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Mages VS. Templars: Both sides are wrong


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#1
DreamerM

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One side can boil your blood, poison your mind, and drop a fireball on your head.

The other side is part of a dehumanizing system that will lock you up forever, tell you you're evil and dangerous your entire life, and can summarily execute you whenever they decide they want to, if you're lucky.

So seeing this forum debate "mages vs. templars" like it's an actual DEBATE where a person can take sides and stuff is kind of amazing to me, just because I see no way that both sides don't suck because both sides can and will stomp all over the powerless.

If you pressed me, I'd say maybe I'd be more on the Templar side just because keeping heavily armored guys with swords between me and the dude who can freeze my eyeballs in my skull is something I'm kind of ok with. But being locked in a tower for your whole life doesn't sound like much fun either. So really, the whole "Templar" situation is a compromise, and in the noble tradition of compromises, it's goal is to make sure nobody gets what they really want.

If given the hard choice between mages and templars, I choose the sandwich.

Or, ya know, pick whichever side has done less to aggrivate me right then like I did at the end of DA2 when I decided that a tower full of kids shouldn't die because of what one ****** apostate did. Don't worry, I'll pick the templars again after they pull a kid out of a house or protect a town from some darkspawn or something. Because why not.

Modifié par DreamerM, 04 juillet 2012 - 12:23 .


#2
Lazy Jer

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DreamerM wrote...

One side can boil your blood, poison your mind, and drop a fireball on your head.


Well I'm not much a fan of the Justin Beiber's music either, but I don't see what that has to do with Tempalrs

The other side is part of a dehumanizing system that will lock you up forever, tell you you're evil and dangerous your entire life, and can summarily execute you whenever they decide they want to, if you're lucky.

 
You exagerate.  Working at the Department of Motor Vehicles isn't that bad.

So seeing this forum debate "mages vs. templars" like it's an actual DEBATE where a person can take sides and stuff is kind of amazing to me, just because I see no way that both sides don't suck because both sides can and will stomp all over the powerless.


Okay, in all seriousness you're missing the fact that both sides also have reasonable people working for them.

If you pressed me, I'd say maybe I'd be more on the Templar side just because keeping heavily armored guys with swords between me and the dude who can freeze my eyeballs in my skull is something I'm kind of ok with. But being locked in a tower for your whole life doesn't sound like much fun either. So really, the whole "Templar" situation is a compromise, and in the noble tradition of compromises, it's goal is to make sure nobody gets what they really want.


How does siding with the Templars accomplish that.  If the Templars win the 50% of the sides get what they want.  Which is more then nobody.

If given the hard choice between mages and templars, I choose the sandwich.


We're out of mayo

Or, ya know, pick whichever side has done less to aggrivate me right then like I did at the end of DA2 when I decided that a tower full of kids shouldn't die because of what one ****** apostate did. Don't worry, I'll pick the templars again after they pull a kid out of a house or protect a town from some darkspawn or something. Because why not.


Fair enough.

#3
ImperialHeir

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Me too.

Seekers seem the most reasonable right now, so I think my DA3 hero is going to hook up with Cassandra and her people.

#4
LolaLei

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Agreed. Let's hope the Seekers don't turn out to be just as bad lol.

#5
Guest_Nizaris1_*

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It is because of extremism. When we become an extremist, there will be injustice, and there will be no middle ground.

In DA2, both side are extremists, Hawke stand in the middle, and he/she can do nothing about it, but both side "forced" him'her to take side. In anyway, both side will make enemy to him/her.

Liberalism against conservatism, but liberals can be extremist too. Conservatives are more prone to be extremists to hold their interests, but liberals can be extremists if forcing change and refuse compromise. That what happen in DA2.

Mages are the oppressed party, oppressed by the conservative Templar. Anders is a liberalist but he using extreme measure. The oppressed mages become extremists to be free from the shackles of the conservatives Templar.

It is a cycle, something created in a form of liberals, become conservatives out of interests, then there will be a group of liberals out of it, and these group becomes conservatives later...in the process, there will be extremism and extremists.

Tevinter Imperium is the conservative, then Andraste is a liberal, then Andrastrians become conservative, then it will go on and on and on...

Modifié par Nizaris1, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:53 .


#6
DreamerM

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"And the party on the left's now the party on the right, and the beards are all grown longer overnight." See: Weather Underground. A peace-loving group who wanted to end a war by blowing stuff up.

There are reasonable people on both sides...and there are unreasonable people on both sides. Unless someone finds a beam of light to jump into that will fuse everyone into green glowy tranquil uniform bioware who will never have disagreements or problems ever again, I think that's probably going to continue to be the state of affairs. Everybody has legitimate complaints, and there are no GOOD solutions.

So, being asked to take a side right now? Kind of a non-starter. Because right now, I kind of don't care. I just know that in this situation, like the mooninites say, "The innocent will suffer. Big time."

Also, I like mustard on my sandwich anyway and the jar's right by your elbow. Can you pass it over here?

Modifié par DreamerM, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:13 .


#7
LolaLei

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DreamerM wrote...

There are reasonable people on both sides...and there are unreasonable people on both sides. Unless someone finds a beam of light to jump into that will fuse everyone into green glowy tranquil uniform bioware who will never have disagreements or problems ever again, I think that's probably going to continue to be the state of affairs. Everybody has legitimate complaints, and there are no GOOD solutions.
 


Urgh don't say that!

#8
Lotion Soronarr

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DreamerM wrote...
So, being asked to take a side right now? Kind of a non-starter. Because right now, I kind of don't care. I just know that in this situation, like the mooninites say, "The innocent will suffer. Big time."



Which is why I side with templars in general. Less innocents with suffer.
Sorry mages, but you are in a minority. Needs of the many and all that jazz.

#9
PizzaThe Hutt

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I would have liked the option of not siding up with either side and just slapping some sense in both Meredith and Orsino. There always has to be an alternative but nooo they were just too damned stubborn and demanded more from the other side than they should have and ended up arguing in circles before attacking each other. Don't really care for the fact that this game showed more of extremism, the world is not just black and white, there is always gray spaces where people can work together for the greater good instead of letting countless innocents suffer for someone's stupidity. Though I typically join up with the templars for the fact that it just seems safer for people so they don't have to get attacked by some abomination or something :\\...

#10
dragonflight288

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Seekers seem the most reasonable right now, so I think my DA3 hero is going to hook up with Cassandra and her people.


Well Lambert was the Lord High Seeker, and he was FAR from reasonable. He led the Templars against the Chantry because he wanted to kill every mage.

#11
MisterJB

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dragonflight288 wrote...
Well Lambert was the Lord High Seeker, and he was FAR from reasonable. He led the Templars against the Chantry because he wanted to kill every mage.

Devil's Advocate Mode: To be fair, Lambert only decreed war on the mages after they declared their independence. Previously, he only had them contained because he suspected there was a Demon on the loose in the Spiral which happened to be true.

In my opinion, the most unreasonable individual involved in the whole situation was Adrian and the deaths of the First Echanters present at the Conclave are on her head.

#12
dragonflight288

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Devil's Advocate Mode: To be fair, Lambert only decreed war on the mages after they declared their independence. Previously, he only had them contained because he suspected there was a Demon on the loose in the Spiral which happened to be true.


Hmm. I thought he and the templars were so fed up with the Divine wanting to reform things for the better treatment of mages, that at the time the mages were about to vote on independence, the templars started slaughtering them all, before the vote was even made.

#13
Samzo77

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Yeah, Templars are only mean because mages are dangerous, but mages only become threatening if Templars act mean. Which ones the chicken, which ones the egg, and which came first.

I think that's why this is such a gripping plot for the upcoming game, because you can find a reason to side with either group. It does feel like the game leans more towards favoring the mages and painting them as abused by a faulty system. But then you get characters like Anders who turn to terrorism, and Templars like Evangeline (from Asunder) who understand the mages need protecting, which brings you back to knowing there needs to be a balance, but not knowing what the balance should look like.

It's all very riveting.

#14
dragonflight288

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Yes it is. It can be aggravating debating with someone who ardently disagrees with you here on the forums. But we can play the game how we wish, based on our own opinions, and it's great.

#15
Caenis

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"Both Sides are wrong"

Noooo kidddingggg :). One side feels so backed into a corner thanks to Anders and his act of terrorism that they resort to magic that turned my Mother into the walking dead, THE other solves it's problems using mass genocide and 'brain washing' techniques.

They're all crazy, I didn't side with either of them then until I was forced to choose the lesser of two evils. Why oh why couldn't I say, Come on Isabela let's get on that boat and hit the sea*, oh yeah because either I was a Mage and knew Meredith would track me down and kill me, or my sister was a Mage and there was no way I was going to let anyone kill her, gotta fight to the end to protect her !

So yeah...stupid, crazy, wars...

Modifié par Caenis, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:47 .


#16
Plaintiff

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DreamerM wrote...
I just know that in this situation, like the mooninites say, "The innocent will suffer. Big time."

There are no innocents in Thedas. If a society can't function without hating, imprisoning and enslaving its own friends and family members, then it doesn't deserve to exist.

#17
Lotion Soronarr

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PizzaThe Hutt wrote...
There always has to be an alternative but nooo they were just too damned stubborn and demanded more from the other side than they should have and ended up arguing in circles before attacking each other.


Not necessarily. While there often is a better alternative, it doens't mean there is ALWAYS one.



Samzo77 wrote...
Yeah, Templars are only mean because mages are dangerous, but mages only
become threatening if Templars act mean
. Which ones the chicken, which
ones the egg, and which came first.


Untrue.

#18
Lotion Soronarr

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Plaintiff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
I just know that in this situation, like the mooninites say, "The innocent will suffer. Big time."

There are no innocents in Thedas. If a society can't function without hating, imprisoning and enslaving its own friends and family members, then it doesn't deserve to exist.


Then go kill all humans on the planet, because by your own definition, no one is innocent (including you).

If mages cannot live wihout being a danger to everyone around, then they do not deserve to exist. See, I can do that too?

#19
Plaintiff

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Then go kill all humans on the planet, because by your own definition, no one is innocent (including you).

No, that's not what I said. Take a reading comprehension class.

If mages cannot live wihout being a danger to everyone around, then they do not deserve to exist. See, I can do that too?

Complete and utter nonsense.

Mages do not choose to be mages. They don't have a choice in anything. The fact that they present a danger to others is an unfortunate fact of their existence, and not at all their fault. It doesn't matter if the mage uses their powers for good or evil, they will always be subject to abuse simply for being.

The society of Thedas chooses to work the way it does. It chooses to lock people up for crimes they have not committed, and it chooses to abuse them. It chooses to support a religion that preaches hate and turns them against their friends and family.

They have had the option of changing for 1000 years, and they didn't take it. If the entire continent burns, then that is no less than they deserve.

#20
Guest_Nizaris1_*

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Kester said in DA:O, "The Maker who create them for a purpose, if you can't trust the Maker, who can you trust?"

I don't believe in the Maker of course, but this Kester said makes sense. He is a ferryman, living near the Circle Tower, his every job dealing with both Mages and Templar, but he's neutral.

So how come people fear mages by thinking they are dangerous and need to be put down and lock up or being made tranquil? It is because of Chantry propaganda and act from extremists from both side.

Modifié par Nizaris1, 05 juillet 2012 - 07:51 .


#21
Lotion Soronarr

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Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Then go kill all humans on the planet, because by your own definition, no one is innocent (including you).

No, that's not what I said. Take a reading comprehension class.


Actually, that's exactly what you said.
Our modern societies also use and support methods that cause innocents to suffer occasionaly. Like for equample -a quarantene system. Every country in the world uses and supports it.

Hence by your logic, we do not deserve to exist.




If mages cannot live wihout being a danger to everyone around, then they do not deserve to exist. See, I can do that too?

Complete and utter nonsense.

Mages do not choose to be mages. They don't have a choice in anything. The fact that they present a danger to others is an unfortunate fact of their existence, and not at all their fault. It doesn't matter if the mage uses their powers for good or evil, they will always be subject to abuse simply for being.


Wether they want it or not is irrelevant. They are a danger. Period.
Guilt is irrelevant, but I could say they are guilty for not accepting their responsibility or guilty for falling to demonic possesion.

If you're shooting a gun at me I don't care diddly squat if you are trying to kill me or if your finger is just slipping several times in a row.


The society of Thedas chooses to work the way it does. It chooses to lock people up for crimes they have not committed, and it chooses to abuse them. It chooses to support a religion that preaches hate and turns them against their friends and family.


It CHOOSES to protect people from mages.
It CHOOSES to protect mages from themselves.
It CHOOSES to minimize the death toll, which would be a lot higher if mages roamed free.

People distrust and frear mages because it's reasonable to do so. A 100% atheist can EASILY hate/fear mages.


They have had the option of changing for 1000 years, and they didn't take it. If the entire continent burns, then that is no less than they deserve.


Actually, you assume nothing at all changed in 1000 years...something you cannto back up with evidence.
But again, it's irrelevant.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:05 .


#22
Lotion Soronarr

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Nizaris1 wrote...
So how come people fear mages by thinking they are dangerous and need to be put down and lock up or being made tranquil? It is because of Chantry propaganda and act from extremists from both side.


Oh..I dunno..It could be because they are an unpredictable walking natural disaster waiting to happen?

#23
Guest_Nizaris1_*

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Lotion Sonar wrote...
Oh..I dunno..It could be because they are an unpredictable walking natural disaster waiting to happen?


It is predictable...before blood mages doing something awful, they cut their wrist...before any mages going insane, they have bad dreams, before any mages becomes an abomination, they panicked out of something then "you know nothing of magic!"- Thrask daughter for got her name

#24
Plaintiff

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[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually, that's exactly what you said.
Our modern societies also use and support methods that cause innocents to suffer occasionaly. Like for equample -a quarantene system. Every country in the world uses and supports it.

Hence by your logic, we do not deserve to exist.
[/quote]
Quarantine is not imprisonment, or enslavement. Your logic is non-existent.


[quote]Wether they want it or not is irrelevant. They are a danger. Period.[/quote]
Weapons are a danger, how come they aren't banned?

Everyone is a danger. We all possess the power to kill. We do not imprison people for what they might do.


[quote]Guilt is irrelevant, but I could say they are guilty for not accepting their responsibility or guilty for falling to demonic possesion.[/quote]
It's completely relevant.

Non-mages are also susceptible to demonic possession. Why are they not held to the same standards of responsibility?


[quote]If you're shooting a gun at me I don't care diddly squat if you are trying to kill me or if your finger is just slipping several times in a row.[/quote]
A completely garbage comparison, as per usual. A mage sitting at home, minding their own business is not at all similar to someone shooting you, either accidentally or on purpose.[/quote]


[quote]It CHOOSES to protect people from mages.[/quote]
You mean it fails spectacularly.


[quote]It CHOOSES to protect mages from themselves.[/quote]
"The constant threat of rape means we care!"


[quote]It CHOOSES to minimize the death toll, which would be a lot higher if mages roamed free.[/quote]
How is the death toll minimised? Prove that it would be higher if mages were free.


[quote]People distrust and frear mages because it's reasonable to do so. A 100% atheist can EASILY hate/fear mages.[/quote]
Where the hell does religion come into it?

[quote]Actually, you assume nothing at all changed in 1000 years...something you cannto back up with evidence.
But again, it's irrelevant.[/quote]
What evidence do you have to support any of the nonsense you've been spouting? At least I'm not making baseless, sweeping judgements about how a massive subset of humans are going to behave.

The Circle system has existed for a millenium, that's established lore. It is inherently abusive, and that's a fact. Anyone who looks at it and doesn't see abuse is blind. The only way it could cease to be abusive is if the core principles on which it was founded were fundamentally changed and the Chantry was removed from power.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:06 .


#25
MisterJB

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Plaintiff wrote...
Quarantine is not imprisonment, or enslavement. Your logic is non-existent.

Healthy, harmless people are often trapped inside quarantine zones by force.
So, yes, we do imprison people for what they might do.


Weapons are a danger, how come they aren't banned?

Everyone is a danger. We all possess the power to kill. We do not imprison people for what they might do.

Not everyone has the power to burn down buildings with a tought. A mundane with a sword is dangerous but much more easily containable than a blood mage.

It's completely relevant.

Non-mages are also susceptible to demonic possession. Why are they not held to the same standards of responsibility?

Because possessed mundanes do not become Abominations which is also the main reason why most demons tend to go after the mages.
So, mundanes who are possessed are very rare and nowhere near as dangerous as a possessed mage whose magical power will not at a demon's disposal.

A completely garbage comparison, as per usual. A mage sitting at home, minding their own business is not at all similar to someone shooting you, either accidentally or on purpose.

Not all mages choose to just mind their own business and even those who do are at the risk of turning into an Abomination.
According to the codex, even the smallest of Abominations tend to kill hundreds before they are slain.

Yes, it's a flawed system where the many suffer for the crimes of a few but there really is no other solution.

"The constant threat of rape means we care!"

Mage supporters warp on how we focus on the extremes but you are doing the same here.
Most templars are rigid zealots and this could use a change but templars like Ser Alrik are an extreme minority. Most Circle mages are not under the constant threat of rape.

How is the death toll minimised? Prove that it would be higher if mages were free.

Connor, one small, measly powerful mage child summoned a demon and almost turned the entirety of Redcliff to ash and cinders. It wouldn't have happened had he received proper training on the Circle and been under a templar's watch.
And this was a simple accident caused by a child who didn't know better. Should we simply trust mages with freedom and don't expect them to become another Uldred?

Where the hell does religion come into it?

In your previous post, you claimed the Chantry is to blame because it preaches hate and fear. However, atheistic societies like the Qunari still fear mages and they are far more extreme than Andrastian societies.

What evidence do you have to support any of the nonsense you've been spouting? At least I'm not making baseless, sweeping judgements about how a massive subset of humans are going to behave..

Elites tend to opress the less fortunate people. Mages are and will always be an elite even more than a king because they have actual power to cause untold level of destruction whereas a king only has the power his subjects attribute to him.

The Circle system has existed for a millenium, that's established lore. It is inherently abusive, and that's a fact. Anyone who looks at it and doesn't see abuse is blind. The only way it could cease to be abusive is if the core principles on which it was founded were fundamentally changed and the Chantry was removed from power.

The Core principles of the Circle are just fine. Mages are dangerous to both mundanes and themselves, willingly or not. We should keep them in a contained location where they can be taught to control their powers and we can ensure these powers are not abused.

Somethings do need to change like the public's view towards magic; it needs to be seen as both dangerous and wonderous; and maybe social visits from mundane families could be made possible but the Circle is not inherently abusive. In fact, mages live better than most peasants. Sure, they don't have as many freedoms but they live in a safe, comfy tower where they receive an education usually reserved only for noble families.

Like I said before, Andrastian society is far more tolerant in their views towards magic than, say, Qunari and there is now an intelligent, compassionate DIvine in power.