982 réponses à ce sujet

[Subguy614]

lx_theo wrote...

And you don't understand. How do I know that? You just said you didn't. And those points you think I "evaded" (I have yet to), I'm sure I just said they were wrong because your deep misunderstanding of the ending led you to some wild assumption no one in their right mind would think legitimate.

" I have not yet begun to evade"

[OnlyHazeRemains]

The Angry One wrote...

Gives synthetics WHAT understanding? Why do synthetics need understanding? Why do organics suddenly not need understanding?
The Catalyst is all over the place in it's insane attemps at reasoning, and so is any defence of it's ramblings.
This is on the same level as "the Crucible changed me .... the Crucible is little more than a power source." Self contradictory nonsense.

You can't just backpedal and say organic minds won't be affected at all by this, the Catalyst claims organics cause chaos. Organics do. Yet it's the SYNTHETICS that need to change their mindset? That makes absolutely no sense and you know it.

It makes total sense if youre at least willing to put 2 thoughts into the concept of a technological singularity.
You clearly dont want to do that at all.

Gives Synthetic the understanding of all the flaws of organic life, mainly emotions and the resulting irrationalities.
Without that understanding, a completely rational thinking synthetic construct would percieve organicas as a threat to its existence and exterminate them. Its that simple. Look at how humanity almost self-destructed on a few ocassions (cuba crisis), or how were on the steady path to destroying our planet.

Thats why the catalyst says Synthetics gain understanding.
Organics get to "fully integrate with synthetics", as in synthetic bodyparts or something.
Go watch Ghost in the Shell. It depicts a future in wich humans have replaced their bodies completely by tech, except for the brain, and the main character is in doubt wether it even has an organic brain or is just  a "copy" of his old brain, and wether that makes her "inhuman" or "less human" in any way.
See how EDI talks about how  they "...may transcend mortality itself ... to reach a level of existence i cannot even imagine". If it is technologically possible to "transcode and copy" the whole human brain onto some electronic device, then you become immortal.

Its all about philosophy that you dont want to approach cause youre some kind of anti-synthesis xenophobe.

[The Angry One]

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

It makes total sense if youre at least willing to put 2 thoughts into the concept of a technological singularity.
You clearly dont want to do that at all.

Ah, more insults. How typical.

Gives Synthetic the understanding of all the flaws of organic life, mainly emotions and the resulting irrationalities.
Without that understanding, a completely rational thinking synthetic construct would percieve organicas as a threat to its existence and exterminate them. Its that simple. Look at how humanity almost self-destructed on a few ocassions (cuba crisis), or how were on the steady path to destroying our planet.

Assumptions based on nothing, contradicted by the Geth.

Thats why the catalyst says Synthetics gain understanding.
Organics get to "fully integrate with synthetics", as in synthetic bodyparts or something.
Go watch Ghost in the Shell. It depicts a future in wich humans have replaced their bodies completely by tech, except for the brain, and the main character is in doubt wether it even has an organic brain or is just  a "copy" of his old brain, and wether that makes her "inhuman" or "less human" in any way.
See how EDI talks about how  they "...may transcend mortality itself ... to reach a level of existence i cannot even imagine". If it is technologically possible to "transcode and copy" the whole human brain onto some electronic device, then you become immortal.

This is not Ghost in the Shell. This is Mass Effect. Neither EDI or the Geth display the traits you accuse them of.
Stick to the narrative of the series, not paranoid real life theories about synthetic life that doesn't exist yet.

Its all about philosophy that you dont want to approach cause youre some kind of anti-synthesis xenophobe.

A philosophy that has nothing to do with Mass Effect. Synthesis' themes are morally repugnant and require a violation of the core themes of the series.

As for your tech singularity, you are yet another person who does not understand that the tech singularity represents an unknown, the point at which the advancement of an AI is no longer predictable.
It has nothing to do with AIs killing us. That is something paranoid theorists tack on to the idea because of their own contempt and self-loathing of human civilisation.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[tettenjager]

why is it that when people dont like somethink they think they have the monopoly over the truth?

This is all interpretation, if you think this will end in universal war, fine, but don't tell people who don't that they are wrong, cause they are not. The game does'nt say anything, not even a hint that ANY of the endings will resolve in a all out war, so what happens after the epilogue is nothing but speculation, and your guess is as good as any.

Goodbye

[AngryFrozenWater]

lx_theo wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

I have a question for theo: aside from turning everyones eyes green, exactly what do you think synthesis did to people?

Added physical tech, just like the Catalyst said.

That's hard to believe and nothing indicates that this is the case. It added something to synthetics as well, BTW. The changes were designed so that the racial differences wouldn't cause any trouble in the future. So there must be mind control in one way or another that causes utopia. Otherwise the scenario in the OP is inevitable.

No, there does not have to be. None of that is HAS to be.

It also didn't actually change synthetics. He literally says it changes organics physically and gives synthetics understanding.
(26:40)

And no, no where does it state that there is a Utopia. All it does is open the floodgates in knowledge and intellectual potential. 

And no, that also doesn't make any of the OP inevitable. I've already decribed quite a number of other easily possible situations that discredit this being inevitable.

It did change the reapers, the husks, the synthetics and the organics. Whatever it is, it made sure all of these have those ugly green glowing eyes. You can deny that anyway you want, but that doesn't make what you believe true.

Child: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic live into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.

Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who you are and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.

Shepard: To do what exactly?

Child: The energy of the Cruscible, released this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy. Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding. Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics. It is te ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis.

Not only does it destroy the racial identies, it also messes with everyone's mind. The "essence of who you are and what you are", those are Shepard's, are added to the mix. "Who you are and what you are" do not suggest pure physical qualities, but how Shepard thinks instead is brought in the soup of the matrix of this new framework. If that wasn't important then James Vega's body would be much better. Physically he looks more fit than Shepard. So, sorry, it looks like mind control to me.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:27 .

[OnlyHazeRemains]

What yorue doing is denying ME3 the whole conceptual foundation of its endings.
Why not just say that you think the endings are sh it and out of character and all ( i would wholeheartedly agree) and be done with it?

I brought up ghost in the shell as a reference to the philosophical concepts behind the Synthesis ending.

But your in complete denial.

Modifié par Samurai_Smartie, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[Helios969]

I completely reject the notion that a technological singularity results in genocidal AI's preceiving organic life as a threat that must be eradicated. A super intelligent race would preceive us as a threat about as much as we'd perceive chimpanzees to be threats to our existence. More than likely such a race would go off to continue to work on their perfection.

[The Angry One]

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

What yorue doing is denying ME3 the whole conceptual foundation of its endings.

The "conceptual foundation" of these endings are a joke.

Why not just say that you think the endings a **** and out of character and all ( i would wholeheartedly agree) and be done with it?

Because synthesis is, as I've said, repugnant and wrong and yet advertised as the best ending to the point that BioWare actively sabotaged the other endings, especially destroy, to force it's appeal.

[Vigilant111]

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

It makes total sense if youre at least willing to put 2 thoughts into the concept of a technological singularity.
You clearly dont want to do that at all.

Gives Synthetic the understanding of all the flaws of organic life, mainly emotions and the resulting irrationalities.
Without that understanding, a completely rational thinking synthetic construct would percieve organicas as a threat to its existence and exterminate them. Its that simple. Look at how humanity almost self-destructed on a few ocassions (cuba crisis), or how were on the steady path to destroying our planet.

Thats why the catalyst says Synthetics gain understanding.
Organics get to "fully integrate with synthetics", as in synthetic bodyparts or something.
Go watch Ghost in the Shell. It depicts a future in wich humans have replaced their bodies completely by tech, except for the brain, and the main character is in doubt wether it even has an organic brain or is just  a "copy" of his old brain, and wether that makes her "inhuman" or "less human" in any way.
See how EDI talks about how  they "...may transcend mortality itself ... to reach a level of existence i cannot even imagine". If it is technologically possible to "transcode and copy" the whole human brain onto some electronic device, then you become immortal.

Its all about philosophy that you dont want to approach cause youre some kind of anti-synthesis xenophobe.

What is this got into do with anything? It is unknown whether synthesis can actually stop singularity

I don't understand the bolded text, are you saying that synthetics destroy organics because they are irrational?

Oh? becoming immortal is the main reason u chose synthesis? I thought synthetics want to become mortal in order to have a full experience of life

[The Angry One]

Helios969 wrote...

I completely reject the notion that a technological singularity results in genocidal AI's preceiving organic life as a threat that must be eradicated. A super intelligent race would preceive us as a threat about as much as we'd perceive chimpanzees to be threats to our existence. More than likely such a race would go off to continue to work on their perfection.

Indeed and again, the whole point is that it's an unknown.
They may kill us or they may provide every human with flowers to make us happy. We just don't know. That's the point.

[lx_theo]

The Angry One wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Considering how many times you've attack synthesis on this site. I'm sure you have been explained it a hundred times over. I know you just don't listen..

And the posturing continues.

And you don't understand. How do I know that? You just said you didn't. And those points you think I "evaded" (I have yet to), I'm sure I just said they were wrong because your deep misunderstanding of the ending led you to some wild assumption no one in their right mind would think legitimate.

You don'tsay why, and you continue to evade the points I made. I notice you insulting others to.

Either make your point, or be quiet. At this point I will simply declare that you don't understand, and are pretending you do.

Well, if you don't want to be told how you evade every explanation, don't do it. You post nothing relatively close to understanding it and ignore people who correect you.

I've already address many of your points in this thread. Do you mean that latest one where you basically came out and said you don't understand one bit of it? Yeah, maybe someone else has the patience to explain something someone evades to them.

And don't worry, I've already explained it to you in threads of past. You did the same thing then. Evade, evade, evade, evade...

[OnlyHazeRemains]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It did change the reapers, the husks, the synthetics and the organics. Whatever it is, it made sure all of these have those ugly green glowing eyes. You can deny that anyway you want, but that doesn't make what you believe true.

Child: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic live into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.

Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who you are and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.

Shepard: To do what exactly?

Child: The energy of the Cruscible, released this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy. Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding. Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics. It is te ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis.

Not only does it destroy the racial identies, it also messes with everyone's mind. The "essence of who you are and what you are", those are Shepard's, are added to the mix. "Who you are and what you are" do not suggest pure physical qualities, but how Shepard thinks instead is brought in the soup of the matrix of this new framework. If that wasn't important then James Vega's body would be much better. Physically he looks more fit than Shepard. So, sorry, it looks like mind control to me.

Youre nitpicking at words and visuals without actually thinking about the concept behind it.

The obvious flaws you point out in the ending are caused by the impossible task to explain synthesis in a frame of  maybe 10 senteces and a few video sequences. The "essence of who you are and what you are" is just dodgy mumbo jumbo because an actual explanation would fill up books and would still be completely hypothetical from todays view.

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

Well, if you don't want to be told how you evade every explanation, don't do it. You post nothing relatively close to understanding it and ignore people who correect you.

More evasions, more insults.

I've already address many of your points in this thread. Do you mean that latest one where you basically came out and said you don't understand one bit of it? Yeah, maybe someone else has the patience to explain something someone evades to them.

You have failed to explain why the Catalyst's dialogue is worth anything at all.
You have failed to explain how synthesis doesn't affect minds.
You have failed to justify why synthesis would give synthetics "understanding" but not organics, when the Catalyst and the Rannoch Destroyer flat out say organics represent chaos.

I will say again. Stop pretending that you have made irrefutable arguments and those who disagree with you don't understand. I loathe this type of behaviour.

And don't worry, I've already explained it to you in threads of past. You did the same thing then. Evade, evade, evade, evade...

Stop wasting everyone's time, please.

[Ieldra]

tettenjager wrote...
why is it that when people dont like somethink they think they have the monopoly over the truth?

This is why I have stopped participating in threads like this. It's of no use whatsoever to say anything to these fanatics. It completely escapes them how anyone could dare have a different perspective on Synthesis.

Besides, it's telling that the OP uses as an example a galaxy whose existence is in doubt.

[FTGShaun]

Just my opinion, but you have to be bonkers to think Synthensis is in any way an ideal solution whatsoever - but I guess this is what Bioware wants - make up your own ending with rainbows and fairies if you please.

Organics benefit by access to knowledge - who is controlling this knowledge? Knowledge and history can be rewritten, and people are programmed to believe what the controllers (Reapers) want to believe. Sure everybody on the surface appears happy, but they mindless and soulless beings, imprisoned within their own minds and not able/do not have the desire to break free.

If you're pro synthesis, I suggest you read Orwell's 1984.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

tettenjager wrote...
why is it that when people dont like somethink they think they have the monopoly over the truth?

This is why I have stopped participating in threads like this. It's of no use whatsoever to say anything to these fanatics. It completely escapes them how anyone could dare have a different perspective on Synthesis.

Besides, it's telling that the OP uses as an example a galaxy whose existence is in doubt.

Pot > Kettle > Black.

[MrFob]

I don't think they have the means (yet) to travel between galaxies. As much as BW might have butchered the concept of star cluster that are isolated without Mass Relays, they still preserved the fundamental mechanic of drive charge and the need to discharge. Now with the speeds available, it may be possible to reach objects with suitable magnetic fields to fly pretty much anywhere but if there really is pretty much nothing in between galaxies, they can forget going to another one any time soon. It's a while since I read the codex so I might be wrong on this and they actually introduced more new concepts in ME3 than I thought so feel free to correct me if necessary.
All that said, if the synthesis being just maintain their free will and stay themselves, then this so called "solution" doesn't really solve anything at all and we might as well leave it alone. If they don't, if this transformation just changes people a little than it's an abomination beyond words and should not be considered by anyone. If I just think about possible psychological effects this sudden transformation might have on myself, I tend to be biased towards the abomination angle.

[General User]

Helios969 wrote...

I completely reject the notion that a technological singularity results in genocidal AI's preceiving organic life as a threat that must be eradicated. A super intelligent race would preceive us as a threat about as much as we'd perceive chimpanzees to be threats to our existence. More than likely such a race would go off to continue to work on their perfection.

That's a good point, and touches on a flaw at the heart of the Catalyst's character.  Whether it was following it's programing, or just insane, after destroying it's creators the Catalyst could have done anything it wanted with itself, but it choose to stay and tortureand murder uncountable numbers of people just so it could order the galaxy the way it wanted.

It had the galaxy in the palm of it's hand and it chose to squeeze.  What a pathetic little creature.

[lx_theo]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

I have a question for theo: aside from turning everyones eyes green, exactly what do you think synthesis did to people?

Added physical tech, just like the Catalyst said.

That's hard to believe and nothing indicates that this is the case. It added something to synthetics as well, BTW. The changes were designed so that the racial differences wouldn't cause any trouble in the future. So there must be mind control in one way or another that causes utopia. Otherwise the scenario in the OP is inevitable.

No, there does not have to be. None of that is HAS to be.

It also didn't actually change synthetics. He literally says it changes organics physically and gives synthetics understanding.
(26:40)

And no, no where does it state that there is a Utopia. All it does is open the floodgates in knowledge and intellectual potential. 

And no, that also doesn't make any of the OP inevitable. I've already decribed quite a number of other easily possible situations that discredit this being inevitable.

It did change the reapers, the husks, the synthetics and the organics. Whatever it is, it made sure all of these have those ugly green glowing eyes. You can deny that anyway you want, but that doesn't make what you believe true.

Child: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic live into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.

Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who you are and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.

Shepard: To do what exactly?

Child: The energy of the Cruscible, released this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy. Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding. Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics. It is te ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis.

Not only does it destroy the racial identies, it also messes with everyone's mind. The "essence of who you are and what you are", those are Shepard's, are added to the mix. "Who you are and what you are" do not suggest pure physical qualities, but how Shepard thinks instead is brought in the soup of the matrix of this new framework. If that wasn't important then James Vega's body would be much better. Physically he looks more fit than Shepard. So, sorry, it looks like mind control to me.

No... Just so much no.

He very specifically says that the only actual physical change will be to organics. If he choose to include synthetic's understanding as a change in his general statement, that doesn't mean there's suddenly a bunch more it does.

No, it doesn't destroy racial identities. Nothing about anything suggest that it does. It very blatantly keeps the looks racial identities are based on in the epilogue.

No, it doesn't mess with people's minds to the point they become mind controllled or anything remately near that. "Essence of what you are and who you are" does not = mind control. That's absolutely absurd. Shepard is partly synthetic. That model is what's being integrated into people. Nothing more, nothing less can be logically gained from any of that.

So, no. Comepletely and utterly no. Mind control is the least logical conclusion I've ever heard be put forward for synthesis...

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

tettenjager wrote...
why is it that when people dont like somethink they think they have the monopoly over the truth?

This is why I have stopped participating in threads like this. It's of no use whatsoever to say anything to these fanatics. It completely escapes them how anyone could dare have a different perspective on Synthesis.

Besides, it's telling that the OP uses as an example a galaxy whose existence is in doubt.

There is no different perspective on synthesis, it is what it is, synthesis is already a different perspective to life, to a game's ending

[The Angry One]

FTGShaun wrote...

If you're pro synthesis, I suggest you read Orwell's 1984.

Heh. They're probably the ones who fantacise about being in charge of such a society.

[tettenjager]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

tettenjager wrote...
why is it that when people dont like somethink they think they have the monopoly over the truth?

This is why I have stopped participating in threads like this. It's of no use whatsoever to say anything to these fanatics. It completely escapes them how anyone could dare have a different perspective on Synthesis.

Besides, it's telling that the OP uses as an example a galaxy whose existence is in doubt.

Pot > Kettle > Black.

read my post, I respect other peoples visions, but I dont respect them breaking down other peoples visions

[The Angry One]

tettenjager wrote...

read my post, I respect other peoples visions, but I dont respect them breaking down other peoples visions

I respect opinions, but I will not stand by and let people promote something based on galactic scale violation. Sorry.
If they want their opinions unchallenged, why do they come here?

[Wayning_Star]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Fans of synthesis keep on insisting that synthesis is not a Disney-like utopian pipe dream and that free will is not compromised by indoctrination or another form of mind control.

If that is true then wouldn't the following be possible?

Infected Wrex: Hey Harby, I've discovered that the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy is only 25,000 light-years away from Sol.
Infected Harby: Can't you see I am busy building a penthouse for Liara?
Infected Wrex: But I am bored and it is full of organics.
Infected Harby: Organics you say? Sounds interesting. But it's too far.
Infected Wrex: You travel at 30 light-years a day. That's only 833 days. Must be doable. And I hate babysitting.
Infected Harby: So be it!

Or does the utopia of synthesis prevents aggression? The reapers' extremely violent behavior didn't prevent it in the past. If the hypothetical synthetics threat is true wouldn't that cause one intergalactic war after another in the future? Soon the reapers fill the universe. All because it is "inevitable"?

the simple answer is that races are NOT "infected" as it's the New normal. EVERYTHING is fused with EVERYTHING, there is no difference on a genetic/apparently molecular level. We'd have to investigate what motivates aggression to fully understand the questions needing answers...first, but then who/what are 'synthetics' in this version of MEU? 

http://en.wikipedia...._of_the_fittest