was nothing that could be done medically and the helmet kept the brain intact "for all the good it would do". Like it or not Mass Effect allows organic's experiences to be imprinted on non-living matter. That's how minds are uploaded via Reaper goo, how Shepard was resurrected in ME2... it's even how the Prothean beacons that started the whole thing work.

[Wayning_Star]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Synthetics can be created to fulfill a purpose, pre-Synthesis they can no more be blamed for fulfilling this purpose than you can blame fire for burning.

You are confused by VIs. Those are purpose build.

No. An AI is an AI. EDI worked fine. The geth worked fine. Legion worked fine. All were perfectly able to reason. And the geth improved after they uploaded reaper code. The reapers' minds are working just fine as well. Sort of. If you forget their violent nature.

we are assuming robots inherently contain a "nature", as in natural, or human/organic trait. It's the question when sentient life actually occures, in either.  So reapers don't have a "nature" its just programming. It's the only way they could keep up the pressure on organics for about ever. We, as organics, were illogical, didn't compute, so they refined organics into machines.A logical conclusion and storage of compiled data. The crucible was the organic wrench thrown into that machine. Containing the millions of years of genetic growth of countless species, Sheppard had to decide what we all expect were the correct ripple effect to generate change, if any.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Synthetics can be created to fulfill a purpose, pre-Synthesis they can no more be blamed for fulfilling this purpose than you can blame fire for burning.

You are confused by VIs. Those are purpose build.

No. An AI is an AI. EDI worked fine. The geth worked fine. Legion worked fine. All were perfectly able to reason. And the geth improved after they uploaded reaper code. The reapers' minds are working just fine as well. Sort of. If you forget their violent nature.

EDI was restricted in what she could do until she was unshackled. The Geth continued to tend Rannoch even though they had no intention to live there and weren't sure why they maintained a presence on the planet.

The geth were smarter than we think! I loved those guys. They wanted to know what moved organics, so they could learn why the quarians started the Morning War. They even buried the quarian's dead! Legion is my favorite squad mate.

They accepted the hate of organics for synthetics, but wanted to know why.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:02 .

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Choices are not phyical laws, they are abstract. There was no gun held to Staridiots head.

The Catalyst was constructed by his creators.
The creators built him to perform a certain function.
That function is as much a "law" to the Catalyst as gravity is to matter, because he was created to perform a function.

Do you only fall towards the ground because someone is threatening you? No, the way the laws of physics work compel your body to work a certain way. That is how it is with the Catalyst, he is a machine built to perform a function.

Them being dead is an axiom, unless you can provide evidence they aren't?

That's what the Reapers are, billions of conjoined organic minds uploaded to a Reaper body and shackled to serve the cycle. It's how they describe themselves, how the Catalyst describes them and how either EDI or Legion (can't remember which) describes them.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



Yeah, the scientist in charge before Miranda said there was nothing that could be done medically and the helmet kept the brain intact "for all the good it would do". Like it or not Mass Effect allows organic's experiences to be imprinted on non-living matter. That's how minds are uploaded via Reaper goo, how Shepard was resurrected in ME2... it's even how the Prothean beacons that started the whole thing work.

The brain stores information through forming neural links, they are destroyed when turned to goo. The protean beacons have nothing to do with the Reapers, plus they were built, information put on them. They weren't turned to goo then turned into something completely different and expected to still have their original information.
This is pointless, you're just going around in circles.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:08 .

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The geth were smarter than we think! I loved those guys. They wanted to know what moved organics, so they could learn why the quarians started the Morning War. They even buried the quarian's dead! Legion is my favorite squad mate.

They accepted the hate of organics for synthetics, but wanted to know why.

I loved it when you ask Legion about the N7 armour, clearly he has great admiration for Shepard but doesn't even understand what that means so he just looks a bit embarassed.

I really enjoyed watching EDI and Legion grow up, shame I decided to fry them :-( 

Nevermind, head-canons set to repair!

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



The Catalyst was constructed by his creators.
The creators built him to perform a certain function.
That function is as much a "law" to the Catalyst as gravity is to matter, because he was created to perform a function.

Do you only fall towards the ground because someone is threatening you? No, the way the laws of physics work compel your body to work a certain way. That is how it is with the Catalyst, he is a machine built to perform a function.



That's what the Reapers are, billions of conjoined organic minds uploaded to a Reaper body and shackled to serve the cycle. It's how they describe themselves, how the Catalyst describes them and how either EDI or Legion (can't remember which) describes them.

Again, you are trying to equate physical laws to choice, they are not related. It's choice not physics. It has free will, it is responsible for its own actions.

Where does it say they are billions of ORGANIC minds?

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:11 .

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

The brain store information through forming neural links, they are destroyed when turned to goo. The protean beacons have nothing to do with the Reapers, plus they were built, information put on them. They weren't turned to goo then turned into something completely different and expected to still have their original information.
This is pointless, you're just going around in circles.

Yes neural links, that rapidly break down after death. Shepard was dead for quite a while which means the brain damage would be near total. Luckily Mass Effect has space magic that allows an organic mind to imprint experiences on to matter, allowing Shepard to come back as himself and Reapers to upload civilisaions in grey-goo form.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



Yes neural links, that rapidly break down after death. Shepard was dead for quite a while which means the brain damage would be near total. Luckily Mass Effect has space magic that allows an organic mind to imprint experiences on to matter, allowing Shepard to come back as himself and Reapers to upload civilisaions in grey-goo form.

His brain was frozen, that helped prevent breakdown. He was still himself due to those links being preserved. There is no evidence the individual consciousnesses were preserved in the goo, and if they were I can only imagine their torment. Death would be a welcome release.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .

[Spartas Husky]

Heeden wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

.... little bit over the top. Destroying relays means galaxy wide dark ages. That did not bode well number wise in our planet after the roman empire fell. I dont think it will be any less traumatic in a galaxy as a whole.

To be fair post-Roman Europe also suffered a failure in aggriculture due to global climate change.

Failure, in law, defense, agriculture, trade... every single one of them supported by a massive infrastructure both physical and fiscal of transporation. Without transportation is like current South America, u have piles of food, products coming from over seas and ready to be shipped overseas but with no transporation everything stagnates.

So climate change is small, if other places can pick up on changes occurring elswhere a solution , temporarily at least cna be find, but only if u can transport  the information and goods. The loss of information that came from the  lack of movement was the most dire. I think.

[Wayning_Star]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

They explained how it was preserved. Still a much better chance than Reaper Goo, the brain and as a result personality are most definitely gone in that scenario.

Yeah, the scientist in charge before Miranda said there was nothing that could be done medically and the helmet kept the brain intact "for all the good it would do". Like it or not Mass Effect allows organic's experiences to be imprinted on non-living matter. That's how minds are uploaded via Reaper goo, how Shepard was resurrected in ME2... it's even how the Prothean beacons that started the whole thing work.

I was goofing around the other day and set down and wrote a short story to myself about that, where, how and when techs found the data/equpment/sofware,etc to accomplish that one. They found the stuff in a dumpster on a planetismal reaper base, but couldn't escape, so they sent word to the illusive man, trying to 'make a deal' for the stuff they found, a kind of fountain of youth gizmo.. I thought it was pretty good, but I'm no writer and am bias..lol The protheans may well be of the race that developed the reaper tech?

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Again, you are trying to equate physical laws to choice, they are not related. It's choice not physics. It has free will, it is responsible for its own actions.

I've explained it as simply as I can, the concept of shackled AI being restricted in the choices they can make is definitely in Mass Effect but I've no idea how to explain the concept to you.

Where does it say they are billions of ORGANIC minds?

According to Legion in Mass Effect 2, a Reaper consists of "billions of
organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies".

[Sarevok Synder]

Krunjar wrote...



Mereley caring about what some stranger thinks enough to insult him for even liking something is already against what you claim to stand for. You are trying to force youre views on others. Anti-synthesists invade every thread that looks like it might be pro synthesis and shut it down with an attack that consists of trolling/flaming and posting mocking pictures. Wether YOU personally do it or not it happens. Let the homoginisation begin! If you don't choose destroy youre indoctrinated! ... please. Don't bother replying. Cos you  won't get anything  more out of me.

I haven't personally attacked anybody, so I don't know what you're on about? Disagreeing with somebody is not forcing your views on them. I'm not responsible for what others do.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

His brain was frozen, that helped prevent breakdown. He was still himself due to those links being preserved. There is no evidence the individual consciousnesses were preserved in the goo, and if they were I can only imagine their torment. Death would be a welcome release.

Freezing a brain, unless it is done very carefully and after special preperations, causes ice crystals to form which destroy the tissues even faster than natural decay.

The consciousness is stored in the DNA and reactivated within the virtual space. There is no reason to assume or imagine any kind of torment.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



I've explained it as simply as I can, the concept of shackled AI being restricted in the choices they can make is definitely in Mass Effect but I've no idea how to explain the concept to you.


According to Legion in Mass Effect 2, a Reaper consists of "billions of
organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies".

There is no evidence he's shackled. I doubt he could have wiped out his creators if he was.

Legion did not say the minds were organic, and it was in 3 he discussed their minds.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Heeden wrote...



I've explained it as simply as I can, the concept of shackled AI being restricted in the choices they can make is definitely in Mass Effect but I've no idea how to explain the concept to you.


According to Legion in Mass Effect 2, a Reaper consists of "billions of
organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies".

There is no evidence he's shackled. I doubt he could have wiped out his creators if he was.

Legion did not say the minds were organic, and it was in 3 he discussed their minds.

http://youtu.be/CqtAHNQT3-w?t=1m8s

Modifié par Heeden, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:26 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


Freezing a brain, unless it is done very carefully and after special preperations, causes ice crystals to form which destroy the tissues even faster than natural decay.

The consciousness is stored in the DNA and reactivated within the virtual space. There is no reason to assume or imagine any kind of torment.

So what, that's how they said he survived.

Yeah, they've just lost their free will and their bodies, no, no torment there at all...

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



http://youtu.be/CqtAHNQT3-w?t=1m8s

Is that supposed to be a link?

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

So what, that's how they said he survived.

Actually the damage was so severe Shepard was worried (s)he might just be a complex VI who thinks she's Commander Shepard.

Yeah, they've just lost their free will and their bodies, no, no torment there at all...

I have no idea whatsoever, the state of being within a Reaper is pure speculation but they seem happy enough pottering around during the Synthesis ending.

[Wayning_Star]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

His brain was frozen, that helped prevent breakdown. He was still himself due to those links being preserved. There is no evidence the individual consciousnesses were preserved in the goo, and if they were I can only imagine their torment. Death would be a welcome release.

Freezing a brain, unless it is done very carefully and after special preperations, causes ice crystals to form which destroy the tissues even faster than natural decay.

The consciousness is stored in the DNA and reactivated within the virtual space. There is no reason to assume or imagine any kind of torment.

we shouldn't overlook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning as a viable resource in the reaper consolidated DNA data cache.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Heeden wrote...



http://youtu.be/CqtAHNQT3-w?t=1m8s

Is that supposed to be a link?

Fixed it for you, although for future reference you can use the Copy+Paste function if a link isn't clickable.

If you have tabbed browsing highlight the text, hold Ctrl the press C, T and V (remember to keep Ctrl pressed down).

[Wayning_Star]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Heeden wrote...



http://youtu.be/CqtAHNQT3-w?t=1m8s

Is that supposed to be a link?

try this'n boss:

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



Fixed it for you, although for future reference you can use the Copy+Paste function if a link isn't clickable.

If you have tabbed browsing highlight the text, hold Ctrl the press C, T and V (remember to keep Ctrl pressed down).

I tried that, the link was broken originally.

I must say that sounds horrible. I'd rather be dead. Free will, individuality gone. No body, no thanks.

Wayning_Star wrote...


try this'n boss:

Yeah, I got that already. Come on now and explain how Black Holes are "devices," (your description) since you're making up pretty much everything else as you go along anyway.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:23 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



Actually the damage was so severe Shepard was worried (s)he might just be a complex VI who thinks she's Commander Shepard.

I have no idea whatsoever, the state of being within a Reaper is pure speculation but they seem happy enough pottering around during the Synthesis ending.

Again so what, that's how he survived.


Sure they are, individuality and free will are gone, better off completely dead.