272 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Hmm. I thought he and the templars were so fed up with the Divine wanting to reform things for the better treatment of mages, that at the time the mages were about to vote on independence, the templars started slaughtering them all, before the vote was even made.

Oh no, the templars came to imprision Rhys because there was compelling evidence he had been commiting the serial murders on the White Spire. There was no mention of stopping the conclave until the mages resisted despite the fact there were good reasons to believe Rhys was guilty and the templars were just doing their jobs and not trying to opress anyone.

Later, it was discovered it was Adrian, a Libertarian, who had murdered the most recent victim and planted the evidence against Rhys exactly to incite that type of response.

So, yes, maybe Lambert was prejudiced but mages like Adrian and Anders can be just as unreasonable as templars. 

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Lotion Sonar wrote...
Oh..I dunno..It could be because they are an unpredictable walking natural disaster waiting to happen?

It is predictable...before blood mages doing something awful, they cut their wrist...before any mages going insane, they have bad dreams, before any mages becomes an abomination, they panicked out of something then "you know nothing of magic!"- Thrask daughter for got her name

Wut?
No, it's not predictable. What you are saying is utter bollocks.
Not all mages have bad dreams (or talk about them if they do). And certanly becoming an abomination has no template.

And if mages were to live among normal people, how long would it take for a response to arrive in case one of them does go berserk? You'd need to have a squad of templars at every street conrner in every town and every village.
Completely and utterly impractical.
Even in our modern cities with helicpoters, fast police cars and priecints at every corner, police comes too often too late. A mage can become an abomination at the town square, kill several dozen poeple and flee before any templars arrive.
There can be no effective prevention OR contamination if mages run free. It just isn't physicly possible.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Quarantine is not imprisonment, or enslavement. Your logic is non-existent.[/quote]

ERm.... you talking to me about logic and then say something as stupid as this?



[quote]
[quote]Wether they want it or not is irrelevant. They are a danger. Period.[/quote]
Weapons are a danger, how come they aren't banned?
Everyone is a danger. We all possess the power to kill. We do not imprison people for what they might do.[/quote]

Weapons are banned depending on power.
You need a license to own a weapons. That's basic small-arms. Anything bigger is a no-no. No civilian can own a rocket launcher. Tanks , carpet bombs or other highly lether ones? Definately out.

A mage isn't a gun. A mage is a block-buster. And a block-baster that's part of you and cannto be taken away easily.


[quote]
Non-mages are also susceptible to demonic possession. Why are they not held to the same standards of responsibility? [/quote]

Because it takes extraordianary circumstances for that to happen and when it does, the resulting abomination is no where nearly as pwoerfull.
The rarity and far lower danger level do make all the difference.


[quote]
[quote]It CHOOSES to protect people from mages.[/quote]
You mean it fails spectacularly.[/quote]

I'd say it does it jobs. Abomination happen in the tower, where tehy are dealth with. no civilian casualites.


[quote]
[quote]It CHOOSES to protect mages from themselves.[/quote]
"The constant threat of rape means we care!" [/quote]

Because 1 case means it's a rule? You're full of garbage.
Here, I can link you several articels of police officers doing immoral stuff. Including rape. That means we must kill all the police officers and destroy the entire police force system, right?


[quote]
[quote]It CHOOSES to minimize the death toll, which would be a lot higher if mages roamed free.[/quote]
How is the death toll minimised? Prove that it would be higher if mages were free.[/quote]

Uncontroled enviroment.
Greater density of potential victims.
Slower response.

It's pure common sense.



[quote]
[quote]People distrust and frear mages because it's reasonable to do so. A 100% atheist can EASILY hate/fear mages.[/quote]
Where the hell does religion come into it? [/quote]

You're the one who brought it up, claiming the chantry is the reason people hate/fear mages.
Which is garbage.



[quote]
What evidence do you have to support any of the nonsense you've been spouting? At least I'm not making baseless, sweeping judgements about how a massive subset of humans are going to behave.[/quote]

Basic socilogy.
If you somehow think, despite all we saw to the contrary and basic logic, that the mages act any different from normal humans beings, then you are insane.


[quote]
The Circle system has existed for a millenium, that's established lore. It is inherently abusive, and that's a fact. Anyone who looks at it and doesn't see abuse is blind. The only way it could cease to be abusive is if the core principles on which it was founded were fundamentally changed and the Chantry was removed from power.[/quote]

It needs a few minor tweaks. That is all.
Enyone who would abolish the Circles and let the mages free is living a dream world, blinding by endless idealism and naivitee.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
*inane strawman bull*****

Mages are civilians. They are not soldiers. Their deaths are civilian deaths.

There is obviously way more than one instance of rape occurring across the circles of Thedas. That we have two known rapists in Kirkwall alone speaks extremely poorly of the system, and that's not even counting the faceless cronies of Alrik and Kerras. Even if we never saw any instance of rape, the staggering potential for abuse is obvious to everyone who isn't completely retarded. The system is flawed from the ground up.

I'm well aware that police officers and prison guards have abused their powers. I think there are some serious fundamental flaws with the law enforcement system as it currently stands in the real world, and yes, serious restructuring is required. But at least these issues are publicly acknowledged by the people in charge, and perpetrators are punished. Where is the acknowledgement of this issue in Thedas? Where is the punishment for Alrik and Kerras? Why does nobody notice or even care that these men have been abusing their powers and their charges for god knows how long? Why wasn't Alrik suspended when he started proposing tranquility for all mages?

I never said mages would act differently from normal humans. You said that when you said they'd go on crazed murderous rampages as soon as they got a breath of fresh air.

The Circle needs a complete overhaul in the way it operates. Getting it to an acceptable state would take years, and requires the complete removal of Chantry oversight, and a fundamental shift in the societal perception of mages.

I do not think the Circles should be abolished, and I never said the Circles should be abolished. You are literally just making **** up.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I know I'm a little late in the discussion, but here's my opinion. I don't think the Circle of Magi is a bad idea in principle. Nor is having Templars around in my opinion (Just not in charge of everything- maybe there to investigate crimes and Blood Magic, and to act as mentors and guides to mages aside from their teachers in the circle). But, like Plaintiff said, the Circle needs a major overhaul that could take years to complete.
Mages are humans and elves, and are civilians. In a way they are treated a lot like mutants are treated in the X-men series, maybe even worse.

There is certainly an abuse of power and many people in Thedas do not see how truly bad it is. But, there are some mages who are too dangerous to lead normal lives, just as their are ordinary people who are dangerous criminals. I do think what Anders did was wrong, and he should be punished in some way (death? I don't know.). Just as some Templars tried to be helpful and not unreasonable (Thrask).

Ideally, I think the Circle should be a place for mages to learn to control and manage this great responsibility, with emotional, educational, spiritual mentors every step of the way. (Or something other kind of mentor, if their not the believing sort.) But, it's a prison  as it is that both evil and good people alike are trapped in with their lives at the mercy of their watchers, and this is unacceptable. But in a way it is a striking reflection of how unfair the real world is, so maybe it is wishful thinking on my part that things can change for the better.:innocent:

Modifié par FenrirBlackDragon, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:47 .

[dragonflight288]

I know I'm a little late in the discussion, but here's my opinion. I
don't think the Circle of Magi is a bad idea in principle. Nor is having
Templars around in my opinion (Just not in charge of everything- maybe
there to investigate crimes and Blood Magic, and to act as mentors and
guides to mages aside from their teachers in the circle). But, like
Plaintiff said, the Circle needs a major overhaul that could take years
to complete.
Mages are humans and elves, and are civilians. In a way
they are treated a lot like mutants are treated in the X-men series,
maybe even worse.

There is certainly an abuse of power and many
people in Thedas do not see how truly bad it is. But, there are some
mages who are too dangerous to lead normal lives, just as their are
ordinary people who are dangerous criminals. I do think what Anders did
was wrong, and he should be punished in some way (death? I don't know.).
Just as some Templars tried to be helpful and not unreasonable
(Thrask).

Ideally, I think the Circle should be a place for
mages to learn to control and manage this great responsibility, with
emotional, educational, spiritual mentors every step of the way. (Or
something other kind of mentor, if their not the believing sort.) But,
it's a prison  as it is that both evil and good people alike are trapped
in with their lives at the mercy of their watchers, and this is
unacceptable. But in a way it is a striking reflection of how unfair the
real world is, so maybe it is wishful thinking on my part that things
can change for the better.

I wouldn't call it wishful thinking. But I can already predict how this argument is going to go, I've seen it done hundreds of times.

Pro-templar people will bring up that mages are dangerous simply for existing, so they need to be in the Circle as it is, but those templar supporters tend to ignore the issues of rape and beatings and illegal tranquilizations. It's unfortunate, but those issues get largely ignored in favor of ALL mages being kept from the populace. And when it's brought up that there are other cultures that exist outside the Qun and Chantry, who exist without Circles, they will ignore those points as well, or at least gloss over them as exceptions and get back to saying all mages need to be locked up when at this point in the time-line, according to the lore and novels, it's complete genocide or nothing. The templars in Thedas, not the forum, are calling for the destruction and death of every mage right now.

Then we have the pro-mage people. They will constantly bring up the templar's abuse of power and how the Circle needs to be reformed entirely so the Templars and the Chantry don't control everything, but then pro-templar people will say that we are advocating total mage freedom and liberation and shoot down all the arguments, saying not every templar is like that. They will then cite examples like Thrask, Gregoire, Bryant and Otto.

Pro-mage point out that the situation leads to templars abusing their powers as they will not be punished for it, and pro-templar point out that a mage criminal is far more dangerous than a mundane criminal, and even if the mage isn't a criminal, the danger of abominations alone justifies the need to lock up every single mage, to keep the larger population safe from demons.

Then they'll start dismissing each other as misreading their posts (which there will be) or taking their words out of context to support their own argument (which will also be done) and in the end, nothing gets accomplished, no one is convinced, well, scratch that, some people may be swayed by particularaly relevant points on one side or the other, and then we have 4-5 pages of the same people repeating arguments they made in the past.

So why do we keep doing it?

Because it's fun. :innocent:

[EricHVela]

There is no reasoning against fear.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
*inane strawman bull*****

Mages are civilians. They are not soldiers. Their deaths are civilian deaths.

Are they? Semantics aside, doesn't matter.

Less civlians die either way.

Better a 100 mages die in the  tower than 10000 poeple in the streets.

There is obviously way more than one instance of rape occurring across the circles of Thedas. That we have two known rapists in Kirkwall alone speaks extremely poorly of the system, and that's not even counting the faceless cronies of Alrik and Kerras. Even if we never saw any instance of rape, the staggering potential for abuse is obvious to everyone who isn't completely retarded. The system is flawed from the ground up.

Every system is prone to abuse, especially given this IS middle ages.
Even today, with our modern sensibilities, laws and WAY more advanced oversight, s*** still happens. A lot.
The two cases in Kirkwall (which is the worst of all circles) are nothing.

Do you really think abuse would stop if you let mages roam free? Yeah, right.

I'm well aware that police officers and prison guards have abused their powers. I think there are some serious fundamental flaws with the law enforcement system as it currently stands in the real world, and yes, serious restructuring is required.

No oversight is perfect. Period. No amount of restructuring will change that.

But at least these issues are publicly acknowledged by the people in charge, and perpetrators are punished.

Sometimes....

Where is the acknowledgement of this issue in Thedas? Where is the punishment for Alrik and Kerras? Why does nobody notice or even care that these men have been abusing their powers and their charges for god knows how long? Why wasn't Alrik suspended when he started proposing tranquility for all mages?

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
There is a tendency to solve thing internally in many organizations even today. Question is - did anyone know? Who knew? Was there any proof?
And why would he be suspended for suggesting that?

I never said mages would act differently from normal humans. You said that when you said they'd go on crazed murderous rampages as soon as they got a breath of fresh air.

I said they would act like normal humans, which is bad. Humans fall prey to temptation, lust for power and vice all too often. Mages falling to those is worse.
Free mages in large countries = bad news.

The Circle needs a complete overhaul in the way it operates. Getting it to an acceptable state would take years, and requires the complete removal of Chantry oversight, and a fundamental shift in the societal perception of mages.

Meh. Disagree.
Fundamental societal shift? Bollocks.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Too late doesn't meant not effective, that is why we have court, judges, paramedic, fire brigade ect...they all do their job.

Yes it does. the damage has been done.
If you only manage to stop an abomination AFTER it kills 100 people they you are failing. Badly.

Courts? Judges? You seem to think aike abominations and blood mages will come to a trial.....

Who know someone you meet on the street is actually a serial rapist? Or a wanted serial killer? Or whatever evil dude? You can't simply put all men in prison just because they maybe become a rapist, murderer or a sadist whatever evil dude.

If a group of people has super-powers and is prone to destruction despite their best intentions - yes, yes I can.

You know what, Templar vs Mage is like Femin.a.z.i vs Male Chauvinist

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And when it's brought up that there are other cultures that exist outside the Qun and Chantry, who exist without Circles, they will ignore those points as well, or at least gloss over them as exceptions and get back to saying all mages need to be locked up.

We do not gloss over or ignore it.
The examples of those cultures simply aren't applicable.

You still have today tribes in africa that live in the old ways. No modern technology, no real roof, hunters and gatherers.
Does that mean that society at large going back to that kind of life is viable? Or realistic? Nope it doesn't.

There have been nations in the past who accepted natural disasters as punishment from their gods and did nothing to protect themselves. When their families dies the'd jsut grit their teeth, accept that and move on. Is that viable and applicable for us? No.

Neither is the Dalish/Chasin/Rivan model (who are FAR from perfect mind you).

The Dalish can ram a hot poker up their ass each morning as part of their good morning ritual as far as I care.

[Face of Evil]

Both sides ARE wrong.

For they all should submit to the Qun.

[LobselVith8]

Both sides are ideologically opposed, and it's unlikely that either side will reach a consensus any more than the people who debate the merits and flaws of mage autonomy from the Chantry controlled Circles v. the Chantry controlled Circles and the Order of Templars. I don't think that means either side is necessarily wrong - it simply means they have different views on the best way to handle magic in Thedas. The fact that the games invite us to choose a side only tells me that we are meant to pick a side in this dichotomy.

Personally, I don't agree with the Chantry controlled Circles, but there are plenty who agree or disagree with that position. If Dragon Age III allows the protagonist to turn the tide in favor of one over the other, I think that would be a good thing. I would like to see a protagonist helping formulate a mage victory from the continental revolution that has taken place. Perhaps similar to how New Vegas allowed the Courier to help the NCR or the Legion across the Mojave.

[Samzo77]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Samzo77 wrote...
Yeah, Templars are only mean because mages are dangerous, but mages only
become threatening if Templars act mean. Which ones the chicken, which
ones the egg, and which came first.

Untrue.

Wasnt suggesting it was true, so much as a point of contention. And it was a paraphrase. The idea is that mages only rebel because the system is broken and they are the subject of abuse.

It doesn't have to be agreed with, but it is an argument I've heard people make.

[PizzaThe Hutt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

PizzaThe Hutt wrote...
There always has to be an alternative but nooo they were just too damned stubborn and demanded more from the other side than they should have and ended up arguing in circles before attacking each other.

Not necessarily. While there often is a better alternative, it doens't mean there is ALWAYS one.

There Is always a better alternative than killing mages or templars.  It's illogical to simply think that there were only two options in a problem that could always be solved with non-violence.  The only problem with that is that one side demands too much from the other while the other does the same thing nothing is properly solved like that.  Though that's just my opinion.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meh. Disagree.

Of course you disagree, you've already made it perfectly clear that you support the extremely abusive system that currently exists, that provokes mages into acting out by alienating them from the outside world and telling them that they are monsters.

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I wouldn't call it wishful thinking. But I can already predict how this argument is going to go, I've seen it done hundreds of times. 

*snip*

Wow, it's almost like you've never read any pro-templar argument these past few months.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:26 .

[Face of Evil]

Free mages can do no wrong. Any wrong committed by free mages is the result of poor writing.

[Reznore57]

The problem is human society is "almost" doing the best they can with mages.
I mean elves live in alienage , we saw refugee and orphan ending in place like Darktown .
Sure mages get abused , raped , just like kid elves got murdered and no one cares because the killer was from nobility.
Or in DA:O you met a woman who ran from Orlais because a chevalier tried to rape her and there's nothing she could do , well at least she could run...
I'm not saying it's ok , but a lot of people can't demand any form of justice because of their social position.(and they live in less fancy place than mages)
Will the mages act any different if they were in power ?History in Thedas seems to prove they act just the same sometimes on even bigger scale (tevinter)

Now with mages being the one abused for so long , maybe they would be more fair ...who knows?

I don't think the real problem is magic , the problem is power.
I don't blame mages for being sick of being so poorly treated sometimes.
But i don't blame templars for being scared.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Samzo77 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Samzo77 wrote...
Yeah, Templars are only mean because mages are dangerous, but mages only
become threatening if Templars act mean. Which ones the chicken, which
ones the egg, and which came first.

Untrue.

Wasnt suggesting it was true, so much as a point of contention. And it was a paraphrase. The idea is that mages only rebel because the system is broken and they are the subject of abuse.

It doesn't have to be agreed with, but it is an argument I've heard people make.

It's silly argument. Mages have been causing death and distruction since forever.

PizzaTheHutt
There Is always a better alternative than killing mages or
templars.  It's illogical to simply think that there were only two
options in a problem that could always be solved with non-violence.  The
only problem with that is that one side demands too much from the other
while the other does the same thing nothing is properly solved like
that.  Though that's just my opinion.

No, there isn't.
Life isn't that formulaic. Sometimes you have dozens of good options. Sometimes you really have none. There is ALWAYS a better way is wishfull thinking. It's all situation-dependant.
And while you often might have options, that doesn't mean at all that all of those options are viable.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meh. Disagree.

Of course you disagree, you've already made it perfectly clear that you support the extremely abusive system that currently exists, that provokes mages into acting out by alienating them from the outside world and telling them that they are monsters.

And you made it perfectly clear you're handwaving the danger and all practical considerations away.

You demand a perfect system, out of scope of the time and setting.

[dragonflight288]

Oh no, the templars came to imprision Rhys because there was compelling evidence he had been commiting the serial murders on the White Spire. There was no mention of stopping the conclave until the mages resisted despite the fact there were good reasons to believe Rhys was guilty and the templars were just doing their jobs and not trying to opress anyone.

Later, it was discovered it was Adrian, a Libertarian, who had murdered the most recent victim and planted the evidence against Rhys exactly to incite that type of response.

So, yes, maybe Lambert was prejudiced but mages like Adrian and Anders can be just as unreasonable as templars.

Fair point, and an obvious one. Each group is filled with individuals.

But real life has shown that the social problems are largely solved with general education and tolerance. Crime and abuse of power will never go away for any side.

I just personally can't support any form of system that allows power abuse to go on and one without any form of inquiry or punishment. Templars can be good or bad, but the bad ones simply aren't held accountable for any wrong they do while mages who do no wrong are held accountable for all the crimes of the individuals of their group.

It's a double standard and it's wrong.

Following Meredith's logic at the end of DA2, we can just as easily call a Right of Annulment on the templars for the actions of Alrik and Kerras alone. If the entire circle can be blamed for Anders, then so too can the entire Templar order be blamed for Alrik. Irregardless of those who are completely not related to the crime (Kerran and Thrask being examples).

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
But real life has shown that the social problems are largely solved with general education and tolerance. Crime and abuse of power will never go away for any side.

Exactly. A mage-run circle wouldn't be any "fairer" in the grand scheme of things.

I just personally can't support any form of system that allows power abuse to go on and one without any form of inquiry or punishment. Templars can be good or bad, but the bad ones simply aren't held accountable for any wrong they do while mages who do no wrong are held accountable for all the crimes of the individuals of their group.

Well, we know there are loopholes and abuse can happen - that is given. That doesn't mean that abuse is fostered and that there isn't any kind of inquiry/punishment. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You seem to be forgeting that Thedas is middle-ages. There is no CSI. Crimes and abuses are not easy to prove.
And the mentality and resources are such that the modern idea of oversigh, trial and control just doesn't work.

Following Meredith's logic at the end of DA2, we can just as easily call a Right of Annulment on the templars for the actions of Alrik and Kerras alone. If the entire circle can be blamed for Anders, then so too can the entire Templar order be blamed for Alrik. Irregardless of those who are completely not related to the crime (Kerran and Thrask being examples).

Two things:
1) Mages really were getting out of control.
2) Meredith was a lunatic. There's no point in following her broken logic. She was driven insane and given total power. Not a good combo.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:55 .

[Lazy Jer]

Face of Evil wrote...

Both sides ARE wrong.

For they all should submit to the Qun.

But...since the Qun itself is wrong wouldn't that just make everyone twice as wrong?