982 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

If that's what you imagine I won't bother stopping you, but it is in no way a conclusion I would have drawn from the Catalyst's speech and I'm not entirely sure why you bring Synthesis in to it.

If anything the title should be "Synthesis - the best way of countering an extra-galactic threat I just made up".

Because logic shows its solution doesn't work, so should never have been acted on. Why would we believe it when it says anything is inevitable? Why would we join with a mass murderer, who killed in the name of an imagined threat, and the only proof of its existence is this clowns word?

Our minds would end up as broken as its!

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:32 .

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

@AngryFrozenWater

If you do want to imagine an extra-galactic threat, likely it won't be an issue for around 4 billion years, which is when the Milky Way is expected to collide with Andromeda however it would take an excessive amount of head-canon to consider how the ME galaxy will have changed and what they will consider a suitable response.

Where did you get that number from?

Science!
http://www.newscient...article/dn11852

4 billion is a ball-park figure, we expect a flyby in 2 billion and the eventual formation of an extra-large galaxy in 5-6 billion, but 4 billion is around the time the merger begins.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

@AngryFrozenWater

If you do want to imagine an extra-galactic threat, likely it won't be an issue for around 4 billion years, which is when the Milky Way is expected to collide with Andromeda however it would take an excessive amount of head-canon to consider how the ME galaxy will have changed and what they will consider a suitable response.

Where did you get that number from?

Science!
http://www.newscient...article/dn11852

4 billion is a ball-park figure, we expect a flyby in 2 billion and the eventual formation of an extra-large galaxy in 5-6 billion, but 4 billion is around the time the merger begins.

Yes. But why should that threat wait for that?

[Heeden]

Mystiq6 wrote...

If the two galaxies collide, they won't destroy each other, unless the black hole in the center of Andromeda hits the wrong object, like the Sun.

It's believed the center of every galaxy has a black hole, which provides some form of protection. From what, I forget.

I didn't mean Andromeda would be a threat, it will certainly cause chaos but beings on our scale shouldn't be put too much at risk as long as we have some form of space-flight.

However if there are malevolent forces in that galaxy the convergence will give them opportunity to come over to ours and make a mess, either because they're space monsters or they want our resources or whatever.

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Yes. But why should that threat wait for that?

Why should it come all this way without a good reason? And I won't accept "because evil" as an answer.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


Science!
http://www.newscient...article/dn11852

4 billion is a ball-park figure, we expect a flyby in 2 billion and the eventual formation of an extra-large galaxy in 5-6 billion, but 4 billion is around the time the merger begins.

There are other galaxies besides Andromeda you know. And besides In MEU under FTL speeds of about 15 light years per day, a ship could travel to Andromeda in about 570 years, that's just off the top of my head.

Why would anyone wait for the Galaxies to merge naturally?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Yes. But why should that threat wait for that?

Why should it come all this way without a good reason? And I won't accept "because evil" as an answer.

For the same reason you have chosen synthesis. It is inevitable. The brat says so.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


Why should it come all this way without a good reason? And I won't accept "because evil" as an answer.

Because Starbrat said they wanted to wipe out all life. All life implies the whole universe, if not then it's not all life.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

There are other galaxies besides Andromeda you know. And besides In MEU under FTL speeds of about 15 light years per day, a ship could travel to Andromeda in about 570 years, that's just off the top of my head.

Why would anyone wait for the Galaxies to merge naturally?

Because there's little point in travelling all that way when there are plenty of resources in this galaxy, and it isn't confirmed than ships in ME can travel that far.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Heeden wrote...


Why should it come all this way without a good reason? And I won't accept "because evil" as an answer.

Because Starbrat said they wanted to wipe out all life. All life implies the whole universe, if not then it's not all life.

I really think you should pay attention to the information in the EC, the Catalyst explains how conflict arises between created and creators, your "because evil" interpretation doesn't fit in to it. The galaxy is a small area, contact and conflict are inevitable. That does not mean extra-galactic extermination excursions. If that was a logical result our galaxy would probably have been taken over before mankind even evolved.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

There are other galaxies besides Andromeda you know. And besides In MEU under FTL speeds of about 15 light years per day, a ship could travel to Andromeda in about 570 years, that's just off the top of my head.

Why would anyone wait for the Galaxies to merge naturally?

Because there's little point in travelling all that way when there are plenty of resources in this galaxy, and it isn't confirmed than ships in ME can travel that far.

Let me ask you a question. Why would synthetics wipe out organics in Shepard's galaxy?

[Heeden]

[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Why should it come all this way without a good reason? And I won't accept "because evil" as an answer.[/quote]
For the same reason you have chosen synthesis. It is inevitable. The brat says so.

[/quote]

Same to you - try actually paying attention to the information in-game.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


Because there's little point in travelling all that way when there are plenty of resources in this galaxy, and it isn't confirmed than ships in ME can travel that far.

But that's not the reason, Starbrat said they will wipe out all life. Well there is life outside their home Galaxy, if they don't then they won't wipe out all life. Unless of course Starbrat is wrong?

But these will be hundreds of millions of years more advanced than us, no Reapers interfering with their progress, so I can't see any reason they can't travel the distance.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Why should it come all this way without a good reason? And I won't accept "because evil" as an answer.

For the same reason you have chosen synthesis. It is inevitable. The brat says so.

Same to you - try actually paying attention to the information in-game.

There you have your answer. Why do ask me this this then? Isn't obvious?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:50 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...




I really think you should pay attention to the information in the EC, the Catalyst explains how conflict arises between created and creators, your "because evil" interpretation doesn't fit in to it. The galaxy is a small area, contact and conflict are inevitable. That does not mean extra-galactic extermination excursions. If that was a logical result our galaxy would probably have been taken over before mankind even evolved.

But it said they will want to wipe out all life, if they don't go looking for it in other galaxies, then they don't want to wipe out all life. 

If they were just interested in killing their creators, why wouldn't they leave organic species that had nothing to do with their creation alone?

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


Same to you - try actually paying attention to the information in-game.

But what proof is there that the Brat's right? You only have its word for it. We've shown its logic is flawed, why would we trust it on this?

[Mystiq6]

[quote]Heeden wrote...

[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Why should it come all this way without a good reason? And I won't accept "because evil" as an answer.[/quote]
For the same reason you have chosen synthesis. It is inevitable. The brat says so.

[/quote]

Same to you - try actually paying attention to the information in-game.

[/quote]

You are meant to question the Catalyst and not believe everything he says. The information in-game that supports this is the Catalyst suggesting Shepard will die but Shepard really living if your EMS is high enough. The other piece of evidence is if you resolved the Geth-Quarian conflict, you've basically proven the cycle wrong. The Geth also did not wipe out all of the Quarians (just most of them, ha).

He also turned his own creators into reapers against their will. If this is not evidence to not trust him then I don't know what is.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:04 .

[Heeden]

The problem is chaos, to do with how synthetics and organics interact with each other.

The Catalyst does not say that synthetics are evil, indeed from playing ME I get the opinion that organics are usually the cause of the problem.

So whilst it is possible that malign AIs from another galaxy may come here to attack, it is not a logical conclusion from the Catalyst's dialogue or from playing through the game.

Of course if you got the impression that, for example, the Geth actually do hate organics and would want to wipe out all life in the universe if they got the chance I can't really do anything about that, but you certainly had a very different way of looking at the game than I did.

[Heeden]

Mystiq6 wrote...

You are meant to question the Catalyst and not believe everything he says. The information in-game that supports this is the Catalyst suggesting Shepard will die but Shepard really living if your EMS is high enough.

This is explained by the Catalyst - he examines the Crucible and with high EMS declares it will destroy the Reapers but also cause damage to all technology, but it will be minor damage and easilly repaired.

The other piece of evidence is if you resolved the Geth-Quarian conflict, you've basically proven the cycle wrong. The Geth also did not wipe out all of the Quarians (just most of them, ha).

Yes, we all know how special Shepard is and how he can break the cycle. That's the whole point of the game.

He also turned his own creators into reapers against their will. If this is not evidence to not trust him then I don't know what is.

Sometimes fire burns the person who creates it, does that mean we should abandon using fire?

Modifié par Heeden, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:01 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

The problem is chaos, to do with how synthetics and organics interact with each other.

The Catalyst does not say that synthetics are evil, indeed from playing ME I get the opinion that organics are usually the cause of the problem.

So whilst it is possible that malign AIs from another galaxy may come here to attack, it is not a logical conclusion from the Catalyst's dialogue or from playing through the game.

Of course if you got the impression that, for example, the Geth actually do hate organics and would want to wipe out all life in the universe if they got the chance I can't really do anything about that, but you certainly had a very different way of looking at the game than I did.

It absolutely said that they will wipe out all Organic life. It is the logical conclusion of its claims, since if they've no interest in wiping it out in other galaxies, then they don't want to wipe out all life.

And you are still taking its word for it, despite being shown its logic is flawed. Just because it believes it's right, doesn't make it right.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:07 .

[Mystiq6]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Why should it come all this way without a good reason? And I won't accept "because evil" as an answer.

For the same reason you have chosen synthesis. It is inevitable. The brat says so.

Same to you - try actually paying attention to the information in-game.

I think you're bending the game's lore to fit your own conclusions. I'd argue that the Catalyst would agree that synthetics from other galaxies would come and try to wipe us all out. In the original cycle, I'm sure the organics wanted peace when it was becoming obvious they might all die and the synthetics refused to cooperate.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:05 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

The problem is chaos, to do with how synthetics and organics interact with each other.

The Catalyst does not say that synthetics are evil, indeed from playing ME I get the opinion that organics are usually the cause of the problem.

So whilst it is possible that malign AIs from another galaxy may come here to attack, it is not a logical conclusion from the Catalyst's dialogue or from playing through the game.

Of course if you got the impression that, for example, the Geth actually do hate organics and would want to wipe out all life in the universe if they got the chance I can't really do anything about that, but you certainly had a very different way of looking at the game than I did.

The quarians started the Morning War. The quarian attacked the geth on Rannoch. The quarians kept firing on the Dreadnaught after the geth ceased fire to show their good will. Even when Shepard and 2 crew members were still on board. Not only the quarians were hostile, but the reapers as well. The reapers turned the heretics hostile. They turned the zha'til hostile. They controlled the geth on Rannoch.

Some reapers even shot at Shepard.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:06 .

[Mystiq6]

gah, accidental post

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:05 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...


Yes, we all know how special Shepard is and how he can break the cycle. That's the whole point of the game.


Sometimes fire burns the person who creates it, does that mean we should abandon using fire?

So Shepard can break the cycle, so why is the Starbrat needed? It still proves it's not inevitable.

Fire has no will guiding it, Starbrat does. It was supposed to use logic, it has none. Nor does fire actively pursue its victims across space.

[Heeden]

Mystiq6 wrote...
I think you're bending the game's lore to fit your own conclusions. I'd
argue that the Catalyst would agree that synthetics from other galaxies
would come and try to wipe us all out. In the original cycle, I'm sure
the organics wanted peace when it was becoming obvious they might all
die and the synthetics refused to cooperate.

If you'd like to point out where I'm going wrong I would be grateful.

The Catalyst is quite clear that the conflict comes from synthetics rebelling and the intrinsic misunderstanding between organics and synthetics means peace can not be acheived (without Shepard of course). I can't think of any way of interpretting that to mean that synthetics are inherently evil and for some reason acutally desire to slaughter organics, especially not to the extent they would travel to another galaxy to do so.