982 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

@Mystiq6: That post is a bit unclear. Who says what?

[Harorrd]

Notice how Synthesis is Green? the same colour as the Borg?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Harorrd wrote...

Notice how Synthesis is Green? the same colour as the Borg?

Evening.

[Heeden]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

So Shepard can break the cycle, so why is the Starbrat needed? It still proves it's not inevitable.

The Catalyst's creators didn't have access to Shepard, that should have been obvious.

Fire has no will guiding it, Starbrat does. It was supposed to use logic, it has none. Nor does fire actively pursue its victims across space.

The Catalyst uses logic based on information given to it by its creators and what it has observed since then. Unless you know all the data it has access to you can not claim it is illogical.

It is a Synthetic life-form, meaning it is bound to follow its programming as much as fire is bound to burn things it contacts.

[Mystiq6]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Heeden wrote...


Yes, we all know how special Shepard is and how he can break the cycle. That's the whole point of the game.


Sometimes fire burns the person who creates it, does that mean we should abandon using fire?

So Shepard can break the cycle, so why is the Starbrat needed? It still proves it's not inevitable.

Fire has no will guiding it, Starbrat does. It was supposed to use logic, it has none. Nor does fire actively pursue its victims across space.

Bless the Catalyst, but he's trying to argue that the reapers are acting like fire: burning what's in their path without regard to what's actually there. A person setting a building on fire might be acting maliciously (the Catalyst) but the fire itself has no will, it's just a chemical reaction. It will burn your computer and not give it a second thought. Fire > your computer. The Catalyst is acting maliciously (certainly in our point of view he is) but he's trying to argue the reapers themselves are just reactions.

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...

[

If you'd like to point out where I'm going wrong I would be grateful.

The Catalyst is quite clear that the conflict comes from synthetics rebelling and the intrinsic misunderstanding between organics and synthetics means peace can not be acheived (without Shepard of course). I can't think of any way of interpretting that to mean that synthetics are inherently evil and for some reason acutally desire to slaughter organics, especially not to the extent they would travel to another galaxy to do so.

Again, why should we believe it? It's logic is flawed, it's a mass murderer, why?

I don't know, I'd consider anything that wanted to wipe me out for no reason, evil. After all, Starbrat said they won't stop with their creators. Unless of course, it's wrong?

[Sarevok Synder]

Heeden wrote...



The Catalyst's creators didn't have access to Shepard, that should have been obvious.



The Catalyst uses logic based on information given to it by its creators and what it has observed since then. Unless you know all the data it has access to you can not claim it is illogical.

It is a Synthetic life-form, meaning it is bound to follow its programming as much as fire is bound to burn things it contacts.

No, it saw that Shepard achieved peace, yet it continued regardless. The creators have nothing to do with this.

It uses poor logic as has be demonstrated to you many times. And if that's true, why would I want to merge with a single minded mass murderer and his killer pets?

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:17 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:19 .

[Alamar2078]

The Angry One wrote...

One of the problems with a "perfect" society is that they see no reason why everyone else shouldn't join in and be as perfect as they are.

This is the whole point of the Borg in Star Trek. To the Borg, their existence is a perfect utopia, therefore everyone else in the galaxy is missing out, and must join whether they like it or not to improve their lives.

Synthesis carries these undertones. How long before this perfect society sees that everyone in the universe needs to share the perfection of living as they do, in harmony with the Reapers?

IF [and that's an assumption of course] the Catalyst's logic applies to many galaxies I'm pretty sure that if the Milky Way tried to impose Synthesis on other galaxies the Cylons would come over and kick some Reaper butt.

[Sarevok Synder]

Mystiq6 wrote...


Bless the Catalyst, but he's trying to argue that the reapers are acting like fire: burning what's in their path without regard to what's actually there. A person setting a building on fire might be acting maliciously (the Catalyst) but the fire itself has no will, it's just a chemical reaction. It will burn your computer and not give it a second thought. Fire > your computer. The Catalyst is acting maliciously (certainly in our point of view he is) but he's trying to argue the reapers themselves are just reactions.

I don't agree with that, fire spreading is random and dependant on fuel, heat and oxygen. The Reapers are focused in their task, so the two don't equate.

[Mystiq6]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Mystiq6: That post is a bit unclear. Who says what?

The quoting of my last couple posts is all jacked up because one of the other posts' quotes are messed up.

I would argue Heeden is bending the game's lore to his own arguments.

Heeden wrote...

If you'd like to point out where I'm going wrong I would be grateful.

The Catalyst is quite clear that the conflict comes from synthetics rebelling and the intrinsic misunderstanding between organics and synthetics means peace can not be acheived (without Shepard of course). I can't think of any way of interpretting that to mean that synthetics are inherently evil and for some reason acutally desire to slaughter organics, especially not to the extent they would travel to another galaxy to do so.

The game lays out a couple of facts in regards to this argument (in which I also believe you're twisting the argument to your favor).

One is that the geth were acting in self-defense as the quarians tried to shut down all down. The geth simply wanted to survive, a basic instinct in anything with sentience. In reaction to being shut down, the geth went to war with the quarians, wiping out the majority of them, forcing them off their own planet. Then, the geth isolated themselves and haven't been seen in 300 years. I'm not saying the quarians are innocent in this but I have some questions left unexplained by the game. Why did the geth kill so many quarians and not simply escape? Why did they ruin Rannoch?

Yes, that's probably a weak argument but here's another one. The Catalyst is synthetic. It killed its creators against their will and then proceeded to reap the rest of the galaxy. I call that evil -- by human standards, at least, since I'm not a quarian or turian. By the Catalyst's logic, it's not acting out of malice. That's by AI logic and you and I are not AIs.

The Catalyst has a limited view of things and I argued in another post that it has never actually seen synthetics wipe out organics. To get a better perspective, go look up the movie I, Robot, and read up about how the machines go from servants to enslaving mankind.

By the reasoning of the 3 basic principles of robotics, protecting humans from each other means enslaving them since otherwise they will wipe each other out if left unchecked. The Catalyst use a similar kind of logical extension something to reach its own conclusions.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:32 .

[Harorrd]

Guys, if they are synthetic? they dont need to use their lungs to add oxygen to their blood? They could swarm the intergalactic space assimilating organic life and use their technology to improve their own existence, just like the Mass effect 1 reapers?

[Sarevok Synder]

Alamar2078 wrote...


IF [and that's an assumption of course] the Catalyst's logic applies to many galaxies I'm pretty sure that if the Milky Way tried to impose Synthesis on other galaxies the Cylons would come over and kick some Reaper butt.

Yep, I don't imagine the Cylons taking it lying down!

[Mystiq6]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...


Bless the Catalyst, but he's trying to argue that the reapers are acting like fire: burning what's in their path without regard to what's actually there. A person setting a building on fire might be acting maliciously (the Catalyst) but the fire itself has no will, it's just a chemical reaction. It will burn your computer and not give it a second thought. Fire > your computer. The Catalyst is acting maliciously (certainly in our point of view he is) but he's trying to argue the reapers themselves are just reactions.

I don't agree with that, fire spreading is random and dependant on fuel, heat and oxygen. The Reapers are focused in their task, so the two don't equate.

I understand your argument but this is not what the Catalyst is arguing. I'm not saying I agree with him but he's trying to tell us that he believes the reapers are only acting as though they are a fire set to burn all higher life.

Of course as an organic you're going to disagree with him. You have emotions. He doesn't.

[Sarevok Synder]

Mystiq6 wrote...

I understand your argument but this is not what the Catalyst is arguing. I'm not saying I agree with him but he's trying to tell us that he believes the reapers are only acting as though they are a fire set to burn all higher life.

Of course as an organic you're going to disagree with him. You have emotions. He doesn't.

Fair enough, but I don't remember it saying this. It doesn't matter anyway, Starbrat is still full of crap.

[Fawx9]

Mystiq6 wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...


Bless the Catalyst, but he's trying to argue that the reapers are acting like fire: burning what's in their path without regard to what's actually there. A person setting a building on fire might be acting maliciously (the Catalyst) but the fire itself has no will, it's just a chemical reaction. It will burn your computer and not give it a second thought. Fire > your computer. The Catalyst is acting maliciously (certainly in our point of view he is) but he's trying to argue the reapers themselves are just reactions.

I don't agree with that, fire spreading is random and dependant on fuel, heat and oxygen. The Reapers are focused in their task, so the two don't equate.

I understand your argument but this is not what the Catalyst is arguing. I'm not saying I agree with him but he's trying to tell us that he believes the reapers are only acting as though they are a fire set to burn all higher life.

Of course as an organic you're going to disagree with him. You have emotions. He doesn't.

Not to mention the Reapers are actually shown to have thoughts and personalities of their own before that idiotic statement.

[Mystiq6]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

I understand your argument but this is not what the Catalyst is arguing. I'm not saying I agree with him but he's trying to tell us that he believes the reapers are only acting as though they are a fire set to burn all higher life.

Of course as an organic you're going to disagree with him. You have emotions. He doesn't.

Fair enough, but I don't remember it saying this. It doesn't matter anyway, Starbrat is still full of crap.

"When fire burns, is it at war?"
In that one line, he says it.

Not to mention the Reapers are actually shown to have thoughts and personalities of their own before that idiotic statement.

They are shown to have thoughts and personalities as far as you can throw a boulder without biotics. They have nothing but contempt for organic life. Because we learn the Catalyst is controlling the reapers, I think it's safe to say that the thoughts and personalities the reapers may appear to have are just an extension of the Catalyst, and it is nothing short of programming. The only synthetics in Mass Effect you can argue have true personalities are the geth and EDI.

If I am proven wrong come Leviathan, allow me to preemptively alter my argument by saying the reapers may have thoughts and personalities from the "nations" they are created from but are strictly under the control of the Catalyst, which is just an AI.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:38 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Mystiq6 wrote...


"When fire burns, is it at war?"
In that one line, he says it.

Oh yeah! Damn it is a freaky little thing, well I've just shown more flaws in its logic. Cheers

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:41 .

[Fawx9]

Mystiq6 wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

I understand your argument but this is not what the Catalyst is arguing. I'm not saying I agree with him but he's trying to tell us that he believes the reapers are only acting as though they are a fire set to burn all higher life.

Of course as an organic you're going to disagree with him. You have emotions. He doesn't.

Fair enough, but I don't remember it saying this. It doesn't matter anyway, Starbrat is still full of crap.

"When fire burns, is it at war?"
In that one line, he says it.

Not to mention the Reapers are actually shown to have thoughts and personalities of their own before that idiotic statement.

They are shown to have thoughts and personalities as far as you can throw a boulder without biotics. They have nothing but contempt for organic life. Because we learn the Catalyst is controlling the reapers, I think it's safe to say that the thoughts and personalities the reapers may appear to have are just an extension of the Catalyst, and it is nothing short of programming. The only synthetics in Mass Effect you can argue have true personalities are the geth and EDI.

If I am proven wrong come Leviathan, allow me to preemptively alter my argument by saying the reapers may have thoughts and personalities from the "nations" they are created from but are strictly under the control of the Catalyst, which is just an AI.

Explain the difference between the three reapers we talk to then. Sovereign was the most hubris of them all, comparing us to nothing more than bug that would be crushed. Harby while still egotistical did take a personnal interest in Shepard. The one on Rannoch acted more as a foot soldier, that had orders passed down to it.

If they were all bassed on star jar then their personnalities should have been the same, unless they were actually different.

Also if star jar was activily controlling them why the hell didnt he just turn on the citidal from the start.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Mystiq6 wrote...

One is that the geth were acting in self-defense as the quarians tried to shut down all down. The geth simply wanted to survive, a basic instinct in anything with sentience. In reaction to being shut down, the geth went to war with the quarians, wiping out the majority of them, forcing them off their own planet. Then, the geth isolated themselves and haven't been seen in 300 years. I'm not saying the quarians are innocent in this but I have some questions left unexplained by the game. Why did the geth kill so many quarians and not simply escape? Why did they ruin Rannoch?

One by one. I am a bit tired. But this part is interesting. They do not live on the quarian worlds. They have no use for them. The geth are actually clearing the rubble and burrying the quarian dead there. Legion explains that they are maybe doing it for the quarians. The geth were even studying the organics in the hope to find out why the quarians became hostile to them. Let me show you three conversations with Legion...

-----

Shepard: Nothing gets resolved if you hide behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you.

Legion: Organic life acts on emotions. We do not judge them for being true to their nature. We cannot make them think like us. Both creators and created must complete their halves of the equation. The geth cannot solve for peace alone.

-----

Shepard: You don't actually live on the quarian worlds?

Legion: We live within space stations. Draw resources from asteroids. It's effecient. We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth.

Shepard: Similar actions?

Legion: At Wadi-es-Salaam. Arlington. Rockwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevkoye. Aschwitz-Birkenau.

Shepard: Those are cemitaries. Memorials.

Legion: It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?

Shepard: The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on.

Legion: The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them.

-----

Shepard: The geth are listening in on our transmissions?

Legion: Organic life reacts to stimuli in unpredicatble ways. We wish to learn.

Shepard: What do you mean by "stimuli"?

Legion: We placed a fabricated story on the extranet - that a certain arrangement of stars, viewed from the batarian homeworld, formed the face of a salarian goddess. Without waiting for verification, some declared it proof of the goddess' extistence. Those who noted the lack of proof were attacked. The arguments taught us much. The experiment ended when a salarian cult tried to purchase colonization rights to the stars and they did not exist.

Shepard: It sounds like you're running experiments on us.

Legion: You are sapient life, but not like us. If we can model organic behavior, we can comprehend the quarian-creators. We do not understand their judgements in the Morning War.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:55 .

[Mystiq6]

Fawx9 wrote...

Explain the difference between the three reapers we talk to then. Sovereign was the most hubris of them all, comparing us to nothing more than bug that would be crushed. Harby while still egotistical did take a personnal interest in Shepard. The one on Rannoch acted more as a foot soldier, that had orders passed down to it.

If they were all bassed on star jar then their personnalities should have been the same, unless they were actually different.

You probably want to think this is the reason then:

If I am proven wrong come Leviathan, allow me to preemptively alter my argument by saying the reapers may have thoughts and personalities from the "nations" they are created from but are strictly under the control of the Catalyst, which is just an AI.

In order to fully understand this myself, I'd like to know more about Leviathan. Though I don't believe right now that the reapers themselves really have personalities, this is the best answer I can give until we learn if there are hierarchies in "reaper society." I'm probably talking a little out of my ass here and I probably will be proven wrong come Leviathan. Some people say the reapers are synthesized organics/synthetics.

Also if star jar was activily controlling them why the hell didnt he just turn on the citidal from the start.

I don't want to argue this as it's not the point of the thread and for what it's worth, I don't know. We're led to believe he can't, partially because he just can't and partially because the Protheans made sure of it by altering the Keepers.

[valkulon]

Oh man, the circlejerk in this thread is OVER 9000!

[Mystiq6]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

One is that the geth were acting in self-defense as the quarians tried to shut down all down. The geth simply wanted to survive, a basic instinct in anything with sentience. In reaction to being shut down, the geth went to war with the quarians, wiping out the majority of them, forcing them off their own planet. Then, the geth isolated themselves and haven't been seen in 300 years. I'm not saying the quarians are innocent in this but I have some questions left unexplained by the game. Why did the geth kill so many quarians and not simply escape? Why did they ruin Rannoch?

One by one. I am a bit tired. But this part is interesting. They do not live on the quarian worlds. They have no use for them. The geth are actually clearing the rubble and burrying the quarian dead there. Legion explains that they are maybe doing it for the quarians. The geth were even studying the organics in the hope to find out why the quarians became hostile to them. Let me show you three conversations with Legion...

-----

Shepard: Nothing gets resolved if you hide behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you.

Legion: Organic life acts on emotions. We do not judge them for being true to their nature. We cannot make them think like us. Both creators and created must complete their halves of the equation. The geth cannot solve for peace alone.

-----

Shepard: You don't actually live on the quarian worlds?

Legion: We live within space stations. Draw resources from asteroids. It's effecient. We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. We know of similar actions by humans on Earth.

Shepard: Similar actions?

Legion: At Wadi-es-Salaam. Arlington. Rockwood. Tyne Cot. Piskarevkoye. Aschwitz-Birkenau.

Shepard: Those are cemitaries. Memorials.

Legion: It is important to your species to preserve them, though you do not use the land. Can you explain?

Shepard: The living visit those places to remember the dead. But it sounds like geth don't die. Your memories live on.

Legion: The creators died. Perhaps we do it for them.

-----

Shepard: The geth are listening in on our transmissions?

Legion: Organic life reacts to stimuli in unpredicatble ways. We wish to learn.

Shepard: What do you mean by "stimuli"?

Legion: We placed a fabricated story on the extranet - that a certain arrangement of stars, viewed from the batarian homeworld, formed the face of a salarian goddess. Without waiting for verification, some declared it proof of the goddess' extistence. Those who noted the lack of proof were attacked. The arguments taught us much. The experiment ended when a salarian cult tried to purchase colonization rights to the stars and they did not exist.

Shepard: It sounds like you're running experiments on us.

Legion: You are sapient life, but not like us. If we can model organic behavior, we can comprehend the quarian-creators. We do not understand their judgements in the Morning War.

Thank you for reminding me, but it still doesn't explain why the geth didn't simply kill what they absolutely needed to and then leave. Again, I'm not saying the geth are inherently evil -- clearly they are poor, misunderstood creatures (kinda like dragons, as per Hagrid) -- but the viciousness they exhibited in the war cannot go unspoken for.

Unless you want to argue some of them were under control/influence of the reapers while they were at war.

For the record, I opted to save both the quarians and geth because I love both of those genocidal bastards.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 07 juillet 2012 - 12:01 .