Sarevok Synder wrote...
Heeden wrote...
Their "created" was the Catalyst, and he turned them in to the first Reaper against their wishes.
And this helps justify its actions how? It still committed mass murder for an imagined threat that its solution wouldn't be successful against in the long run anyway.
Wayning_Star wrote...
the creators of the reaperkid and ships didn't 'win' per se, they were destroyed and reaped by the reaperkid. The reaperkids programming was to continue with the reaping to prevent chaos, the very thing that the creators didn't want, because they started the chaos when they build the reaperkid. That was the start of the cycle. The reaperkid doesn't need a reason, he has programming to rely on. The reaperkid isn't fully sentient, cannot make 'decisions', only follow protocalls, apparently ending chaos as one of thoes. Your position on this is untenable regarding synthesis, as it's not associatiate with it in any way. Starbrat fallibility is irrelavent. Everyone knows it's flawed as it's stuck in that logic loop ending chaos by creating chaos as we know it. Synthesis is only one choice given to it from the crucible from prothiean technology sheppard invoked in thier meeting. After that it was in the hands of Sheppard to decide from those choices. Not the creators or the reaperkid.
Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:51 .
The problem is that the brat didn't have a large enough vision. The universe is incredibly big. However, the brat only protected its own galaxy and forgot about the rest. Instead of building a force of extraordinary magnitude the brat destroyed it every 50,000 years. If the reapers only kept the synthetics down then the civilzation here could have been 1 billion years old. Then we would have had a chance.Heeden wrote...
@Snyde and Angry
The only conclusion I can draw from your concerns is that the Catalyst's creators were wrong to try to prevent conflict between organics and synthetics. Instead they should have laid down and died so synthetics could fortify our galaxy against the possible threat coming from outside.
I guess you could be right, but clearly at the time they felt differently. Maybe they didn't expect their ideas to end up with the Reaper cycle or maybe they just didn't think extra-galactic threats were a likelihoodTheir "created" was the Catalyst, and he turned them in to the first Reaper against their wishes.They clearly had a war with Synthetics in the first place, if they didn't why would they have bother creating Starbrat? Sheesh....
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:56 .
Sarevok Synder wrote...
They won against the Synthetics before Starbrat was created, this is the reason for its creation, it said it was to mediate.
They never gave it the instruction to Reap, it came up with that all on its own, it even said it turned them into a Reaper against their will. Does this sound like they instructed it to Reap organics? It's his "solution," nobody gave it to him. He's a flawed AI using bad logic to justify its sorry existence, nothing more.
Sarevok Synder wrote...
Heeden wrote...
Their "created" was the Catalyst, and he turned them in to the first Reaper against their wishes.
And this helps justify its actions how? It still committed mass murder for an imagined threat that its solution wouldn't be successful against in the long run anyway.
Heeden wrote...
Sarevok Synder wrote...
Heeden wrote...
Their "created" was the Catalyst, and he turned them in to the first Reaper against their wishes.
And this helps justify its actions how? It still committed mass murder for an imagined threat that its solution wouldn't be successful against in the long run anyway.
Really, what are you talking about? You're claiming the Catalyst's creators didn't lose to their creation, I pointed out that they did, and the Catalyst confesses to it. Please pay attention.
: they weren't still around to create it?
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The problem is that the brat didn't have a large enough vision. The universe is incredibly big. However, the brat only protected its own galaxy and forgot about the rest. Instead of building a force of extraordinary magnitude the brat destroyed it every 50,000 years. If the reapers only kept the synthetics down then the civilzation here could have been 1 billion years old. Then we would have had a chance.
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The problem is that the brat didn't have a large enough vision. The universe is incredibly big. However, the brat only protected its own galaxy and forgot about the rest. Instead of building a force of extraordinary magnitude the brat destroyed it every 50,000 years. If the reapers only kept the synthetics down then the civilzation here could have been 1 billion years old. Then we would have had a chance.Heeden wrote...
@Snyde and Angry
The only conclusion I can draw from your concerns is that the Catalyst's creators were wrong to try to prevent conflict between organics and synthetics. Instead they should have laid down and died so synthetics could fortify our galaxy against the possible threat coming from outside.
I guess you could be right, but clearly at the time they felt differently. Maybe they didn't expect their ideas to end up with the Reaper cycle or maybe they just didn't think extra-galactic threats were a likelihoodTheir "created" was the Catalyst, and he turned them in to the first Reaper against their wishes.They clearly had a war with Synthetics in the first place, if they didn't why would they have bother creating Starbrat? Sheesh....
Wayning_Star wrote...
that's probably why we rely on Sheppard and prothien technology to end the cycle. Nothing justifies the reaperkids activities,mass murder or otherwise. "It" cannot commit murder, it's only a fancy toaster with unlimited power given it by it's creators by hap'n stance. What this page was about is the question wether Synthesis could be considered an intergalactic threat, not if reaperkid is competent to stand trial. No one is justifying it's actions, they are considering the best case scenerio for stopping it's actions by installing updated software designed by Prothieans.
Sarevok Synder wrote...
I didn't say anything about them not losing to Starbrat. I'm saying they clearly had a war with Synthetics before Starbrats creation and won or at least scored a draw, which is the logical conclusion, since why would they create it to prevent future wars between the two, if (A): there was no perceived threat to begin with and (
That fact that they weren't wiped out should have shown Starbrat it wasn't inevitable that Synthetics will wipe out Organics, but no... it went and killed them anyway, thus starting its "solution."
Sarevok Synder wrote...
I didn't say anything about them not losing to Starbrat. I'm saying they clearly had a war with Synthetics before Starbrats creation and won or at least scored a draw, which is the logical conclusion, since why would they create it to prevent future wars between the two, if (A): there was no perceived threat to begin with and (Heeden wrote...
Sarevok Synder wrote...
Heeden wrote...
Their "created" was the Catalyst, and he turned them in to the first Reaper against their wishes.
And this helps justify its actions how? It still committed mass murder for an imagined threat that its solution wouldn't be successful against in the long run anyway.
Really, what are you talking about? You're claiming the Catalyst's creators didn't lose to their creation, I pointed out that they did, and the Catalyst confesses to it. Please pay attention.
That fact that they weren't wiped out should have shown Starbrat it wasn't inevitable that Synthetics will wipe out Organics, but nooooooo..... it went and killed them anyway, thus starting its "solution."
Heeden wrote...
The creators instructed the Catalyst to find a solution, but by creating an AI greater than themselves they made an entity they could not fully predict, hence they became Reaperised. If anything this is evidence of the inevitability of conflict between created and creators even when the creators are aware of potential problems.
Nah. Currently there are 170 billion galaxies. And that's as far as we can see. I googled that up a few minutes ago. Ghehe. That's not a handful. And according to the ME lore each 50K years the reapers can harvest a couple of civilizations just in ours. Can you imagine what happens in the other 170 billion (-1) ones where there are no reapers?Heeden wrote...
Like I said, the creators of the Catalyst didn't consider an extra-galactic invasion worthy of their attention. Maybe they didn't think about it, maybe they thought the probability was so small it wasn't worth bothering about or maybe they planned to deal with the idea once the organic-synthetic problem was dealt with.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The problem is that the brat didn't have a large enough vision. The universe is incredibly big. However, the brat only protected its own galaxy and forgot about the rest. Instead of building a force of extraordinary magnitude the brat destroyed it every 50,000 years. If the reapers only kept the synthetics down then the civilzation here could have been 1 billion years old. Then we would have had a chance.
When planning the war against the Reapers we didn't consider the possibility of extra-galactic invasion but I don't see you criticising Hackett, Anderson etc. for their limited vision.
The Council even had problems with believing in 1 reaper. Let alone a whole fleet.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:22 .
Wayning_Star wrote...
I don't believe the reaperkid had "vision", only that protocol aversion to chaos. That arguement about a billion years old defense mechinism provides support for synthesis, as the MEU gains, at least some of, that lost talent.
So the possibilty that it might have gained a little additional knowledge and then pass it on through Synthesis justifies wiping out an entire race?! Any additional knowledge gained is nothing short of blood money!Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 07 juillet 2012 - 12:12 .
Wayning_Star wrote...
That fact that they weren't wiped out should have shown Starbrat it wasn't inevitable that Synthetics will wipe out Organics, but nooooooo..... it went and killed them anyway, thus starting its "solution."
nope, you missed the plot line again..or created one to fit your version of the MEU.. soo sad
Heeden wrote...
Please, where are you getting this information from? All we know is they had reasons to believe the conflict is inevitable. It is more likely they know this from seeing other civilisations getting extinguished than from it happening to their own, because if they were extinguished they wouldn't have been able to conceive the problem because they would be dead.
The creators believed the conflict was inevitable which is why they programmed that assertion in to the Crucible. The Crucible, acting on that programming, went on to create good evidence that it is true.
Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:24 .
Sarevok Synder wrote...
It may have had greater power than them, but it certainly wasn't smarter.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:28 .
Sarevok Synder wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
that's probably why we rely on Sheppard and prothien technology to end the cycle. Nothing justifies the reaperkids activities,mass murder or otherwise. "It" cannot commit murder, it's only a fancy toaster with unlimited power given it by it's creators by hap'n stance. What this page was about is the question wether Synthesis could be considered an intergalactic threat, not if reaperkid is competent to stand trial. No one is justifying it's actions, they are considering the best case scenerio for stopping it's actions by installing updated software designed by Prothieans.
No you're just arguing semantics. Whether you think its murder or not, just because it's an because it's an AI, doesn't change the fact it killed trillions, and there is no way in hell I'll let it get away with that. I certainly won't be joining with any flawed "toasters." Destroy
The Protheans didn't create the crucible, they found the plans, much like we did. There is also no evidence that they knew what it did.
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nah. Currently there are 170 billion galaxies. And that's as far as we can see. I googled that up a few minutes ago. Ghehe. That's not a handful. And according to the ME lore each 50K years the reapers can harvest a couple of civilizations just in ours. Can you imagine what happens in the other 170 billion (-1) ones where there are no reapers?
Edit: About Anderson and such. We are busy to stay alive here. That already was a problem.
Heeden wrote...
Like I said, the creators of the Catalyst didn't consider an extra-galactic invasion worthy of their attention. Maybe they didn't think about it, maybe they thought the probability was so small it wasn't worth bothering about or maybe they planned to deal with the idea once the organic-synthetic problem was dealt with.
When planning the war against the Reapers we didn't consider the possibility of extra-galactic invasion but I don't see you criticising Hackett, Anderson etc. for their limited vision.
Heeden wrote...
Sarevok Synder wrote...
It may have had greater power than them, but it certainly wasn't smarter.
Again, please provide a link to where you are getting all this information from.
Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 07 juillet 2012 - 11:55 .
Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:34 .
Sarevok Synder wrote...
Why is it more likely? If that were the case it still isn't inevitable as they were still there to create Starbrat. They will destroy all life, remember?
There is no evidence that its true, for it to be proven true it would have to happen, meaning there would be no Organics left, this is good evidence that it is not true.
Sarevok Synder wrote...
That's not the issue, the plan could never work. Whether they had taken the other galaxies into account or not. It would be logistically impossible to police the whole universe. This is why the catalyst should never have done what it did. It killed trillions for a solution that couldn't work. It was never a solution. It failed completely, its entire existence was pointless.
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