188 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

Melca36 wrote...

I do think some gamers have gotten lazier over the years and want everything handed to them. I think its why we got a dumbed down Deeproads (Legacy's was better) and Fade.

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

That said, I like long dungeon crawls (ala DAO) because it feels more like you really were down there for weeks and traveled many miles.  DA2 talked about "going deeper than anyone has ever gone before" and your party was supposedly gone a long time, but it sure didn't feel like it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I do think some gamers have gotten lazier over the years and want everything handed to them. I think its why we got a dumbed down Deeproads (Legacy's was better) and Fade.

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

Yes, yes... I remember the pace of life back in 2009... what an idyllic, quaint time it was! So long ago, so long ago...

[syllogi]

I'd prefer a main quest that is 20 hours or more in an RPG if you're rushing, with side quests and exploration adding to that total significantly.

Any reviewer marking down an RPG for having too much content is not a reviewer I would listen to. It's like a music reviewer who obviously hates a particular genre, their bias makes everything they say invalid.

[Pasquale1234]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yes, yes... I remember the pace of life back in 2009... what an idyllic, quaint time it was! So long ago, so long ago...

Cute.... but it feels like a non-sequitur to me.  A lot of people complained about the length of the deep roads and fade segments in DAO... and I believe that a "skip fade" mod is pretty popular.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:57 .

[coldwetn0se]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yes, yes... I remember the pace of life back in 2009... what an idyllic, quaint time it was! So long ago, so long ago...

Cute.... but it feels like a non-sequitur to me.  A lot of people complained about the length of the deep roads and fade segments in DAO... and I believe that a "skip fade" mod is pretty popular.

Okay, I had to laugh at Fast Jimmy's comment, but I do see what you are saying.  I personally have never had a problem taking my time on games, even when they weren't RPG's (so you can imagine how long it usually takes me to get through such a game....)  Interestingly enough, I have never minded the length of the Deep Roads in DAO, but the Fade.....well lets just say, I am getting a new gaming computer and am finally going to play DA on the PC as opposed to the Xbox, and I have every intention of downloading the "skip fade" mod.  That place just makes me dizzy!

[Wulfram]

Fade and the Deep Roads both suffer from having insufficient dialogue and character interaction mixed in. There's too much unrelenting combat and/or puzzles.

And it doesn't help that the places they take place in are ugly and depressing.

Though I always found the Deep Roads OK so long as you ignored the side quests. They were kind of long, but it made sense that they were. The Carta hideout beforehand annoyed me more - there's no reason it needed to be that long, and really killing a bunch of thugs doesn't feel very heroic.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:17 .

[TMJfin]

40-60 hours is what I prefer in RPG:s as long as it's not repetative. Origins was perfect in that aspect.

[coldwetn0se]

Wulfram wrote...

Fade and the Deep Roads both suffer from having insufficient dialogue and character interaction mixed in. There's too much unrelenting combat and/or puzzles.

And it doesn't help that the places they take place in are ugly and depressing.

Though I always found the Deep Roads OK so long as you ignored the side quests. They were kind of long, but it made sense that they were. The Carta hideout beforehand annoyed me more - there's no reason it needed to be that long, and really killing a bunch of thugs doesn't feel very heroic.

This!

......and the fade makes me dizzy.

[AstraDrakkar]

Personally I love long RPG's as long as they are story and content filled and not just meaningless fetch quests.

[Allan Schumacher]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

I think this is starting to resonate more as the kids of the 80s (I'm one) are now finding themselves with careers and families which can take away from some things.


I only played through DAO legitimately once (to be fair, replaying a game when you've tested the crap out of a lot of it is a challenge), but I was able to replay Alpha Protocol 3 times.  I think Alpha Protocol's shorter length serves it well IMO.

I'm about 80 hours in on my current Fallout New Vegas playthrough, but the "Gamer ADD" of my friends telling me about some big patches for Crusader Kings II has started to distract me.  I think I'll have to sit down today and refocus on FONV lest I just not finish off my campaign.


I used to highly correlate value with the amount of time I spend in the game, but Oblivion and Portal were two games that shattered that for me.  I was spending time in Oblivion without enjoying it, simply because I was being mechanical about "Here's a quest, do the quest, gain xp.... so real..."  I beat Portal in a single sitting and would much rather have spent $40 on it than Oblivion.  The amount of enjoyment I got from Portal (excluding replays) was just so much more than I got out of Oblivion, in spite of the length.

For myself, I find length is only a concern if I would otherwise be doing nothing if I wasn't playing the game.


I like for good games to have good length because it usually means "more good."  But I find length in general to be less of an issue for me nowadays.  This may be because I'm 31 and do a fair bit more with my time than just play video games compared to when I was 20.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:48 .

[Melca36]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I do think some gamers have gotten lazier over the years and want everything handed to them. I think its why we got a dumbed down Deeproads (Legacy's was better) and Fade.

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

That said, I like long dungeon crawls (ala DAO) because it feels more like you really were down there for weeks and traveled many miles.  DA2 talked about "going deeper than anyone has ever gone before" and your party was supposedly gone a long time, but it sure didn't feel like it.

I can understand that but thats why theres a save function.

The Deeproads was so uninspired in DA2's main game.  I will admit that it was greatly improved with the Legacy DLC

[Caenis]

I think RPG's have gotten how many gameplay hours down to a science (these aren't little handheld consoles XD, these are consoles and PCs that are made to be immersed in and explored). We want to play at MAXIMUM 60 hours and at MINIMUM 30 hours, and want replay value. We want to replay and see things we hadn't seen before in our rush to the end, and again, and again, and again (lol I don't know maybe that's just me)...

I always finish Bioware games in about 2 days sometimes '3' total the first time, and that's without playing the fully 72 hours that's in 3 days (EDIT: lol that's with coming up for air maybe only about 10 hours total XD), I say 100+ gameplay hours when I include, going back to replay the game to see if something I did would have been different, etc, when I take my time stroll around, look at the sky. Skip! Like la la la la, la la la---oh, I never saw her before...what, that's Liara's Father,,, how did I miss that 3 playthroughs over ! Hmmm, isn't this sky pretty (I would do that in KOTOR I, just stroll around and look at the sky going ahhh, if only the real world could be this awesome).

Modifié par Caenis, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:50 .

[jillabender]

Caenis wrote…

We want to replay and see things we hadn't seen before in our rush to the end, and again, and again, and again (lol I don't know maybe that's just me)...

I always finish Bioware in games in about 2 days sometimes '3' total, and that's without playing the fully 72 hours, I say 100+ gameplay hours when I include, going back to replay the game to see if something I did would have been different, etc, when I take my time stroll around, look at the sky. Skip! Like la la la la, la la la---oh, I never saw her before...what, that's Liara's Father,,, how did I miss that 3 playthroughs over ! Hmmm, isn't this sky pretty (I would do that in KOTOR I, just stroll around and look at the sky going ahhh, if only the real world could be this awesome).

Hehe… that sounds a lot like the way I play DA:O!

Allan Schumacher wrote…

I used to highly correlate value with the amount of time I spend in the game, but Oblivion and Portal were two games that shattered that for me.  I was spending time in Oblivion without enjoying it, simply because I was being mechanical about "Here's a quest, do the quest, gain xp.... so real..."  I beat Portal in a single sitting and would much
rather have spent $40 on it than Oblivion.  The amount of enjoyment I got from Portal (excluding replays) was just so much more than I got out of Oblivion, in spite of the length.

I love Portal, too – it's one of my all-time favourite games. I couldn't really get into Oblivion, either, although it sounds like you got farther than I did – I appreciate the effort that was obviously put into it, but it's just not my thing.

Modifié par jillabender, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:01 .

[Cosmochyck]

I think the RPG should be as long as it needs to be to properly tell a meaningful story. If I'm not engaged in the story, then I want it to be shorter just to "get through it". Don't drag it out just to "put in hours". Unlike Allan, I loved Oblivion and sank 100s of hours into it. Skryim didn't hold the same fun for me, but I have played it twice.
Bioware games for the most part I play at least twice, and I will admit that I figure the standard RPG should be between 30 and 40 hours or I'm not really getting my money's worth. Don't wrap up a story in 10 hours if you want people to feel engrossed in it, like they are really there.

[Allan Schumacher]

Don't wrap up a story in 10 hours if you want people to feel engrossed in it, like they are really there.

I think that this is an important thing, especially for a game based on story. While I don't think there's an "absolute minimum" in terms of how long an RPG should be for me to enjoy it, a large part of why I play RPGs is for the stories and there needs to be enough time to properly develop it and make it engaging.

Preferably with good replayability in it as well.

[esper]

Melca36 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I do think some gamers have gotten lazier over the years and want everything handed to them. I think its why we got a dumbed down Deeproads (Legacy's was better) and Fade.

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

That said, I like long dungeon crawls (ala DAO) because it feels more like you really were down there for weeks and traveled many miles.  DA2 talked about "going deeper than anyone has ever gone before" and your party was supposedly gone a long time, but it sure didn't feel like it.

I can understand that but thats why theres a save function.

The Deeproads was so uninspired in DA2's main game.  I will admit that it was greatly improved with the Legacy DLC

And I hated the deep road in da:o with a passion, mostly because that's what killed 80% of my warden, I would get them to that point and no longer since i just lost interest in the warden around there.

It is hard to say what makes a perfect lenght, and honestly I don't think that it is an exact hour amount. I have played 20 hours long games that bored me and felt unending and 60 hour games which never lost my interest and when I reached the end point I was left with the feeling of 'huh all ready, but I want more', and I think the key part of the feeling is somehow not having gameplay, levels, or areas which at some point stops being fun and just being a core that goes on, and on, and on.

[Fredward]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I do think some gamers have gotten lazier over the years and want everything handed to them. I think its why we got a dumbed down Deeproads (Legacy's was better) and Fade.

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

Yes, yes... I remember the pace of life back in 2009... what an idyllic, quaint time it was! So long ago, so long ago...

Hey, 2009 was like a sixth of my entire life ago, that's a long time. XD




I prefer long games too, but I have to be DOING something. I can't play Skyrim because of that, I get bored as hell after 10 hours. The awful storyline doesn't help. Oddly I don't have the same problem with New Vegas, though it does wear on me after a while too. I noticed my last run of Mass Effect was 46 hours, which suprised me because it felt waaaay shorter but whatever, fun game that.

[Pasquale1234]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think this is starting to resonate more as the kids of the 80s (I'm one) are now finding themselves with careers and families which can take away from some things.
.
.
.
I like for good games to have good length because it usually means "more good."  But I find length in general to be less of an issue for me nowadays.  This may be because I'm 31 and do a fair bit more with my time than just play video games compared to when I was 20.

IME, that tends to happen on either side of the "building a career and raising a family" period of life.  You might find that things slow down and you'll have a lot more time to devote to other hobbies and interests later in your life.

I don't have any particular rule of thumb about game length - each game is very different in that regard.

[Melca36]

esper wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I do think some gamers have gotten lazier over the years and want everything handed to them. I think its why we got a dumbed down Deeproads (Legacy's was better) and Fade.

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

That said, I like long dungeon crawls (ala DAO) because it feels more like you really were down there for weeks and traveled many miles.  DA2 talked about "going deeper than anyone has ever gone before" and your party was supposedly gone a long time, but it sure didn't feel like it.

I can understand that but thats why theres a save function.

The Deeproads was so uninspired in DA2's main game.  I will admit that it was greatly improved with the Legacy DLC

And I hated the deep road in da:o with a passion, mostly because that's what killed 80% of my warden, I would get them to that point and no longer since i just lost interest in the warden around there.

It is hard to say what makes a perfect lenght, and honestly I don't think that it is an exact hour amount. I have played 20 hours long games that bored me and felt unending and 60 hour games which never lost my interest and when I reached the end point I was left with the feeling of 'huh all ready, but I want more', and I think the key part of the feeling is somehow not having gameplay, levels, or areas which at some point stops being fun and just being a core that goes on, and on, and on.

There needs to be a reasonable compromise for the Deep Roads in DA:3 then because I hated it in DA:2
Legacy was an improvment though.

I honestly felt ripped off.  It lacked the depth and creepiness that it had it in Origins.

And yes I know it was long but the beauty of it is there was a save function and the ability to do it in sections. And seeing the archdemon for the first time was truly epic.

Modifié par Melca36, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:17 .

[TonberryFeye]

I may be alone in this, but I don't expect every moment of an RPG to be fun.

Mostly, this is because of length. For example, I expect a 20 minute TV show to engage me throughout. An hour long TV show can slow down a little and doesn't have to do something flashy to keep my attention.

Likewise, an RPG is allowed to be slow in places, or dull(er) in places, so long as the overall experience remains good. Let me give an example:

Acceptable 'dullness': I play the game until I reach a boss which kills me. I reload, try again and die again. I then go away and grind for 20-30 minutes to get a level up, come back and kill the boss.
That grinding isn't likely to be fun, but it is acceptable because I chose it in place of trying fancier, more outlandish tactics or simply buying every health potion in the kingdom and tanking the boss.

Unacceptable 'dullness': My quest is to kill ten wolves. When I've done that, my next quest is to kill twenty wolves. My third quest is to kill eight goblins, then ten orcs, and so on.
This is pointless grind. Grinding does not make a game fun. Grinding for the sake of grinding makes a game terrible, and it's why Act 1 of DA2 sucked so badly (your objective for the act is essentially "grind until you earn 50 gold.").

I do occasionally get bored of Origins, but since with all the DLC it can take 40-50 hours to complete a playthrough, that's fine; if I'm bored, I leave it for another day and come back fresh later.

When being bored is a core part of gameplay, that takes it too far.

[esper]

Melca36 wrote...

esper wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I do think some gamers have gotten lazier over the years and want everything handed to them. I think its why we got a dumbed down Deeproads (Legacy's was better) and Fade.

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

That said, I like long dungeon crawls (ala DAO) because it feels more like you really were down there for weeks and traveled many miles.  DA2 talked about "going deeper than anyone has ever gone before" and your party was supposedly gone a long time, but it sure didn't feel like it.

I can understand that but thats why theres a save function.

The Deeproads was so uninspired in DA2's main game.  I will admit that it was greatly improved with the Legacy DLC

And I hated the deep road in da:o with a passion, mostly because that's what killed 80% of my warden, I would get them to that point and no longer since i just lost interest in the warden around there.

It is hard to say what makes a perfect lenght, and honestly I don't think that it is an exact hour amount. I have played 20 hours long games that bored me and felt unending and 60 hour games which never lost my interest and when I reached the end point I was left with the feeling of 'huh all ready, but I want more', and I think the key part of the feeling is somehow not having gameplay, levels, or areas which at some point stops being fun and just being a core that goes on, and on, and on.

There needs to be a reasonable compromise for the Deep Roads in DA:3 then because I hated it in DA:2
Legacy was an improvment though.

I honestly felt ripped off.  It lacked the depth and creepiness that it had it in Origins.

And yes I know it was long but the beauty of it is there was a save function and the ability to do it in sections. And seeing the archdemon for the first time was truly epic.

If you meantion save function one more time I am going to say something very, very unpleasant to you. Save function have nothing to do with lenght. And you come off as insuiating that I don't know how to use it. I am sure that is not what you mean to say, but you are close to hinting it.  Too long = simply mean that it stops being fun, it doesn't matter that you can save and walk away, if the game is too long in a section it simply drains you fun away, because when you reload you have a feeling off... oh god, I am still not past this part. Groans.

The arch demon I had already seen in dreams, sure it was epic seeing it again, but in my opinion it would have still been epic had there not been hours of area before that.

As for creepiness = lenght, I really don't understand you. I found neither da2 nor da:o creepy in the deep road section. But I still hold that a five minute venture into the deep road where you character just walk in and see perhaps corpses mangled by say the Children would still feel creepier to me than the hour long treck through the Deep Road that was da:o. Most of the areas there felt as just filler, meant to simply drag the quest out more than it was.  

[Realmzmaster]

The length of the game is very subjective and will depend on the gamer. I liked the Fade and Deep Roads in DAO on my first playthrough after that not so much. On subsequent playthroughs it is just dull especially the Fade. The warden is by himself and there is little interaction with the companions.
The Fade sequence in Awakening was enjoyable because the entire party was there to interact with.

The Fade sequence in DA2 is short but more enjoyable because my whole party gets to go and not be separated. I can listen to the banter and have them betray me. I can then take a different party on a subsequent playthrough and hear different banter and different reasons for being betrayed. How Hawke responds to the betrayal can be different. The Fade sequence in DA2 just holds up better for me.

I am not interested in a long game for the sake of being long. I want the game to be good. I would rather have a short 30 hour game that is good with replayability than a tedious 100 hour sloughfest.

[esper]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The length of the game is very subjective and will depend on the gamer. I liked the Fade and Deep Roads in DAO on my first playthrough after that not so much. On subsequent playthroughs it is just dull especially the Fade. The warden is by himself and there is little interaction with the companions.
The Fade sequence in Awakening was enjoyable because the entire party was there to interact with.

The Fade sequence in DA2 is short but more enjoyable because my whole party gets to go and not be separated. I can listen to the banter and have them betray me. I can then take a different party on a subsequent playthrough and hear different banter and different reasons for being betrayed. How Hawke responds to the betrayal can be different. The Fade sequence in DA2 just holds up better for me.

I am not interested in a long game for the sake of being long. I want the game to be good. I would rather have a short 30 hour game that is good with replayability than a tedious 100 hour sloughfest.

I always think that I would have enjoyed the Fade in da:o if each dream had been a self containing puzzle. What made it feel too long for me was that I had to go in then get an ability and go into another area. If each dream had been self-contantning I might actually had enjoyed it.

[Jerrybnsn]

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

[quote]Pasquale1234 wrote...

[quote]Melca36 wrote...

I do think some gamers have gotten lazier over the years and want everything handed to them. I think its why we got a dumbed down Deeproads (Legacy's was better) and Fade.
[/quote]

I think people are just busier, have more distractions, and probably shorter attention spans.

[/quote]

Yes, yes... I remember the pace of life back in 2009... what an idyllic, quaint time it was! So long ago, so long ago...
[/quote]

In my days, Batman was just a linear, platform jumper, not this, this sandbox!

[/quote]

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .