272 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Face of Evil wrote...

Free mages can do no wrong. Any wrong committed by free mages is the result of poor writing.

There was poor writing in Dragon Age II when it came to depicting templars and mages as three-dimensional characters. Decimus shouldn't think a moiety crew consisting of a Dalish elf, a Tevinter elf with lyrium tattoos, and a dwarf are templars; Grace wanting revenge for helping her is silly; Orsino and Meredith losing their minds so we can fight monsters simply diminishes the complexity and difficulty that this debate consists of in examining whether the Chantry and the templars or the mages who seek autonomy are correct.

Reaching a consensus on this issue between pro-mage and pro-templar people is impossible, however. People feel strongly for either side, which is why Dragon Age III runs into tricky territory if the developers mishandle this schism, or the possible choices involved in the inevitable Mage-Templar War. It can easily backfire.

[dragonflight288]

Well, we know there are loopholes and abuse can happen - that is given. That doesn't mean that abuse is fostered and that there isn't any kind of inquiry/punishment. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You seem to be forgeting that Thedas is middle-ages. There is no CSI. Crimes and abuses are not easy to prove.
And the mentality and resources are such that the modern idea of oversigh, trial and control just doesn't work.

And yet the Chantry has laws and the templars take vows. If they break those vows, there should be consequences. If the law is broken, it is the duty of those in charge, like the Knight-Commander or the Grand Cleric, to investigate to the best of their ability. We don't see them investigating, but we do see Meredith going to extreme lengths to connect mages as the problem, irregardless of how they're treated.

Two things:
1) Mages really were getting out of control.
2) Meredith was a lunatic. There's no point in following her broken logic. She was driven insane and given total power. Not a good combo.

Two things back at you.

1. The templars had death squads killing non-mages in broad daylight.
2. The templars under her command, like Kerras, were EAGER to kill all the mages. Lambert in Asunder wants all the mages dead and refuses to negotiate with the Divine on allowing mages a few more freedoms. Cullen in the mage origin, back in Ferelden, speaks of templars who discuss murdering apprentices who fail their harrowing with glee.

It's not just Meredith, and the templars are just as out of control as the mages were driven to being.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well, we know there are loopholes and abuse can happen - that is given. That doesn't mean that abuse is fostered and that there isn't any kind of inquiry/punishment. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You seem to be forgeting that Thedas is middle-ages. There is no CSI. Crimes and abuses are not easy to prove.
And the mentality and resources are such that the modern idea of oversigh, trial and control just doesn't work.

And yet the Chantry has laws and the templars take vows. If they break those vows, there should be consequences. If the law is broken, it is the duty of those in charge, like the Knight-Commander or the Grand Cleric, to investigate to the best of their ability. We don't see them investigating, but we do see Meredith going to extreme lengths to connect mages as the problem, irregardless of how they're treated.

I'm sure it will be very interesting for the player to spend the game watching templars doing an investiagtion...

1. The templars had death squads killing non-mages in broad daylight.

Dont' recall that. But doesn't matter. There are bad apples everywhere - especially in Kirkwall.
Again - this is the middle ages. Everyones life is somewhat crappy and there's danger and bad people everywhere.

You got bandits rainign from the sky. A few nutty templars are hardly shocking.

2. The templars under her command, like Kerras, were EAGER to kill all the mages. Lambert in Asunder wants all the mages dead and refuses to negotiate with the Divine on allowing mages a few more freedoms. Cullen in the mage origin, back in Ferelden, speaks of templars who discuss murdering apprentices who fail their harrowing with glee.

As I said again - bad apples. And if you talk to soldiers in any army, you'll find them pretty eager to kill. Nothing strange, especially in stresfull situations.

Didn't read Asunder and don't really care to.

[dragonflight288]

Dont' recall that. But doesn't matter. There are bad apples everywhere - especially in Kirkwall.
Again - this is the middle ages. Everyones life is somewhat crappy and there's danger and bad people everywhere.

You got bandits rainign from the sky. A few nutty templars are hardly shocking.

Bandits can be expected to be murderers and law breakers. A templar's role is to defend, both the world from the mages as well as mages from the world. If you side with Orsino in the debate at the beginning of Act 3, you can get a side quest to gather support to remove Meredith, not the templars, not the Chantry, but Meredith from power, this one run by the nobles of Kirkwall and not the templar Thrask.

During that quest, we see the templars about to kill a woman in cold blood. She is not a mage, has committed no crimes, and admits that all she did was give her cousin, who was a mage, some food and a place to sleep for the night. Apparantly that act of kindness for a family member is worthy of death without a trial or evidence to the templar death squad. You may not remember it, but it's right there in the game.

As I said again - bad apples. And if you talk to soldiers in any army, you'll find them pretty eager to kill. Nothing strange, especially in stresfull situations.

Didn't read Asunder and don't really care to.

But unlike real armies where bad apples can be court martialed and strictly punished, the templars don't do that, or at least they don't do it to people who are guilty from what we've seen in the game.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I've got it! We let the darkspawn win!

Problem solved!

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
But unlike real armies where bad apples can be court martialed and strictly punished, the templars don't do that, or at least they don't do it to people who are guilty from what we've seen in the game.

If this is true, then it is something the Templar Order can work on.

However, equality between mages and mundanes is completely impossible because they are not born the same. Either mundanes control mages because they are useful or the mages gain freedom and create a new Tevinter Imperium.

[Urazz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...
So how come people fear mages by thinking they are dangerous and need to be put down and lock up or being made tranquil? It is because of Chantry propaganda and act from extremists from both side.

Oh..I dunno..It could be because they are an unpredictable walking natural disaster waiting to happen?

They are only an unpredictable walking natural disaster waiting to happen when they aren't trained.  Ensure mages get trainining so they can control their powers and they'll actually be able to be a positive influence in general if you let them.

Of course there are bad mages that use their power seflishly but then you can't say that is a mage only thing.  Regular people can abuse any power they get as well and are able to kill just as many people if given the opportunity and can convince people it was for a good cause.  Mages are just able do some of this stuff more easily due to magic.

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But unlike real armies where bad apples can be court martialed and strictly punished, the templars don't do that, or at least they don't do it to people who are guilty from what we've seen in the game.

If this is true, then it is something the Templar Order can work on.

However, equality between mages and mundanes is completely impossible because they are not born the same. Either mundanes control mages because they are useful or the mages gain freedom and create a new Tevinter Imperium.

That's only your opinion.  It's certainly possible to find a happy medium between regular people and mages.  The vast majority of mages are normal people with magic. 

I think the best way to ensure balance is don't let mages get into positions of leadership but let them live free after they finish their training at the Circle (which would serve more as a school now).  Have Templar around as a special police task force to go after bad mages but mages would help them in this duty as well.  Templar would be answerable to the crown or the leadership of each kingdom instead of the Chantry.

Modifié par Urazz, 09 juillet 2012 - 02:34 .

[dragonflight288]

If this is true, then it is something the Templar Order can work on.

However, equality between mages and mundanes is completely impossible because they are not born the same. Either mundanes control mages because they are useful or the mages gain freedom and create a new Tevinter Imperium.

That's only your opinion. It's certainly possible to find a happy medium between regular people and mages. The vast majority of mages are normal people with magic.

I think the best way to ensure balance is don't let mages get into positions of leadership but let them live free after they finish their training at the Circle (which would serve more as a school now). Have Templar around as a special police task force to go after bad mages but mages would help them in this duty as well. Templar would be answerable to the crown or the leadership of each kingdom instead of the Chantry.

Or at the very least allow mages to fall in love without fear of their partner being made tranquil and turned into the sexual slave of a templar (that elf and his lover in DA2,) allowed to marry without special permission, be free to live outside, and have children without the Chantry taking them away, calling them property of the Chantry (Wynne's son.)

[MisterJB]

Tevinter was created by normal people with magic.
The hard truth is that elites tend to opress the less fortunate. This applies to both mundanes and mages. Unfortunately, mages will forever be elites, even more than a noble or a king, because they actually contain untold levels of destruction within their bodies.

[dragonflight288]

Tevinter was created by normal people with magic.
The hard truth is that elites tend to opress the less fortunate. This applies to both mundanes and mages. Unfortunately, mages will forever be elites, even more than a noble or a king, because they actually contain untold levels of destruction within their bodies.

And professional sports players may be considered elites. A star basketball player is certainly faster than me. Most likely taller than me. Most certainly wealthier than me. But in the end, is no better than me.

I realize this analogy may be flawed, but you cannot call someone an elite based on their natural talents or physical (or magical) capabilities they were born with. It's a natural advantage, pure and simple. But outside Tevinter, mages cannot be called elites at all. They are oppressed, persecuted, hated, blamed for a bad crop or someone's cow dying (Wynne mentions this when talking about templars and coming to the Circle. How some potential apprentices never make it there because the mob blames the bad crop, the illness, or the dead cow on the child who is discovered to be a mage, and kill the kid.)

Heck, even Ser Perth in Redcliff would rather have a useless trinket with a chantry symbol on it than any magical item that would actually help him. Calling it unholy.

Heck, even Ser Bryant in Lothering says that he uses powers blessed by the maker to battle cursed magic.

Mages are hardly seen in a positive light, and most simply want to live in peace. You can't call that an elite.

[MisterJB]

I do think there is a ridiculously negative view of magic in Andrastian culture that could afford some change.

However, having a natural advantage will, inevitably, lead to mages attempting to place themselves above mundanes. It has happened before and will again.
Right now, they demand an end to the opression. Should they be given freedom; which I don't believe will ever happen, both because people fear them and because mages are the nuclear power of Andrastian Thedas; they will want more, they will want power.
It's in the nature of Man; and Elf, and Dwarf; to be greedy. I don't particularly begrudge the mages because I know that, in their place, we, mundanes, would do the very same thing. But, of course, we must safeguard ourselves.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:23 .

[Blacklash93]

I can appretiate what the Templars are trying to do, but no big situations in DA have warranted siding with them imo. The final chioce in DA2 and the Circle questline in Origins, namely. Plus many of them are rather prejudiced against mages in ways that go beyond acknoledging the fact that they're dangerous. That power over them combined with the hatred and fear can lead to abusive situations and obviously has and will continue to under the Circle.

I sympathize with the mages and the rights that they should ideally have, but but they're rather prone to corruption, demonic posession, and insanity. Giving them complete freedom would most likely be a disaster.

In that sense the OP has a point, but saying each side is completely wrong is going too far with it. But as a whole I believe one side completely getting its way is going to end badly in the long-run. Templars win? Mages are confined and oppressed and eventually rebel again. Mages win? Many join and greatly strengthen Tevinter or make a new nation in its likeness calling for the Circle to be restablished. This could easily turn into a cycle of oppression and rebellion for both mages and non-mages.

However I know Justinia is looking for reform so I'm with her. Team Chantry FTW! A new system to replace the Circle that compromises the two sides sounds promising.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:27 .

[thats1evildude]

Nizaris1 wrote...

templars are men too..and Templars can be greedy too...and they have desire and pride...that is why they also can be possessed.

But they're not open conduits to the Fade. Any mage, by virtue of his/her power, can become an abomination at any time. It only takes one moment of weakness or desperation. A templar cannot be possessed unless the Fade is torn or a blood mage forcibly places a demon inside him.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:28 .

[dragonflight288]

But they're not open conduits to the Fade. Any mage, by virtue of his/her power, can become an abomination at any time. It only takes one moment of weakness or desperation. A templar cannot be possessed unless the Fade is torn or a blood mage forcibly places a demon inside him.

The bolded part is false. Gaider himself said that in order to become an abomination, what must happen is that the mage is forcibly taken while they are in the Fade, or they must make a deal with a demon and let them in, such is the case with Connor.

The only time, the only time, given in the game and lore that proves a mage is capable of becoming an abomination at any time, is the case of Fenriel the somniari. A dreamer is a different kind of mage entirely, so they are the exception to that rule.

Unless a mage goes directly into the Fade, they are in no more danger of possession than the templars. When a demon is in the real world, whether summoned by magic or willingly crossed where the veil is torn, anyone and anything is literally fair game. Templars, peasants, mages, trees, dead corpses, animals...

[CELL55]

The writers have been pretty open about this. I believe Mr. Gaider said something like, "The real enemy is the circumstances" or some such. As the game continues, the reasonable people on both sides get killed off until the radicals far outnumber the sane. It struck me as Lawful Evil (Templars) versus Chaotic Evil (Mages). Whoever wins, we lose.
Personally I didn't care to make such a choice, as it comes down to 'who do I hate the least?'. Without any real motivation to fight FOR someone, I just get all apathetic, and I don't think apathy was the emotion the writers were trying to provoke.

[dragonflight288]

The writers have been pretty open about this. I believe Mr. Gaider said something like, "The real enemy is the circumstances" or some such. As the game continues, the reasonable people on both sides get killed off until the radicals far outnumber the sane. It struck me as Lawful Evil (Templars) versus Chaotic Evil (Mages). Whoever wins, we lose.
Personally I didn't care to make such a choice, as it comes down to 'who do I hate the least?'. Without any real motivation to fight FOR someone, I just get all apathetic, and I don't think apathy was the emotion the writers were trying to provoke.

Probably not, but could be worse. It could be raining. lol.

You do make a good point that the decent people are being killed off by the radicals so both sides have more radicals to look at than decent people.

[MisterJB]

We really shouyld just take Kirkwall and push it somewhere else.
Maybe a gigantic rift in the Veil was appealing in the time of the Magists but now, it's just asking for trouble´.

[thats1evildude]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The bolded part is false. Gaider himself said that in order to become an abomination, what must happen is that the mage is forcibly taken while they are in the Fade, or they must make a deal with a demon and let them in, such is the case with Connor.

And mages can let a demon at any time. My point stands.

CELL55 wrote...

The writers have been pretty open about this. I believe Mr. Gaider said something like, "The real enemy is the circumstances" or some such.

There are inherent flaws in the system. If there were no demons and no blood magic, then mages would not need to be so tightly controlled.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:41 .

[dragonflight288]

And mages can let a demon at any time. My point stands.

And so can any templar, should they meet a demon in the world. So can any army that fights another army, as a great amount of violence weakens the veil by itself. Take the Brecilian Forest. It was the sight of battles, so the veil is weak, demons possessed the trees and created sylvans. Werewolves are created when a great wolf is possessed (but the case of witherfang was a forcible possession)

Your point, as it was typed out and how I interpreted it at least, was that mages are dangerous 24/7, that they could sneeze and turn into an abomination. They have to consciously enter the fade, lose a battle of wills there, or make a deal. If a templar is forcibly dragged into the Fade, he is in just as much danger as the mage during their harrowing. And we have several examples where mages and non-mages alike are dragged in. The sloth demon in the tower, the Awakened Darkspawn in Blackmarsh, both dragged everyone into the fade.

If that wasn't the point your making, then I simply misinterpreted, but if it was, then it is factually incorrect.

[MisterJB]

Possessed mundanes are nowhere near as dangerous as an Abomination.

[thats1evildude]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And so can any templar, should they meet a demon in the world. So can any army that fights another army, as a great amount of violence weakens the veil by itself. Take the Brecilian Forest. It was the sight of battles, so the veil is weak, demons possessed the trees and created sylvans. Werewolves are created when a great wolf is possessed (but the case of witherfang was a forcible possession)

But the weakening of the Veil does not occur instantly, and nor does every act of violence weaken it. There are battlegrounds where the Veil is thin, yes, but people are generally smart enough to stay away from them. (Kirkwall is something of a special case because the Veil was sundered in secret.)

At any time and in any location within the world, a mage can be possessed and become an abomination.

[dragonflight288]

But the weakening of the Veil does not occur instantly, and nor does every act of violence weaken it. There are battlegrounds where the Veil is thin, yes, but people are generally smart enough to stay away from them. (Kirkwall is something of a special case because the Veil was sundered in secret.)

At any time and in any location within the world, a mage can be possessed and become an abomination.

Simply not true. Now, before you dismiss this, hear me out.

I'm not saying mages aren't in danger of becoming abominations. They are. I'm not saying templars are at an equal risk of being possessed. They're not. Mages are far more likely. Now I will make my arguments here based on what Gaider said in the past, and in-game events, lore, and codex entries.

To begin, let's go into the very realm of the Fade. The Fade is the realm of dreams. It is described this by Wynne in Ostagar. It's described this way in the codex. Every race, every gender, save for the dwarves, go there every night in their sleep. Every single person that isn't a dwarf. In the mage origin, Sloth comments on it. He calls the others dreamers. What makes a mage different, and this is the only thing that does, is the capacity to enter the Fade completely conscious.

Now this is important. Templars go to the Fade every night when they dream. Farmers go to the Fade every night when they dream. Mages go to the Fade every night when they dream.

But a somniari, or a dreamer, like Fenriel is unique in their ability to enter the Fade completely conscious without the aid of blood or lyrium. Even standard mages need either of those sources of power to enter the Fade. And even then, it isn't physically. The ancient Tevinter Magisters are the ones who did that, and that didn't turn out well for them. When a somniari has a bad dream, he/she is in very real danger of the demons in the Fade. But as a general rule, they are exceptions to it.

Now then, since the codex on spirits and demons discusses and elaborates that demons and spirits gained a desire to experience the mortal world by viewing or shaping the dreams of mortals, it stands to reason that every single non-dwarf is in just as much danger as the mages are of possession when they dream. After all, everyone goes there when they sleep.

But in the lore, we don't have any examples beyond the somniari of mages or people being possessed in their sleep. There just simply isn't any beyond Fenriel and his exceptional circumstances.

So that brings me to my next point. If a mage is in danger of being possessed in their sleep, so too is the king, the queen, the priest, the templar, and the farmer. Why not lock all them up as well? The answer is simple. Because they can't be possessed as easily as the mages.

The reason? The mages capacity to enter the fade completely conscious and aware. That makes them far more appetizing to the demons.

Now Gaider has said in the past, that in order to become an abomination, a mage must lose a battle of wills against a demon in the Fade, much like the battle with the demon during the Harrowing, OR they must make a deal and let the demon in. No other way. So the mage must consciously make the deal while in the fade, or they must lose the battle while in the Fade. The only other way is if the demon is already outside the Fade and a danger to literally everything around it.

A mage simply cannot sneeze and POOF, become an abomination. A mage simply cannot get angry and suddenly become large and ugly...unless he already was large and ugly to begin with.

Mages can summon spirits and demons. Mages can go into the Fade and commune with them. But the average mage is not in any more danger than the average templar.

Now if a mage is undergoing research that requires drawing on the fade repeatedly, delving into it, or summoning anything, it is a VERY good idea to be watched in case things get out of hand. But not when the mage is conjuring a fireball or healing someone.

There, a basic rundown of why mages are in more danger than everyone else, but also why they're less dangerous than the Chantry claims. Using only lore, codexes, and Gaider's words to form the argument.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:11 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Mages can summon spirits and demons. Mages can go into the Fade and commune with them. But the average mage is not in any more danger than the average templar.

Uumm... given that a mage is hounded by demons, I'd say he is.

Demons for the most part don't even notice regular humans. Mages are like becaons to them. So no, even a Templar stuck in a Fade wouldnt' be at the same danger.

And when mages cast magic, they draw from the Fade. They have at that point a connection.
Theoreticly, a demon could posses them then too, altough it's not as likely.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urazz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...
So how come people fear mages by thinking they are dangerous and need to be put down and lock up or being made tranquil? It is because of Chantry propaganda and act from extremists from both side.

Oh..I dunno..It could be because they are an unpredictable walking natural disaster waiting to happen?

They are only an unpredictable walking natural disaster waiting to happen when they aren't trained.  Ensure mages get trainining so they can control their powers and they'll actually be able to be a positive influence in general if you let them.

No, training has nothing to do with it.
What? You think Uldred didn't have training?

Possesion isn't about training. You cannot "train" resistance to demons in any practical way.

That's only your opinion.  It's certainly possible to find a happy medium between regular people and mages.  The vast majority of mages are normal people with magic.

Then they are not normal poeple by definition.