272 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

It isn't conflicting lore. It's been addressed from the beginning that Emperor Drakon I created the Chantry of Andraste, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi from his ideology as a member of a Cult of Andraste. The History of the Circle explains why mages are - in present day Thedas (prior to the rebellion) -locked up in Circle Towers, and separated from the rest of society. It's a history segment of how the modern Circles came to be.

Rather than let a cultist or an organized Inquisition dictate how mages should be treated, I think GavrielKay has a point in stressing that mages are people - in contrast to Cullen's argument that mages can't be treated as people because they are weapons. Giving templars "domination over mages by divine right" isn't the solution; they shouldn't have the power of life and death over these people. Mages have resisted the Chantry controlled Circles for centuries, and it's lead to rebellions and unrest - from Aldenon the Great and his rebel mages fighting against the templars, to the continental rebellion that has caused a schism for mages and templars.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Conflicts or inconcistencies in lore appear from one of two things:

1) Deliberately put there by the author
2) Authors just missed it. Which is rather common given under how much scrutiny fans put each line of text.

You can certanly assume that everything that is incosistent is deliberate to prove that chantry/tempalrs is wrong and evil. However, other people can just as easily assume a writer oversight.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

And as I said before - nations and civilizations survived even in areas hit frequently by great disasters that claimed many lives. The resilience of humans and nations does not prove mages arne't dangerous, and them not having issues proves nothing other than they were resigned to their fate. To their lot in life. For all you know, they might have regarded being killed by a mage as divine punishent or as natural as you consider an avalanche.

In that case evidence would be nice.  Show some evidence, any evidence, that the damage/death/injury rate of abominations in society were greater pre-circle in those places than post circle.  Your assertions are meaningless.

Connor. And pretty much any abomination and blood mage that rampaged free.

Then how about you prove any evidence of the opposite - that the land was safer befre the circles?

I have always aknowledged that the Codex Entries are written from a PoV.  However, in this case "History of the Circle" is written by Sister Petrine and thus from the Chantry Point of View.  Given what it says about why the circles were founded, the fact it is written from the Chantry PoV is actually very illuminating.  What it means is that if there is any bias it would be against (not for) th mages.

It's SISTER PETRINE's point of view.
And I can easily chug it down to writer oversight, especially since it conflicts with what DG said later.

I don't wish to go into specifics with the new forum rules because those specifics could be easily be misconstrued as open attacks on Bioware Staff, and you are not worth getting banned over.  Suffice it to say that some of DG's moral reasoning and his criticism of moral reasoning of those who are critics of his work have at least to me been rather insulting.  A quick look through the archives will be sufficient I think.  I would be happy to post and link some examples, but I'd rather not given that much harsher new official policy.  Suffice it to say there is very good reason why DG and I are not exactly on each other christmas card lists and leave it at that.

In other words, some of DG's toughs on the morality of the Circles and their necesity are not to your liking, since they esentially undermine your position.

I recall DG clearly saying that the fear of mages was well-founded and that beforeh te circles the lands were a more dangerous place.

Even if this statement were precisely true the way you said it, it STILL doesn't prove what you think it does.  IIRC DG has never said the circle system was either necessary or justified.

If the land swere a more dangeous place, then I say that makes them justified.
many > few

You'll continue dismissing everything I say, and I'll do the same to you. Which begs the question as to why you are even bothering, if I am so beyond reason as you claim.

That's because you never PROVE anything.  Yes a lot of our evidence is circumstantial because of the nature of the lore we have, but at least we are presenting it in the best and most logical framework you have.  You, OTOH, have offered no evidence whatsoever, and even when I specifically asked refused to post your so-called private convo with DG.  Without that, we can only go by his public  statements.

I presented plenty of evidence. Plenty of lore and game events back me up on the danger of mages roaming free. And the conversations with DG are the least of it. Even wihout them the point still stands strong.
Not that you'll ever agree.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Can you quantify that with a percent?  If both DAO and DA2 are any indication, a large percentage of mages get "missed" and aren't in the circle at all.  Not only that, but you assume a 1:1:1 relationship between number of mages and abominations and troubles caused by abominations, and if there is anything we know, that is not the case.

Can you quantify the large numbers of missed ones with a percentage?

As for Conner, that entire situation was CAUSED by the nature of the circles and his mother's understandable urge to protect her son.

Nope. It was caused by the mages suceptibility to demons. It was caused by Connors desires. Circle or no circle - that desire would be there.
In fact, had Isolde done what the Circel system proposes, Redcliffe would have never happened.

The point is the game and lore evidence strongly suggests that the very existance of the circle as it is being used now actually greatly increases the rate of abomintions by making it harder for a mage to have a normal life and acceptance without society AND by making it so that it is harder for a mage to get a good education (to be SAFE around others) without subejcting themselves to chantry inspired imprisonment (and often torture or worse).

I disagree.
For one mages do get education in the Circles. For another, even if we assume the abominations rates are higher, they still happen in the Circle and are contained. This is better than it happening outside. 

Thus I'd argue that the circle even in absolute numbers has actually made the problem worse.

And you'd argue wrong.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You can certainly assume that everything that is inconsistent is deliberate to prove that chantry/templars is wrong and evil.

I don't think the History of the Circle is inconsistent - it tells about how the modern Circles of Magi came to be isolated in Circle Towers as a result of a peaceful protest by mages who protested their lack of rights under the Andrastian regime. Apparently, the prior incarnation of the Circle of Magi didn't isolate mages from society, but rather restricted what they could use their magical abilities for in the cathedral.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In fact, had Isolde done what the what the Circel proposes, Redcliffe would never have happened.

It's possible. Connor could have become an abomination in the Circle Tower instead, during the failed rebellion. It's also possible that Connor wouldn't have made a deal with a demon had he known that the "bad lady" was a demon, which would have happened with proper instruction, which wasn't going to happen with Jowan.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

For one mages do get education in the Circles.

Academic education, but depending on the Circle Tower, mages could be isolated to keep them from fraternizing with others (as addressed in the Templars and Chastity thread, and as we see during Dragon Age II that the Gallows houses one such Circle of Magi given the isolation of mages like Emile). It makes their social education more lacking when they can't function in the real world as a result of how the Circle brought them up.

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As for Conner, that entire situation was CAUSED by the nature of the circles and his mother's understandable urge to protect her son.

Nope. It was caused by the mages suceptibility to demons. It was caused by Connors desires. Circle or no circle - that desire would be there.
In fact, had Isolde done what the Circel system proposes, Redcliffe would have never happened.

So you do blame the child for the Redcliffe incident?  

Not the mother who was ashamed because of Chantry teachings and didn't want to give up her son for life?  Not Loghain who poisoned Eamon because he was a paranoid lunatic?  Not even Jowan who should have admitted he was a poor tutor?

Connor was innocent in all this, but your theory says the big problem was that he wasn't locked up for life.

Sheesh.

Redcliffe proves that the Chantry's overzealous policies lead to more trouble than they solve.  And if Redcliffe wasn't enough evidence of that, there's this whole war thing going on now.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In other words, some of DG's toughs on the morality of the Circles and their necesity are not to your liking, since they esentially undermine your position.

David Gaider tends to make statements that go against the games, like his comments about tranquil mages. Saying that tranquil mages have free will and are like everyone else ignores the fact that people stripped of their emotions would be radically different, and both games contradict his statement about free will. Owain is cleaning the storeroom instead of hiding from abominations while Alrik is using tranquility to have sex with female mages (as we know from a tranquil mage, and his threat to the child mage Ella).

There was also his recent claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas, despite The Warden being able to say the Maker doesn't exist, and Morrigan explicitly stating that she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power; not to mention the Qunari following a philosophy and not a deity.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:56 .

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Connor. And pretty much any abomination and blood mage that rampaged free.

Then how about you prove any evidence of the opposite - that the land was safer befre the circles?

Connor became an abomination through Isolde's fear of the circle. Isolde was so terrified of how Connor would be treated at the circle that she chose to hire an apostate to train her son rather than send him there. If there was a place where mages could be trained by other mages independently without chantry or Templar influence, that would not have happened. 

Connor becoming an abomination and all of the casualties resulting from that are a direct result of the fear the circles instill in people. 

Also, saying "pretty much any abomination that rampaged free" isn't particularly specific. For all you know, that mage could have resorted to becoming an abomination because he was about to be executed for failing his Harrowing, or because he'd had enough of circle life and just wanted out. So unless you have specific examples of abominations that weren't caused by: Templars, the circle or fear of the circle, then based on the proportion of abominations that are caused by those three things, talking about rampaging abominations in general statistically attributes more deaths to those three causes than any other reason. You are describing a fault of the circle system for me. 

Finally specifying a blood mage rampaging free is being unnecessarily specific. You don't say 'primal mage' or 'spirit mage'. So what if a mage knows blood magic as well. 

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
[quote]
And as I said before - nations and civilizations survived even in areas hit frequently by great disasters that claimed many lives. The resilience of humans and nations does not prove mages arne't dangerous, and them not having issues proves nothing other than they were resigned to their fate. To their lot in life. For all you know, they might have regarded being killed by a mage as divine punishent or as natural as you consider an avalanche.
[/quote]

In that case evidence would be nice.  Show some evidence, any evidence, that the damage/death/injury rate of abominations in society were greater pre-circle in those places than post circle.  Your assertions are meaningless.[/quote]

Connor. And pretty much any abomination and blood mage that rampaged free.

Then how about you prove any evidence of the opposite - that the land was safer befre the circles?
[/quote]

The Conner situation was directly caused by Isolde's FEAR of the circle and FEAR (inspired by her religous belief) and hatred of magic which ultimately can be put on the Chantry's feet.  As for the second, you are assuming your own evidence.  Don't.  There are plenty of Abominations that have rampaged free after the circles were established.  You have yet to show any concrete objective evidence.

As for the burden of proof, it is on you.  For almost the entire history of civilization (until about 800 years ago or so), ALL mages lived alongside mundanes, and civilization not only survived but flourished.  When mages WERE locked away it wasn't because of a rash of abominations or a deep concern over the safety of the populace.  It was a Chantry inspired attempt to break what amounted to a magical worker's strike.

In short the circles (in their current form) aren't about protection at all.  They are about Chantry control of magic.  Protection has nothing to do with it.

[quote]
[quote]
I have always aknowledged that the Codex Entries are written from a PoV.  However, in this case "History of the Circle" is written by Sister Petrine and thus from the Chantry Point of View.  Given what it says about why the circles were founded, the fact it is written from the Chantry PoV is actually very illuminating.  What it means is that if there is any bias it would be against (not for) th mages.[/quote]

It's SISTER PETRINE's point of view.
And I can easily chug it down to writer oversight, especially since it conflicts with what DG said later.
[/quote]

The Codex entry is canon (and confirmed canon since it appears unchanged in DA2 as well) and Sister Petrine is a CHANTRY AUTHOR in good standing which means it very much was written from the Chantry PoV.

[quote]
[quote]
I don't wish to go into specifics with the new forum rules because those specifics could be easily be misconstrued as open attacks on Bioware Staff, and you are not worth getting banned over.  Suffice it to say that some of DG's moral reasoning and his criticism of moral reasoning of those who are critics of his work have at least to me been rather insulting.  A quick look through the archives will be sufficient I think.  I would be happy to post and link some examples, but I'd rather not given that much harsher new official policy.  Suffice it to say there is very good reason why DG and I are not exactly on each other christmas card lists and leave it at that.[/quote]

In other words, some of DG's toughs on the morality of the Circles and their necesity are not to your liking, since they esentially undermine your position.
[/quote]

No, DG tends to forget and violate his own lore as Lobs has already indicated. I know for a FACT that the human noble warden in DAO can be an open Athiest for example which is something that DG has recently denied.  I also know that DG's moral statements regarding his audience are some that I have found very offensive in the past and I'll leave it at that.

[quote]
[quote][quote]
I recall DG clearly saying that the fear of mages was well-founded and that beforeh te circles the lands were a more dangerous place.
[/quote]

Even if this statement were precisely true the way you said it, it STILL doesn't prove what you think it does.  IIRC DG has never said the circle system was either necessary or justified.[/quote]

If the land swere a more dangeous place, then I say that makes them justified.
many > few
[/quote]

It still doesn't prove what you think it does even if that is an exact quote which I very much doubt.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
You'll continue dismissing everything I say, and I'll do the same to you. Which begs the question as to why you are even bothering, if I am so beyond reason as you claim.
[/quote]

That's because you never PROVE anything.  Yes a lot of our evidence is circumstantial because of the nature of the lore we have, but at least we are presenting it in the best and most logical framework you have.  You, OTOH, have offered no evidence whatsoever, and even when I specifically asked refused to post your so-called private convo with DG.  Without that, we can only go by his public  statements.
[/quote]

I presented plenty of evidence. Plenty of lore and game events back me up on the danger of mages roaming free. And the conversations with DG are the least of it. Even wihout them the point still stands strong.
Not that you'll ever agree.

[/quote]

No you haven't.  You claim the world is safer with the the circles because of 'common sense' and then you dismiss every lore entry that doesn't back your claims.  You haven't shown or proven a darn thing.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 juillet 2012 - 05:36 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion your entire is based on 1 statement of DG. He said that their where more abominations in the past. And thats it. Their is no context involved. He never said that the increase of abominations was caused because of a lack of circles. If you look at the history of thedas the land was ravaged after centuries of war against the dark spawn and the following exalted marches. After that the thedas equivalent of the dark ages hit. So all centers of magical learning safe for the tevinter imperium where destroyed no wonder that their where more abominations. But i don't think the people at the time gave a **** about abominations and where more concerned about famine disease and raids.

Also saying that the many>few is short sighted and laughable when the so called few are the ones that make sure that the many live.

[MisterJB]

You know, maybe we should consider destroying magic once the Qun and Darkspawn are gone.

No, hear me out. It is true that magic is capable of many wonders as well as horrors but look at the Deep Rods.T hey are one of the most amazing constructions in all of Thedas and they were done completely without the use of any magic. The Qunari have invented gunpowder exactly because they are not as reliant on magic as humans.

So, in order to break the hold magic has had on the human race since the dawn of life in Thedas, maybe we should consider destroying magic alltogether.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

You know, maybe we should consider destroying magic once the Qun and Darkspawn are gone.

No, hear me out. It is true that magic is capable of many wonders as well as horrors but look at the Deep Rods.T hey are one of the most amazing constructions in all of Thedas and they were done completely without the use of any magic. The Qunari have invented gunpowder exactly because they are not as reliant on magic as humans.

So, in order to break the hold magic has had on the human race since the dawn of life in Thedas, maybe we should consider destroying magic alltogether.

So you are advocating genocide then?

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Research. On how to sever Thedas' connection to the Fade without neutering everyone's mind.

Unless you would argue that the very act of destroying magic itself is genocide.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

You know, maybe we should consider destroying magic once the Qun and Darkspawn are gone.

No, hear me out. It is true that magic is capable of many wonders as well as horrors but look at the Deep Rods.T hey are one of the most amazing constructions in all of Thedas and they were done completely without the use of any magic. The Qunari have invented gunpowder exactly because they are not as reliant on magic as humans.

So, in order to break the hold magic has had on the human race since the dawn of life in Thedas, maybe we should consider destroying magic alltogether.

So you are advocating genocide then?

-Polaris

Yes we have to nuke the Fade, it's the only way.

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

[Kali073]

MisterJB
wrote...

The inhabitants of Brooklyn don't have an enormous natural advantage over the rest of the world.

The discrepancy of powers between muggles and wizards is noty as ridiculously huge as the one that exists between mages and mundanes. Again, these are different eras we are talking about.

That doesn't excuse it. My point is that you can't punish someone for a crime they haven't committed yet. Also there will always be advantages and disadvantages between people, it's the natural order of things. Just like you can't lock up mages because they have the potential to become abominations and have and 'advantage' you can't lock up all nobles because they might become like Howe, or punish the Templars because they have martial skill so superior to ordinary farmers that if they do bad things in the future because they cracked or the might do something bad in the future because of their lyrium addiction the farmers would be helpless.

Doesn't seem to decrease? We don't exactly have the number of abominations that existed before thw Circle system was put in place. However, proper magical education coupled with the templars atent for any sign of mages consorting with demons should decrease the chances of any of them turning into abominations.

And, even if it didn't do so, it is an undeniable fact that if a mage is possessed inside the tower, he will claim much less victims than if he had been possessed inside a city due to not having as many potential victims nearby as well as faster templar response.

I'm not saying that mages shouldn't be properly trained. They should. For their own and other's benefit. I just don't see why that place of learning has to be filled with oppression. Also, going by the number of abominations and blood mages running around in origins and DA2, the circle system isn't doing much.

Unless they're mages that have been conditioned to hate and fear their own powers I think they would want to learn. If only to avoid setting themselves on fire.

An abomination will still do a lot of damage in the tower, or are the other mages and the templars with them not counted as victims? No matter what, it will still involve a lot of innocents dying. Faster Templar response is a valid claim, however, it is not always[/i] effective (ie Broken Tower quest). As for containment, it probably is the superior alternative but that's not the point.

Demons will always have ways to tempt mankind due to the sad fact that greed is in our nature.

It is true that many mages have turned to blood magic out of desperation. In the name of "freedom".

I never said the ones that are greedy wouldn't still turn to blood magic, though perhaps I expressed myself badly. English is, obviously, not my native language. However those that are willing to turn to blood magic out of greed or lust for power, not desperation or fear, will do so regardless if the circle exists or not.

I just thought they could decrease the number of mages that turn to blood magic in desperation, that's all. You might not consider freedom a worthy cause, either because you thing it's just an excuse or because you think they have enough freedom that they should be satisfied.

How would you feel if you were never allowed to leave your house or apartment building except to take a stroll on the lawn occasionally under armed guard and if you ever took a step out of line people would be lined up to kill you? I would have a fair bit of resentment toward those imprisoning me and I would want freedom.

However, as the Tevinter Imperium proved and continues to prove, even if the templars didn't exist, mages would still find reasons to use blood magic.

Using the Tevinter Imperium is not something I consider a valid argument. Not only were those different people in a different culture, you can't judge a whole race or group by the actions of some "representatives" of that group. Like you can't judge all Germans by Hitler, Göring and Himmler.  Power hungry people that get off on other people's misery are the same whether they have magic or not. Once they have power they're not going to be easy to get rid off. You can claim that mages have an advantage but there are also people able to nullify that magic - and unlike what the Chantry claims you don't have to be a templar to be able to use that power.

That said, I do agree that magic is easy to abuse and I can understand if people fear it. It needs restrictions, but the law already has those restrictions - no murder, no theft etc.

Whether I'm killed by an armed knight, or a mage, or a noble I would probably just as helpless either way. All of those groups would have "advantages" far superior to my own measly abilities and influence. Yet mages are the only ones that should be locked up in advanced, before they have even done anything.

This my opinion, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Modifié par Kali073, 19 juillet 2012 - 09:33 .

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

You know, maybe we should consider destroying magic once the Qun and Darkspawn are gone.

No, hear me out. It is true that magic is capable of many wonders as well as horrors but look at the Deep Rods.T hey are one of the most amazing constructions in all of Thedas and they were done completely without the use of any magic. The Qunari have invented gunpowder exactly because they are not as reliant on magic as humans.

So, in order to break the hold magic has had on the human race since the dawn of life in Thedas, maybe we should consider destroying magic alltogether.

The elves would never accept it. Since they are all about recovering their lost heritage and the culture of Arlathan, and they believe every elf of Arlathan was a mage, I expect the only option would be to exterminate the elves who refuse. Which is hardly an option.

Also the deep roads are very old. They've been around for a long time, certainly as long as the dwarves of the Primeval Thaig. So I'd hold off on saying that they were created entirely without magic just yet. 

Finally, your connection to the fade is what provides both mana for mages and emotions for everyone else. That one connection is one and the same. And since 100% of mages who have been made Tranquil and then conscious again have begged for death afterwards, inflicting such terrifying torture on a single soul is an unthinkable crime. Doing it to every mage born is not an option.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

You know, maybe we should consider destroying magic once the Qun and Darkspawn are gone.

No, hear me out. It is true that magic is capable of many wonders as well as horrors but look at the Deep Rods.T hey are one of the most amazing constructions in all of Thedas and they were done completely without the use of any magic. The Qunari have invented gunpowder exactly because they are not as reliant on magic as humans.

So, in order to break the hold magic has had on the human race since the dawn of life in Thedas, maybe we should consider destroying magic alltogether.

Nice thought untill you encounter one bastard that wields magic and your in very dire straits. You need to master this kind of power not destroy it.

[GavrielKay]

MisterJB wrote...
You know, maybe we should consider destroying magic once the Qun and Darkspawn are gone.

There's always another boogie man around the corner.  It would be very shortsighted to assume that magic would never be necessary against a new enemy.  Plus, I'd really like the option of magical healing.

[MisterJB]

To clarify, I'm not looking to breed out magic or kill all mages. I would rather research a cleaner method that would allow to sever the connection between Thedas and the Fade without destroying the emotions of mankind.

You could claim it is impossible but restoring the minds and powers of Tranquils was once tought impossible too.

[GavrielKay]

MisterJB wrote...
The inhabitants of Brooklyn don't have an enormous natural advantage over the rest of the world.

Sometimes I wonder if they would dispute that point, just based on pride

Most people accept that everyone should start out life with the same basic rights.  If you want to take those rights away from someone you have to have a good reason.  For modern societies, that reason is generally crime.  There's a social contract we all participate in that says the gov't will pretty much leave you alone as long as you follow the rules.  Once you break the rules, the gov't gets to enact penalties according to the law.  Other cases are medical quarantines or protective custody, etc.

The burden of proving that society is better off when the rights of any given person are taken away is on society.  The more people whose rights are impacted, the higher that bar should be set.

Thus, it is on the Chantry to prove that not only do they NOT make the mage/abomination problem worse with their system, but that they actively make society better by their actions.  And further, since so many people's rights are at stake, they should also have to prove that even IF their system is effective, that it is in fact the MOST effective system.

The forum posters have presented any number of ways in which the system could seemingly be improved, not the least of which is stringently enforcing what rules there are governing Templar abuses.

So, even IF the Chantry has reduced mundane deaths and even IF there are fewer abominations with the circle system (both of which I think we are very short on evidence to prove) then there is still the huge problem of how much better the system should be so that mages aren't raped, whipped, beaten, Tranquiled etc on the Templars' whim and forced into extremes of declaring open rebellion in an attempt to better their circumstances.

[MisterJB]

Kali073 wrote...
That doesn't excuse it.

I am of the opinion that it does.

My point is that you can't punish someone for a crime they haven't committed yet.

It's just a precaution. Just like we don't let an ordinary person own a nuclear reactor.
Unfortunately, in the DA world, people are the nuclear reactors.
 

Also there will always be advantages and disadvantages between people, it's the natural order of things. Just like you can't lock up mages because they have the potential to become abominations and have and 'advantage' you can't lock up all nobles because they might become like Howe, or punish the Templars because they have martial skill so superior to ordinary farmers that if they do bad things in the future because they cracked or the might do something bad in the future because of their lyrium addiction the farmers would be helpless.

The nobles only have an importance that society attributes to them. You can take a noble's money away and convince its soldiers to disobey him.
The ability to imolate people with your mind has a very real value.

As for templars, you can train peasants in the martial arts so they can defend themselves. You can't train peasants to be mages.

I'm not saying that mages shouldn't be properly trained. They should. For their own and other's benefit. I just don't see why that place of learning has to be filled with oppression. Also, going by the number of abominations and blood mages running around in origins and DA2, the circle system isn't doing much.

Unless they're mages that have been conditioned to hate and fear their own powers I think they would want to learn. If only to avoid setting themselves on fire.

The Circle of Kirkwall was a specially opressive place. Mages who pass their Harrowings are forbidden from becoming Tranquils in other Circles, for instance

In DAO, picture what would have happened had Uldred managed to slaugther the templars and leave the tower.

An abomination will still do a lot of damage in the tower, or are the other mages and the templars with them not counted as victims? No matter what, it will still involve a lot of innocents dying.

They count but mages can defend themselves from abominations better than mundanes and they are just not as numerous. The number of casualties would be much lower than if a mage turns into an Abomination in the middle of Redcliff, which did happen and the entire town dies if the Warden chooses not to help.
 

Faster Templar response is a valid claim, however, it is not always[/i] effective (ie Broken Tower quest).

They did contain the situation until reinforcements with the Right of Annulment arrived.

I never said the ones that are greedy wouldn't still turn to blood magic, though perhaps I expressed myself badly. English is, obviously, not my native language. However those that are willing to turn to blood magic out of greed or lust for power, not desperation or fear, will do so regardless if the circle exists or not.

I just thought they could decrease the number of mages that turn to blood magic in desperation, that's all. You might not consider freedom a worthy cause, either because you thing it's just an excuse or because you think they have enough freedom that they should be satisfied.

How would you feel if you were never allowed to leave your house or apartment building except to take a stroll on the lawn occasionally under armed guard and if you ever took a step out of line people would be lined up to kill you? I would have a fair bit of resentment toward those imprisoning me and I would want freedom.

I understood you just fine, don't worry. My point is: Right now, the mages use blood magic in the name of freedom. However, should they be given freedom, they will simply find other justifications to use blood magic. Maybe power, maybe necessity.
I find it hard to believe that most mages would not abuse their powers should they be given freedom.

Using the Tevinter Imperium is not something I consider a valid argument. Not only were those different people in a different culture, you can't judge a whole race or group by the actions of some "representatives" of that group. Like you can't judge all Germans by Hitler, Göring and Himmler.  Power hungry people that get off on other people's misery are the same whether they have magic or not. Once they have power they're not going to be easy to get rid off. You can claim that mages have an advantage but there are also people able to nullify that magic - and unlike what the Chantry claims you don't have to be a templar to be able to use that power.

"Are". Tevinter hasn't changed at all.
It's true different cultures exist but, like Morrigan says, the differences are mostly meaningless. We are all people, we are all greedy and selfish. Give us power and we will abuse the Fade out of it.
Tevinter, Orlesian, Ferelden, doesn't matter.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:39 .

[Xilizhra]

Why destroy magic? Not only would severing matter from spirit probably lead to some terrible consequences (such as probable ghost plagues, as dead souls couldn't go anywhere), you could do the same thing by merging the Fade and the physical world into one. A Synthesis of Dragon Age, if you will.

Also, regulation is useful for mages, but the Chantry should have no part in it and the current Templar Order needs to be wiped out.

[blackflamerose]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why destroy magic? Not only would severing matter from spirit probably lead to some terrible consequences (such as probable ghost plagues, as dead souls couldn't go anywhere), you could do the same thing by merging the Fade and the physical world into one. A Synthesis of Dragon Age, if you will.

Also, regulation is useful for mages, but the Chantry should have no part in it and the current Templar Order needs to be wiped out.

Actually, this would be a situation where ME3's Synthesis option would actually WORK as a happy(ish) ending. Because, as it stands, both sides are determined to wipe the other out completely, templars due to their fanaticism, mages due to desperation to survive. The circumstances have shown that the current solution does not work, at all. In fact, it lead to war. One cannot call for the extermination or oppression of mages, if everyone's a mage. It would defang the Mage-Templar war in one fell swoop, would completely upend the status quo in Thedas, and has been foreshadowed one game previous (Sandal's monologue). No utopia here, and here's hoping DA3's protagonist doesn't have to die to see it happen.