982 réponses à ce sujet

[IscrewTali]

The Angry One wrote...

tettenjager wrote...

i dont think they will become evil or anything, it is not stated anywhere in the epilogue that they feel superior or have a lust to inslave organics and synthetics

Synthesis is partly based on the idea that organics are chaos, and chaos is oh so bad.

So what happens when a wild organic appears?

From another galaxy? You know the closest galaxy might be millions of light years away. Only way for travel across galaxies is to have a mass relay on the other side, but to do that you must have someone to build it.

[lx_theo]

Fandango9641 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Best they become a police force to stop the threat of any species that choose not to become the hybrid in the synthetic organic conflicts.

Yeah, thats totalitarianism.

No, it isn't. Or is the UN a totalianarism state?

You advocate a system controls the very nature of life.

No, I'm just suggesting a force that eliminates the need for a cycle. If a situation gets to the point that either side might be wiped out (the problem the cycle was supposed to fix), they could step in and stop that. I'm speeching more a minimalist police force that only enters when absolutely needed, not something that changes how they live their life anything more than that one thing.

Ignoring the fact that those nailing their colours to the Synthesis mast have already chosen their 'solution' to that particular problem, you (despite the vagueness of your proposition) are still talking in terms of having to police synthetic and organic life. And all this to make the best case for a synthetic future?

You assume they couldn't respect choice, Sure they didn't get to choose, but that could just as easily send them in a direction that makes sure everyone gets that choice as it would forcing the choice.

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sorry but when you start a new society based around xenophobia, then xenophobia will be the order of the day. Now add onto that that they're now convinced synthesis is perfect (listen to how EDI talks).

They will allow the Reapers to carry on their agenda because *they now think as the Reapers do*.

That stinks of lacking logic. A society MAY be all for it if the actually governing bodies were the ones making that decisions and were the ones continuing to govern it. But this decision and change has nothing to do with how the people will go forward and make their society. They could embrace any policy in regards to pure organics and synthetics.

You speak of governing bodies when synthesis was forced on everyone without their consent?
Do you honestly think the people have a say in this?

They do not think like the Reapers. There is zero proof of this whatsoever. It has no effect on any of these subjects.

The very fact that they're co-existing with the Reapers without issue demonstrates that their mental states have been altered.
EDI even begins to speak as Sovereign did about herself. The implication is clear.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:00 .

[Vigilant111]

lx_theo wrote...

No, it blends Synthetics and Organics into one group. All species are still that species, albeit the technology now apart of them. They are still definitively them. So, physically they still have a very good amount of the ones they had before.

It also doesn't change how they think. Proof? The Catalyst said that the solution failed in the past because people were ready for it. It means that it doesn't just imbed the reaper logic into their heads.

Nah, biology does not work like that, phenotype must reflect genotype

The way of thinking is changed because reasoning is altered by allegedly gaining more undestanding, no more trust needed, no more gambling

[alienatedflea]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Fans of synthesis keep on insisting that synthesis is not a Disney-like utopian pipe dream and that free will is not compromised by indoctrination or another form of mind control.

If that is true then wouldn't the following be possible?

Infected Wrex: Hey Harby, I've discovered that the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy is only 25,000 light-years away from Sol.
Infected Harby: Can't you see I am busy building a penthouse for Liara?
Infected Wrex: But I am bored and it is full of organics.
Infected Harby: Organics you say? Sounds interesting. But it's too far.
Infected Wrex: You travel at 30 light-years a day. That's only 833 days. Must be doable. And I hate babysitting.
Infected Harby: So be it!

Or does the utopia of synthesis prevents aggression? The reapers' extremely violent behavior didn't prevent it in the past. If the hypothetical synthetics threat is true wouldn't that cause one intergalactic war after another in the future? Soon the reapers fill the universe. All because it is "inevitable"?

Nice story...wont happen

[AngryFrozenWater]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sorry but when you start a new society based around xenophobia, then xenophobia will be the order of the day. Now add onto that that they're now convinced synthesis is perfect (listen to how EDI talks).

They will allow the Reapers to carry on their agenda because *they now think as the Reapers do*.

Yes. Cyclical genocide didn't work as a solution for the hypothetical inevitable threat, so let's try another solution which doesn't require genocide. Hey! Let's remove the differences between those races. That way people may think it is not racist and perhaps they even think it is a good idea, because the alternative is worse. The fear the reapers have thrown around for aeons finally paid off. They won and Shepard surrendered. Leaving behind everything she fought for: From diversity to the right of self-determination. Even Shepard is dead to create an uprising. Isn't that wonderful?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:03 .

[lx_theo]

Vigilant111 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

No, it blends Synthetics and Organics into one group. All species are still that species, albeit the technology now apart of them. They are still definitively them. So, physically they still have a very good amount of the ones they had before.

It also doesn't change how they think. Proof? The Catalyst said that the solution failed in the past because people were ready for it. It means that it doesn't just imbed the reaper logic into their heads.

Nah, biology does not work like that, phenotype must reflect genotype

The way of thinking is changed because reasoning is altered by allegedly gaining more undestanding, no more trust needed, no more gambling

Given they all still looked lik each species, I'd say the phenotype, genotype part holds well enough.

Yes, by gaining enough understanding to ensure empathy, it stops each from wiping the other out in conflicts. Not by altering how they think to their core, though. That's unreasonable.

Modifié par lx_theo, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:06 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

alienatedflea wrote...

Nice story...wont happen

Thanks. Why not? Why isn't inevitable?

[inko1nsiderate]

Vigilant111 wrote...


Nah, biology does not work like that, phenotype must reflect genotype

What about epigenetic phenomenon?

[lx_theo]

The Angry One wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sorry but when you start a new society based around xenophobia, then xenophobia will be the order of the day. Now add onto that that they're now convinced synthesis is perfect (listen to how EDI talks).

They will allow the Reapers to carry on their agenda because *they now think as the Reapers do*.

That stinks of lacking logic. A society MAY be all for it if the actually governing bodies were the ones making that decisions and were the ones continuing to govern it. But this decision and change has nothing to do with how the people will go forward and make their society. They could embrace any policy in regards to pure organics and synthetics.

You speak of governing bodies when synthesis was forced on everyone without their consent?
Do you honestly think the people have a say in this?

They do not think like the Reapers. There is zero proof of this whatsoever. It has no effect on any of these subjects.

The very fact that they're co-existing with the Reapers without issue demonstrates that their mental states have been altered.
EDI even begins to speak as Sovereign did about herself. The implication is clear.

Once the initial smoke clears? Of course they have a say in it. One choice that changes them all does not destroy all governing bodies they already have. Obviously, if they were even to cooperate with the Reapers, the Reapers would have had to been accepting of their beliefs as their's to choose.


No, it doesn't show anything about their mental states. All it measn is that the Reapers were willing to accept their differences enough for each side to work together.


And I don't see this apparently huge parallel with EDI that signals that this MUST be true (lol). So feel free to to try adn show that.

[Vigilant111]

@inko1nsiderate: u are implying that synthesis is an epigenetic phenomenon? then I don't think the chracteristics would last

Modifié par Vigilant111, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:37 .

[lx_theo]

Fandango9641 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...


No, I'm just suggesting a force that eliminates the need for a cycle. If a situation gets to the point that either side might be wiped out (the problem the cycle was supposed to fix), they could step in and stop that. I'm speeching more a minimalist police force that only enters when absolutely needed, not something that changes how they live their life anything more than that one thing.

Ignoring the fact that those nailing their colours to the Synthesis mast have already chosen their 'solution' to that particular problem, you (despite the vagueness of your proposition) are still talking in terms of having to police synthetic and organic life. And all this to make the best case for a synthetic future?

You assume they couldn't respect choice, Sure they didn't get to choose, but that could just as easily send them in a direction that makes sure everyone gets that choice as it would forcing the choice.

I'm sorry, I dont understand.

I'm countering the idea that the Synthesis hybrids must have accepted Synthesis as the only solution with the idea that it can envoke a respect of their choice just as much as it can envoke the want to force it on others.

As for the second part... Yeah, its a police force. Just the same as the UN is on Earth. I don't really see the porblem in that sense.

Modifié par lx_theo, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:15 .

[KingZayd]

IscrewTali wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

tettenjager wrote...

i dont think they will become evil or anything, it is not stated anywhere in the epilogue that they feel superior or have a lust to inslave organics and synthetics

Synthesis is partly based on the idea that organics are chaos, and chaos is oh so bad.

So what happens when a wild organic appears?

From another galaxy? You know the closest galaxy might be millions of light years away. Only way for travel across galaxies is to have a mass relay on the other side, but to do that you must have someone to build it.

Do it the Stargate way: Add a load of Mass Relays along the way. Eventually you'll have a Mass Relay bridge between galaxies that doesn't take very long at all. We already know the Reapers have at least 1 relay out there (connects to Citadel Relay)

[AngryFrozenWater]

Fandango9641 wrote...

So if I reject the idea of synthesis before Casper paints the galaxy green, will I do so afterwards? Assuming I dont, I no longer have free will. Assuming I do, the cycle continues.

Well, if you do not choose synthesis then you are nothing but a stubborn child. It doesn't matter which other option you chose. Another decision will just mean a delay for synthesis.

Child: It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:22 .

[tettenjager]

The Angry One wrote...

tettenjager wrote...

i dont think they will become evil or anything, it is not stated anywhere in the epilogue that they feel superior or have a lust to inslave organics and synthetics

Synthesis is partly based on the idea that organics are chaos, and chaos is oh so bad.

So what happens when a wild organic appears?

1. There must be life in another galaxy. Bioware never gives us hints or proof that this is true, so we can only speculate about this.
2. They need intergalactic travel, which on this point they dont have. Galaxies are milions of lightyears away from us, even with FTL it would take long, far to long. Because in the void there would be no way to refuel or discharge the core. Sure you could say: "well if they can merge organic and synthetic, why not this?" But then i can say :" they seemed to rebuild and are peacefull, why would they go on a universe-wide killing spree?"
3. This is nitpicking, if you don't like this ending, then don't pick it. I like it, it solves the problem that the catalyst was made for and it progresses our galaxy.

[AngryFrozenWater]

tettenjager wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

tettenjager wrote...

i dont think they will become evil or anything, it is not stated anywhere in the epilogue that they feel superior or have a lust to inslave organics and synthetics

Synthesis is partly based on the idea that organics are chaos, and chaos is oh so bad.

So what happens when a wild organic appears?

1. There must be life in another galaxy. Bioware never gives us hints or proof that this is true, so we can only speculate about this.
2. They need intergalactic travel, which on this point they dont have. Galaxies are milions of lightyears away from us, even with FTL it would take long, far to long. Because in the void there would be no way to refuel or discharge the core. Sure you could say: "well if they can merge organic and synthetic, why not this?" But then i can say :" they seemed to rebuild and are peacefull, why would they go on a universe-wide killing spree?"
3. This is nitpicking, if you don't like this ending, then don't pick it. I like it, it solves the problem that the catalyst was made for and it progresses our galaxy.

1. True. If the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy doesn't contain life we just go to the next one.

2. No. It doesn't take long at all. My calculations are correct. Based on a reaper's current speed, 30 light-years a day, the nearest galaxy, just 25,000 light-years away, can be reached in 833 days and 8 hours.

3. Sorry. It isn't nitpicking. It is inevitable.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:45 .

[lx_theo]

Fandango9641 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...


I'm countering the idea that the Synthesis hybrids must have accepted Synthesis as the only solution with the idea that it can envoke a respect of their choice just as much as it can envoke the want to force it on others.

As for the second part... Yeah, its a police force. Just the same as the UN is on Earth. I don't really see the porblem in that sense.

What is it about the in game presentation of synthesis that could possibly make you think its a choice that respects diversity, self determination, natural evolution and free will? Did we play the same game? And please stop trying to draw parallels between the UN and your synthetic police state.

I'm thinking you went into the ending with a pretty made up mind then. Nothing about the ending suggests that they enbraced the Reaper's ideology. Nothing about it sayas how they all reacted before came ot accept the change. There is no definitive way they could have reacted.

One way they could have easily was anger. Even if you come to accept a change, you can harbor bitterness against not being able to choose for yourself. That could easily lead to policies in always allowing species to have the choice because they wished they did at the time. 

And yes, I'll keep using the UN comparison. Why? Because it can very easily turn out like that. Why? Because nothing says it can't. Nothing says they won't be that type of people who set that up. 

Will these not be true? Just as easily as they can be. The points I'm making are that there is nothing that suggests that they will become homicidal and unquestionably arrogant, as well as to suggest that these hybrids will be peaceloving and free willing embracing. To suggest that anyone outcome is more likely is idiotic, because neither has any real evidence one way or the other.

[tettenjager]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


1. True. If the the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy doesn't contain life we just go to the next one.

2. No. It doesn't take long at all. My calculations are correct. Based on a reaper's current speed, 30 light-years a day, the nearest galaxy, just 25,000 light-years away, can be reached in 833 days and 8 hours.

3. Sorry. It isn't nitpicking. It is inevitable.

1. If their galaxy is a utiopia, why go somewhere else?

2. Im going to take your word on that, but still 833 days seems like a long time to go without fuel or discharge, but this is speculation so lets ignore this.

3. where does the synthesis ending say :"we are going to evole everyone or kill everyone"? Its just your interpretation, and im not saying its false, but you can not disproof my claim that they will not be universal overlords. 

[Vigilant111]

tettenjager wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


1. True. If the the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy doesn't contain life we just go to the next one.

2. No. It doesn't take long at all. My calculations are correct. Based on a reaper's current speed, 30 light-years a day, the nearest galaxy, just 25,000 light-years away, can be reached in 833 days and 8 hours.

3. Sorry. It isn't nitpicking. It is inevitable.

1. If their galaxy is a utiopia, why go somewhere else?

2. Im going to take your word on that, but still 833 days seems like a long time to go without fuel or discharge, but this is speculation so lets ignore this.

3. where does the synthesis ending say :"we are going to evole everyone or kill everyone"? Its just your interpretation, and im not saying its false, but you can not disproof my claim that they will not be universal overlords. 

The potential of becoming overlords must be removed, just like your justistification for synthesis that potential for organic/synthetic conflicts must be removed

[AngryFrozenWater]

tettenjager wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


1. True. If the the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy doesn't contain life we just go to the next one.

2. No. It doesn't take long at all. My calculations are correct. Based on a reaper's current speed, 30 light-years a day, the nearest galaxy, just 25,000 light-years away, can be reached in 833 days and 8 hours.

3. Sorry. It isn't nitpicking. It is inevitable.

1. If their galaxy is a utiopia, why go somewhere else?

2. Im going to take your word on that, but still 833 days seems like a long time to go without fuel or discharge, but this is speculation so lets ignore this.

3. where does the synthesis ending say :"we are going to evole everyone or kill everyone"? Its just your interpretation, and im not saying its false, but you can not disproof my claim that they will not be universal overlords.

1. No. You didn't read the original post well, did you? Fans claim it is not utopia.

2. Well, we are promised a great future in synthesis. I forgot which advanced civilization level we need (Type III, anyone?), but I am sure that on our way to transcendence it allows things like that. Or just take more fuel with you.

3. The brat dreamed up two rules: The inevitable synthetics threat and the inevitability of synthesis. Sorry. But there you have it. It's all inevitable, you see.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 12:01 .

[lx_theo]

Fandango9641 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...


I'm countering the idea that the Synthesis hybrids must have accepted Synthesis as the only solution with the idea that it can envoke a respect of their choice just as much as it can envoke the want to force it on others.

As for the second part... Yeah, its a police force. Just the same as the UN is on Earth. I don't really see the porblem in that sense.

What is it about the in game presentation of synthesis that could possibly make you think its a choice that respects diversity, self determination, natural evolution and free will? Did we play the same game? And please stop trying to draw parallels between the UN and your synthetic police state.

I'm thinking you went into the ending with a pretty made up mind then. Nothing about the ending suggests that they enbraced the Reaper's ideology. Nothing about it sayas how they all reacted before came ot accept the change. There is no definitive way they could have reacted.

One way they could have easily was anger. Even if you come to accept a change, you can harbor bitterness against not being able to choose for yourself. That could easily lead to policies in always allowing species to have the choice because they wished they did at the time. 

And yes, I'll keep using the UN comparison. Why? Because it can very easily turn out like that. Why? Because nothing says it can't. Nothing says they won't be that type of people who set that up. 

Will these not be true? Just as easily as they can be. The points I'm making are that there is nothing that suggests that they will become homicidal and unquestionably arrogant, as well as to suggest that these hybrids will be peaceloving and free willing embracing. To suggest that anyone outcome is more likely is idiotic, because neither has any real evidence one way or the other.

You're on your arse. The logic underpinning the choice you made literally precludes most of the ideas you are advancing in this thread. Clearly synthesis is less about respecting diversity than it is about the subjugation of all forms of intelligent life. It's really that simple, despite your schizophrenic head cannon.

I really don't think you understand what schizophrenia is... 

Other than your mental shortcomings, all that sounds incredibly stupid. Do you understand that even if Shepard thinks that, it has no bearing on the rest of the galaxy? He has no control, the reapers don't have control... The people and their governing bodies have control. It doesn't matter what synthesis is about, because the people decide how they move forward with the new change.

But if you want to actually treat one opinion and one interpretation as absolute fact, be my guest. That actually does fall under delusions mind you.