982 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarevok Synder]

Wayning_Star wrote...



they developed it over the many cycles of the reaper returns.They didn't get a chance to invoke it cause the illusive man avatar at the time interfered with them on a control the reapers head trip. The asari found it. Besides, what does any of that have to do with synthesis. Nothing, of course you'll ignore that and return to some other 'chicken little' argumentitive about AI infalibility related to extra-galactic threats foiling the reaperkids train of thought, of which it doesn't have.

They developed it over many cycles, and none knew what it did. That rest of what you "wrote" makes no sense.

I'm demonstrating that its logic is broken, its solution can't work and there is no reason to believe its prediction. So why the hell would I want to join  with it or the Reapers?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nah. Currently there are 170 billion galaxies. And that's as far as we can see. I googled that up a few minutes ago. Ghehe. That's not a handful.  And according to the ME lore each 50K years the reapers can harvest a couple of civilizations just in ours. Can you imagine what happens in the other 170 billion (-1) ones where there are no reapers?

Edit: About Anderson and such. We are busy to stay alive here. That already was a problem. The Council even had problems with believing in 1 reaper. Let alone a whole fleet.

Exactly, the Catalyst's creators didn't bother trying to imagine what might be happening in the other 170 billion galaxies becaue it wasn't relevant to the problem they had in hand, exactly the same as our commanders and indeed pretty much every problem anyone has ever faced, ever.

It is a problem that can be dealt with in sci-fi, but it has no relevance in ME. It's like expecting Gandalf to organise a PDF against alien invasions in LotR.

*choked in coffee* That's an awfull lot of galaxies, man. You can't shove those under the table.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:35 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



It's difficult continuing this discussion when you either have a new source of information about the Catalyst's creators, or you're pulling stuff out of your ass and stating it as fact.

The Catalyst tells us his creators had good reason to believe synthetics would inevitably displace their creators. If they had in fact had a machine-war and won they wouldn't believe this, therefore I assume they learned this lesson from observing other civilisations.

If they had been wiped out by machines they wouldn't be able to create the Catalyst.

The other alternative is they created the Catalyst during the machine war to try bringing about peace, but ultimately fell victim to their creation, but the end result is the same.

Why should I believe any of its claims about it being inevitable. Its logic is flawed, it solution won't work, it wiped out it creators? All we have is its word, no I'm not buying it.
You're not selling this whole joining with it and the Reapers very well.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



Yet the plan did work, organic life still exists in the galaxy. If it didn't there wouldn't be a ME game at all because everyone would be dead.

And what evidence do you have that life exists in the Galaxy simply because the Staridiot is around? Just its word?
 
And the plan won't work indefinitely, as I've shown, that's assuming its correct, and all we have is its word on that.

[Mystiq6]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nah. Currently there are 170 billion galaxies. And that's as far as we can see. I googled that up a few minutes ago. Ghehe. That's not a handful.  And according to the ME lore each 50K years the reapers can harvest a couple of civilizations just in ours. Can you imagine what happens in the other 170 billion (-1) ones where there are no reapers?

Edit: About Anderson and such. We are busy to stay alive here. That already was a problem. The Council even had problems with believing in 1 reaper. Let alone a whole fleet.

Exactly, the Catalyst's creators didn't bother trying to imagine what might be happening in the other 170 billion galaxies becaue it wasn't relevant to the problem they had in hand, exactly the same as our commanders and indeed pretty much every problem anyone has ever faced, ever.

It is a problem that can be dealt with in sci-fi, but it has no relevance in ME. It's like expecting Gandalf to organise a PDF against alien invasions in LotR.

*choked in coffee* That's an awfull lot of galaxies, man. You can't shove those under the table.

I don't think you can discount 170,000,000,000 known galaxies. Who knows where the reapers go during their 50,000 year hibernation, and what other galaxies have done for this supposedly universal inevitability of synthetics wiping out organics?

Take this out of game context and put it in real life. This is just a theme of racism. As much as I dislike the ending, the themes of the game are something real and actually carry a decent message, unlike most games. Take the Cold War and pick a side. Maybe Russia are the organics and the US are the synthetics. Russia and the US nearly had a war that would have wiped out a good chunk of the planet if everyone began firing atomic bombs on each other. Ultimately, someone understood that wiping each other out wouldn't be good for anyone and we made peace without creating an AI.

I don't know about you but it looks like history is slowly starting to repeat itself, this time with a different set of countries. If the Catalyst is correct, this conflict is going to happen at any time, anywhere and with anyone. Thankfully, human history has so far proved him wrong, at least on a smaller time scale. (We'll brush the Holocaust under the table for now.)

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

*choked in coffee* That's an awfull lot of galaxies, man. You can't shove those under the table.

Don't tell me, tell Hackett and Anderson. Why are we trying to take earth back when there are 170 billion galaxies out there that we know nothing about, but might have a hostile force who might use up all the local resources and might come to ours for a war?

I bet politics IRL annoy you too - why are we bothered about the economy when there are 170 billion galaxies out there? Why are they brushed under the table when there's so many of them?

[Mystiq6]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

*choked in coffee* That's an awfull lot of galaxies, man. You can't shove those under the table.

Don't tell me, tell Hackett and Anderson. Why are we trying to take earth back when there are 170 billion galaxies out there that we know nothing about, but might have a hostile force who might use up all the local resources and might come to ours for a war?

I bet politics IRL annoy you too - why are we bothered about the economy when there are 170 billion galaxies out there? Why are they brushed under the table when there's so many of them?

In what context do you want them brushed or not brushed under the table? In the context of Earth's current economic instability or in the context of the reapers' mission in Mass Effect?

It makes sense to count them only in the context of the Catalyst's argument.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:46 .

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

You're not selling this whole joining with it and the Reapers very well.

I didn't realise I was supposed to be selling Synthesis to you, your poor grasp of ME in general and this in particular makes it a particularly tricky proposition and not one I'd really like to take up.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



I didn't realise I was supposed to be selling Synthesis to you, your poor grasp of ME in general and this in particular makes it a particularly tricky proposition and not one I'd really like to take up.

Oh but you are trying to sell it, why else are you here?

I agree, I've a very poor view of your grasp of ME.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Mystiq6 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nah. Currently there are 170 billion galaxies. And that's as far as we can see. I googled that up a few minutes ago. Ghehe. That's not a handful.  And according to the ME lore each 50K years the reapers can harvest a couple of civilizations just in ours. Can you imagine what happens in the other 170 billion (-1) ones where there are no reapers?

Edit: About Anderson and such. We are busy to stay alive here. That already was a problem. The Council even had problems with believing in 1 reaper. Let alone a whole fleet.

Exactly, the Catalyst's creators didn't bother trying to imagine what might be happening in the other 170 billion galaxies becaue it wasn't relevant to the problem they had in hand, exactly the same as our commanders and indeed pretty much every problem anyone has ever faced, ever.

It is a problem that can be dealt with in sci-fi, but it has no relevance in ME. It's like expecting Gandalf to organise a PDF against alien invasions in LotR.

*choked in coffee* That's an awfull lot of galaxies, man. You can't shove those under the table.

I don't think you can discount 170,000,000,000 known galaxies. Who knows where the reapers go during their 50,000 year hibernation, and what other galaxies have done for this supposedly universal inevitability of synthetics wiping out organics?

Take this out of game context and put it in real life. This is just a theme of racism. Take the Cold War and pick a side. Maybe Russia are the organics and the US are the synthetics. Russia and the US nearly had a war that would have wiped out a good chunk of the planet if everyone began firing atomic bombs on each other. Ultimately, someone understood that wiping each other out wouldn't be good for anyone and we made peace without creating an AI.

I don't know about you but it looks like history is slowly starting to repeat itself, this time with a different set of countries. If the Catalyst is correct, this conflict is going to happen at any time, anywhere and with anyone. Thankfully, human history has so far proved him wrong, at least on a smaller time scale.

I do not believe that synthesis is going to prevent anything. I think that if there is free will and synthesis is no utopia then the reapers or at least some will cause havoc somewhere. If it is not here in this galaxy then somewhere else. If synthesis is no utopia then don't expect it to behave like utopia.

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I do not believe that synthesis is going to prevent anything. I think that if there is free will and synthesis is no utopia then the reapers or at least some will cause havoc somewhere. If it is not here in this galaxy then somewhere else. If synthesis is no utopia then don't expect it to behave like utopia.

Indeed there may be havoc and it could come from any one of a number of sources. Synthesis is more likely to prevent this than Control and Destroy though and I still have no idea where your sudden fixation on other galaxies comes from.

[Mystiq6]

Well, at least someone agrees with someone. I don't think Synthesis would be a utopia, either. I know I'm plugging my thread twice, but you two need to read this:
Mass Effect 4 + Synthesis as the canon ending = Awesome?

Some or more of the galaxy recognizes what Shepard did and why. Least of all, the Catalyst might reveal himself to the galaxy and explain the reason behind Synthesis. Immediately, people might rebel against the mere idea of Synthesis because it was suggested to Shepard by the Catalyst. Shepard's name might become tarnished.

The power hungry races of the Milky Way (yahg or vorcha, for example) begin to travel to other galaxies and threaten them with synthesis while counter groups seek to hunt down and destroy these "embassy parties" before they can do anything significant.

Organic sympathizers are trying to recreate pure organics faster than nature would, which might take a billion years. Maybe salarians manage to create purely organic baby salarians in test tubes. Some factions are creating synthetics again. The Catalyst is probably having a hernia at this thought: his perfect solution is being undone before his very -- cameras? Groups spring up over the ethical arguments of whether Synthesis was a good thing or bad thing. Should we be able to live forever? Does pure organic or pure synthetic life have any right to exist when one or the other will get wiped out due to "inevitable" conflict? (This plays very well into the racism theme prevalent throughout ME1-3.)

In an attempt to destroy both the Catalyst and punish humanity for Shepard, a group of probably batarians drags the Citadel to Sol and pushes it into the Sun, with the help of the reapers who managed to break free of Catalyst control, destroying the entire star system. Humans are now left with no homeworld and, while the reapers are thankful to no longer be under the Catalyst's control, they regret the loss of Earth.

Worse, hints of a synthetic race from another galaxy stronger than even the reapers have been roaming around for the past couple years. Synthetic sympathizers believe Synthesis is the only thing that might help us stop them. "Puritans" (people who want to go back to when pure synthetics and pure organics existed) believe that if the reapers never did what they did, organics and synthetics working together could match and beat the coming threat.

Millions or even billions of people ("semi-synthetic" and "semi-organic" alike) have probably killed themselves because they hate what they have become. Synthesis sympathizers imprison or try to "re-program" these suicidal people to get them to accept Synthesis. Other factions spring up that simply just want to wipe out all life in the Milky Way because they think Synthesis is just an abomination.

Some groups have tried to come up with plans to modify the Crucible to undo Synthesis, which is happening in complete secret. The player, a pure organic born in a test tube, could be part of this faction and might be under a mission to resurrect Shepard in some form. Some people hear this is possible and want him to answer for his crimes against the galaxy. And perhaps, in a nod to IT, we learn that Shepard was indoctrinated and didn't pick Synthesis of his own free will.

Let's get completely crazy and say that the Catalyst had backups of himself elsewhere to prevent his destruction. The player finds out he is now controlling the external threat and we learn his real motive: he's okay killing others but believes he should be immortal and oversee the galaxy like a God.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I do not believe that synthesis is going to prevent anything. I think that if there is free will and synthesis is no utopia then the reapers or at least some will cause havoc somewhere. If it is not here in this galaxy then somewhere else. If synthesis is no utopia then don't expect it to behave like utopia.

Indeed there may be havoc and it could come from any one of a number of sources. Synthesis is more likely to prevent this than Control and Destroy though and I still have no idea where your sudden fixation on other galaxies comes from.

Remember I made a thread about it?

And you wouldn't have someone to talk to. Ghehe. Seriously:

Because if it is inevitable then it must be inevitable everywhere. There is no fence around the galaxy with a sign that says "The Threat stops here!"

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:59 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



Indeed there may be havoc and it could come from any one of a number of sources. Synthesis is more likely to prevent this than Control and Destroy though and I still have no idea where your sudden fixation on other galaxies comes from.

It has been explained to you many times, I'm not repeating it again. All  we have that there is anything to "prevent," is the word of a mass murdering illogical AI. Call me crazy but I'm not joining with that or its toys.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:08 .

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

It been explained to you many times, I'm not repeating it again. All  we have that there is anything to "prevent," is the word of a mass murdering illogical AI. Call me crazy but I'm not joining with that or its toys.

That's fine, don't trust the Catalyst. I'm sure there's a nice corner you can sit in whilst the cycle continues and everything you've ever known and loved burns.

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Because if it is inevitable then it must be inevitable everywhere. There is no fence around the galaxy with a sign that says "The Threat stops here!"

No, there is no sign, but the synthetic-organic conflict beyond our galaxy is the business of synthetics and organics who live out there.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


That's fine, don't trust the Catalyst. I'm sure there's a nice corner you can sit in whilst the cycle continues and everything you've ever known and loved burns.

No, I blew it to hell. Who knows what the future will bring. All one can do is take each situation as it comes, I'm not taking the word of a genocidal, circular logic using AI that there is anything inevitable about my fate.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:09 .

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

No, I blew it to hell. Who knows what the future will bring. All one can do is take each situation as it comes, I'm not taking the word of a genocidal, circular logic using AI that there is anything inevitable about my fate.

Yet you took its word on the shooting the thingy = Destroy the Reapers. You don't believe what it says apart from when it is pointing out its own weakness, knowing that you went there with destructive intent.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Because if it is inevitable then it must be inevitable everywhere. There is no fence around the galaxy with a sign that says "The Threat stops here!"

No, there is no sign, but the synthetic-organic conflict beyond our galaxy is the business of synthetics and organics who live out there.

I think so too. But sooner or later the synthetics there will win and they will become powerful enough to come here and invade us. After all, synthetics are a threat to everything that moves. It's inevitable. So sooner or later they show up.

[Heeden]

@AngryFrozenWater

If you do want to imagine an extra-galactic threat, likely it won't be an issue for around 4 billion years, which is when the Milky Way is expected to collide with Andromeda however it would take an excessive amount of head-canon to consider how the ME galaxy will have changed and what they will consider a suitable response.

[Mystiq6]

You guys are really boring to argue with.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

Yet you took its word on the shooting the thingy = Destroy the Reapers. You don't believe what it says apart from when it is pointing out its own weakness, knowing that you went there with destructive intent.

Well you see it had little choice there, it didn't want you to do it, but it was clearly visible. There is no evidence that it had any say on the "options" the crucible created. If it had just said nothing, Shepard would be wondering what it does, since Starbrat obviously doesn't want to talk about it. So, it had little choice but tell me what it was, and considering it clearly didn't like it, well anything Starbrat doesn't like is probably a good thing.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:20 .

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I think so too. But sooner or later the synthetics there will win and they will become powerful enough to come here and invade us. After all, synthetics are a threat to everything that moves. It's inevitable. So sooner or later they show up.

If that's what you imagine I won't bother stopping you, but it is in no way a conclusion I would have drawn from the Catalyst's speech and I'm not entirely sure why you bring Synthesis in to it.

If anything the title should be "Synthesis - the best way of countering an extra-galactic threat I just made up".

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

@AngryFrozenWater

If you do want to imagine an extra-galactic threat, likely it won't be an issue for around 4 billion years, which is when the Milky Way is expected to collide with Andromeda however it would take an excessive amount of head-canon to consider how the ME galaxy will have changed and what they will consider a suitable response.

Where did you get that number from?

[Mystiq6]

Heeden wrote...

@AngryFrozenWater

If you do want to imagine an extra-galactic threat, likely it won't be an issue for around 4 billion years, which is when the Milky Way is expected to collide with Andromeda however it would take an excessive amount of head-canon to consider how the ME galaxy will have changed and what they will consider a suitable response.

If the two galaxies collide, they won't destroy each other, unless the black hole in the center of Andromeda hits the wrong object, like the Sun.

It's believed the center of every galaxy has a black hole, which provides some form of protection. From what, I forget.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:30 .