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Mages VS. Templars: Both sides are wrong


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#76
Lotion Soronarr

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dragonflight288 wrote...
Or at the very least allow mages to fall in love without fear of their partner being made tranquil and turned into the sexual slave of a templar (that elf and his lover in DA2,) allowed to marry without special permission, be free to live outside, and have children without the Chantry taking them away, calling them property of the Chantry (Wynne's son.)


Not possible. No one can guarantee that your partner wouldn't be made tranquil anymroe than can guarnatee your partner will NEVER become an abomination.
You might as well ask to be rid of fear of death - it's equally feasable.

#77
Fallstar

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thats1evildude wrote...

At any time and in any location within the world, a mage can be possessed and become an abomination.


At any point in time, at any place in the world, a man with a sword could decide to start killing people. But the man with the sword (normally) wouldn't do this. Why? Because it's a terrible thing to do, and he has at least a basic intellect that allows him to understand the consequences were he to do that.

At any point in time, at any place in the world, a mage could decide to let a demon possess him and become an abomination. But the mage (normally) wouldn't do this. Why? Because it's a terrible thing to do, and he has at least a basic intellect that allows him to understand the consequences were he to do that.

Not sure how much simpler I can make it. Mages are perfectly capable of resisting the lures of demons. That's (supposedly) the whole point of putting mages through the Harrowing. Those who pass have the mental fortitude to resist demons in the vast majority of cases. If that is not the case and you think passing the Harrowing doesn't do anything, then such a barbaric practice should be immediately stopped and a new test should be devised.

Mages who do turn into abominations understand the consequences of their actions. They have spent years studying and understand that once the demon is across the veil, that's it and they won't be able to control it. Bear in mind that becoming an abomination is a terrible thing to happen to the mage. Their minds are 'pushed aside' by the demon and they are forced to witness what it does, never mind the tortures a demon could inflict on the mage's mind. It is not a decision taken likely. When mages are backed into a corner, when they have had so many of their freedoms taken away from them that they are essentially prisoners for being born, when they are abused, when their lives mean so little they can be sentenced to death for a crime committed by a man who has no relation to them. That's when they consider becoming an abomination. When the circle and the templars have finished doing what they do best.

#78
Lotion Soronarr

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DuskWarden wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

At any time and in any location within the world, a mage can be possessed and become an abomination.


At any point in time, at any place in the world, a man with a sword could decide to start killing people. But the man with the sword (normally) wouldn't do this. Why? Because it's a terrible thing to do, and he has at least a basic intellect that allows him to understand the consequences were he to do that.

At any point in time, at any place in the world, a mage could decide to let a demon possess him and become an abomination. But the mage (normally) wouldn't do this. Why? Because it's a terrible thing to do, and he has at least a basic intellect that allows him to understand the consequences were he to do that.


a) you can take the sword away from the man
B) you can easily stop the man
c) the man with the sword  won't kill against his will. A mage can.
d) magic is far more than a "sword" or simple weapon. A mage is more like a man with a built-in bazooka and mind-control.


Tell you what - I'm going to visibly strap 10 kilos of C4 on me and walk on the streets.
Will you be confident and trusting of me? That I'll never snap? Never get drunk or drugged? Never falter in my moment of weakness (and ther will be plenty)?


Mages who do turn into abominations understand the consequences of their actions.


All assuming they tunr of hteir own free will and not by force.
And all assuming they aren't tricked.

#79
Gibb_Shepard

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Plaintiff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
I just know that in this situation, like the mooninites say, "The innocent will suffer. Big time."

There are no innocents in Thedas. If a society can't function without hating, imprisoning and enslaving its own friends and family members, then it doesn't deserve to exist.


That's a nice ideal. But situations often aren't so black and white as you make them out to be. Mages don't deserve what they deal with, but just one insane or malicious mage can do 100x the damage one insane man without magic can do. Thedas was under pressure, and sought the solution that would prevent this from hapenning. Extreme? Yes, very much so. But necessary for the very survival of Thedas, lest it become the Tevinter Imperium or a hole in the ground. The solution was never perfect, but it did it's job.

#80
CrimsonZephyr

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
I just know that in this situation, like the mooninites say, "The innocent will suffer. Big time."

There are no innocents in Thedas. If a society can't function without hating, imprisoning and enslaving its own friends and family members, then it doesn't deserve to exist.


That's a nice ideal. But situations often aren't so black and white as you make them out to be. Mages don't deserve what they deal with, but just one insane or malicious mage can do 100x the damage one insane man without magic can do. Thedas was under pressure, and sought the solution that would prevent this from hapenning. Extreme? Yes, very much so. But necessary for the very survival of Thedas, lest it become the Tevinter Imperium or a hole in the ground. The solution was never perfect, but it did it's job.


See the rebellion, where mages everywhere are up in arms about abuses? It didn't do its job.

#81
LobselVith8

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

See the rebellion, where mages everywhere are up in arms about abuses? It didn't do it's job.


A continental revolution against an oppressive system that some see as slavery, from the historical Aldenon the Great to a pro-mage Hawke. I also recall the situation in Kirkwall, where the Knight-Commander invoked the Right of Annulment because she wanted to appease the people; she was willing to kill hundreds of men, women, and children for an act they weren't responsible for because "the people will demand blood." Killing an entire population simply to appease a hypothetical mob, and I see just how dangerous the Chantry and its templars can be.

While it's true that magic is dangerous and mages can be possessed, I don't think an anti-mage religious organization that preaches that mages are "cursed" and gives templars domination over mages by "divine right" is the correct solution.

#82
Gibb_Shepard

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
I just know that in this situation, like the mooninites say, "The innocent will suffer. Big time."

There are no innocents in Thedas. If a society can't function without hating, imprisoning and enslaving its own friends and family members, then it doesn't deserve to exist.


That's a nice ideal. But situations often aren't so black and white as you make them out to be. Mages don't deserve what they deal with, but just one insane or malicious mage can do 100x the damage one insane man without magic can do. Thedas was under pressure, and sought the solution that would prevent this from hapenning. Extreme? Yes, very much so. But necessary for the very survival of Thedas, lest it become the Tevinter Imperium or a hole in the ground. The solution was never perfect, but it did it's job.


See the rebellion, where mages everywhere are up in arms about abuses? It didn't do its job.


After how many thousands of years? Yeah, it did. 

#83
CrimsonZephyr

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
I just know that in this situation, like the mooninites say, "The innocent will suffer. Big time."

There are no innocents in Thedas. If a society can't function without hating, imprisoning and enslaving its own friends and family members, then it doesn't deserve to exist.


That's a nice ideal. But situations often aren't so black and white as you make them out to be. Mages don't deserve what they deal with, but just one insane or malicious mage can do 100x the damage one insane man without magic can do. Thedas was under pressure, and sought the solution that would prevent this from hapenning. Extreme? Yes, very much so. But necessary for the very survival of Thedas, lest it become the Tevinter Imperium or a hole in the ground. The solution was never perfect, but it did it's job.


See the rebellion, where mages everywhere are up in arms about abuses? It didn't do its job.


After how many thousands of years? Yeah, it did. 


With 17 separate Annulments performed before then? That's a separate mage rebellion roughly every 58 years for 1000 years. We don't know how each of them started, but when, somewhere, mages are being exterminated every half a century, it isn't really doing its job. Yeah, you could say that the majority is being protected, but does that really mean the minority deserves to be treated in such a dehumanizing way?

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 10 juillet 2012 - 02:42 .


#84
Gibb_Shepard

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You should re read my posts. I said in my very first posts that no mages deserve what they get.. I also said in my first post that the solution wasn't near perfect. But control was necessary, as the prospect of free mages would result in chaos or Mage rule.

Please, if you're going to argue with me, don't argue with me under the presupposition that I think the chantry is the best thing ever and their solution was the absolute best for all parties.

#85
thats1evildude

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DuskWarden wrote...

At any point in time, at any place in the world, a man with a sword could decide to start killing people. But the man with the sword (normally) wouldn't do this. Why? Because it's a terrible thing to do, and he has at least a basic intellect that allows him to understand the consequences were he to do that.


The damage that a single man with a sword can do is minimal. Abominations have flattened villages and could threaten the entire world.

Obviously, most mages recognize that being possessed is a pretty ****ty deal. But it only took one naive child agreeing to a deal for the people of Redcliffe to be threatened by a horde of undead. It only took one power-hungry fool dabbling in dark magic to cause the catastrophe at the Circle tower in Ferelden.

DuskWarden wrote...

When mages are backed into a corner, when they have had so many of their freedoms taken away from them that they are essentially prisoners for being born, when they are abused, when their lives mean so little they can be sentenced to death for a crime committed by a man who has no relation to them. That's when they consider becoming an abomination. When the circle and the templars have finished doing what they do best.


Connor was not threatened by templars.

#86
CrimsonZephyr

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thats1evildude wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

At any point in time, at any place in the world, a man with a sword could decide to start killing people. But the man with the sword (normally) wouldn't do this. Why? Because it's a terrible thing to do, and he has at least a basic intellect that allows him to understand the consequences were he to do that.


The damage that a single man with a sword can do is minimal. Abominations have flattened villages and could threaten the entire world.

Obviously, most mages recognize that being possessed is a pretty ****ty deal. But it only took one naive child agreeing to a deal for the people of Redcliffe to be threatened by a horde of undead. It only took one power-hungry fool dabbling in dark magic to cause the catastrophe at the Circle tower in Ferelden.

DuskWarden wrote...

When mages are backed into a corner, when they have had so many of their freedoms taken away from them that they are essentially prisoners for being born, when they are abused, when their lives mean so little they can be sentenced to death for a crime committed by a man who has no relation to them. That's when they consider becoming an abomination. When the circle and the templars have finished doing what they do best.


Connor was not threatened by templars.


If Connor had access to a trained mage as a tutor, this may not have happened. The boy was being taught by an idiot, Jowan, for god's sake. Of course he had a massive ****-up -- he was taught by a man who did nothing but that his entire life. And if the price for having an open mage in the family (the shame, the loss of an heir, the revocation of titles, and the disinheritment) was not so high and non-negotiable, Isolde, as a caring mother, may not have been driven to seek out such a poor tutor.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

You should re read my posts. I said
in my very first posts that no mages deserve what they get.. I also said
in my first post that the solution wasn't near perfect. But control was
necessary, as the prospect of free mages would result in chaos or Mage
rule.

Please, if you're going to argue with me, don't argue with
me under the presupposition that I think the chantry is the best thing
ever and their solution was the absolute best for all parties.


Control, but to what degree. Sapient beings can only be controlled so much. Giving them food, clothes, and a roof over their head isn't really enough. Chattel slaves in the American South had that -- it didn't make their lives any less miserable. If it did, the United States wouldn't have had to create federal domestic policy entirely around addressing escaped slaves. Eventually, they will want more out of life and if enough of them want it, the status quo simply isn't feasible.

My point was that it was not "a thousand years of peace and tranquility" and then a rebellion because of those nasty uppity mages. My point was that, at any time in history, there could have been mages who would live to see their Circle eradicated. So, no, they lived in a constant state of fear and resistance. This is downplayed in the Codex because it is mostly written by Chantry women who have a vested interest in making the Circle seem like a stable place, but one extermination every 60 years is not stable. That was my point.

And as for mage rule, I'm going to say it, so what? Should mages be disinherited because they are mages? What if mages turn out to be reasonable leaders? What if the closest relative turns out to be a madman, or an idiot? Tevinter is the way it is because it is a culture of cruelty and exploitation. Orlais was almost exactly the same, and they align with the White Divine. They had slaves, they had brutish nobles doing whatever they pleased to whomever they liked, and they were not nice people in general. If mages are excluded from a political forum simply for being mages, they will always be prisoners. Without political power to leverage to their own benefit, they will always be mistreated by those who possess it. The only alternative would be a mage nation...which brings up more worrying questions, such as an almost immediate invasion by anti-mage zealots or the emergence of a practice of banishing a nation's mages now that they can live elsewhere. What if a mage wants to remain in Orlais or Ferelden? What if they consider that to be their home? But disinheriting mages and telling them they have, at best, second class citizenship, will create resentful people. You don't want powerful, resentful people.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:17 .


#87
thats1evildude

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

If Connor had access to a trained mage as a tutor, this may not have happened.


In other words, "if Connor had been in the Circle, then Redcliffe would not have happened."

#88
CrimsonZephyr

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thats1evildude wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

If Connor had access to a trained mage as a tutor, this may not have happened.


In other words, "if Connor had been in the Circle, then Redcliffe would not have happened."


Or, if the Circle was a more open institution, Isolde could have approached them without a fear of shaming her family and disinheriting her only son.

#89
MisterJB

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The people of Redcliff would disagree with her assessment than protecting your family's honor and keeping your baby close to you takes precedence over people's lives.

Still, I partially agree. I don't see why parental visits are not allowed in the Circle.

#90
dragonflight288

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With 17 separate Annulments performed before then? That's a separate mage rebellion roughly every 58 years for 1000 years. We don't know how each of them started, but when, somewhere, mages are being exterminated every half a century, it isn't really doing its job. Yeah, you could say that the majority is being protected, but does that really mean the minority deserves to be treated in such a dehumanizing way?


830 years, actually. I've looked up the timeline a bit more thoroughly. Andraste died, and a hundred years later the Chantry rises. The Chantry keeps mages from performing magic beyond lighting candles so mages peacefully rebel and the Divine wants to call an exalted march on her own cathedral. A circle system is appointed.

That circle system didn't rise until 170 years after Andraste's death.

#91
dragonflight288

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Not possible. No one can guarantee that your partner wouldn't be made tranquil anymroe than can guarnatee your partner will NEVER become an abomination.
You might as well ask to be rid of fear of death - it's equally feasable.


At the same time, there's no guarantee that a mundane's partner won't become a serial killer with a knife. Or won't cheat on them from behind their back. There's a risk in everything. If you felt even a single percent of risk is too much, then you may as well die because nothing in life is guaranteed.

There's only three things in life that are truly certain.

1. taxes
2. death
3. and that nothing else is certain.

#92
dragonflight288

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Uumm... given that a mage is hounded by demons, I'd say he is.

Demons for the most part don't even notice regular humans. Mages are like becaons to them. So no, even a Templar stuck in a Fade wouldnt' be at the same danger.

And when mages cast magic, they draw from the Fade. They have at that point a connection.
Theoreticly, a demon could posses them then too, altough it's not as likely.


*facepalm* You are ignoring established lore in favor of Chantry dogma.

Allow me to share the Nature of Spirits with you, as told by the Chantry.

Nature of Spirits

According to the Chantry, the spirits of the Fade are the first children of the Maker. He turned his back on them because they lacked a soul—they could twist the Fade to their liking, but lacked the ability to imagine and create, and thus emulate their creator. The Maker created a new realm, separated from the Fade by the Veil, and this realm would be one that his new children could not alter at will. These new children had the spark of the divine within them, and the Maker was pleased. Supposedly, ever since the Maker created His new children, the spirits from the Fade have watched humanity with curiosity and, in the case of the more malicious spirits, envy and desire.

The malicious ones among the Maker's first children were jealous. They called out to the mortals, drawing their sleeping minds across the veil and saw the land that the Maker had created for them in their dreams. They coveted the spark within them, but did not understand it. They shape the Fade to create the land that they see in the minds of men, and seek to draw the spark from them without truly understanding where it might actually come from.

A spirit cannot comprehend a world that is static and immutable and is not familiar with the concept of time. It cannot comprehend what it means to be within a body of flesh. Some spirits cross the Veil because they desire something they can never have.


They observe the mortal world through our dreams. Now how do they view our dreams? Not just mages here. Because the Fade is a realm of dreams, that all non-dwarves go to. Even non-mage humans, elves, and kossith. They all go there every single night.

The Fade

The study of the Fade is as old as humankind. For so long as men have dreamed, we have walked its twisting paths, sometimes catching a glimpse of the city at its heart. Always as close as our own thoughts, but impossibly separated from our world.

The Tevinter Imperium once spent vast fortunes of gold, lyrium, and human slaves in an effort to map the terrain of the Fade, an ultimately futile endeavor. Although portions of it belong to powerful spirits, all of the Fade is in constant flux. The Imperium succeeded in finding the disparate and ever-shifting realms of a dozen demon lords, as well as cataloging a few hundred types of spirits, before they were forced to abandon the project.

The relationship of dreamers to the Fade is complex. Even when entering the Fade through the use of lyrium, mortals are not able to control or affect it. The spirits who dwell there, however, can, and as the Chantry teaches us, the great flaw of the spirits is that they have neither imagination nor ambition. They create what they see through their sleeping visitors, building elaborate copies of our cities, people, and events, which, like the reflections in a mirror, ultimately lack context or life of their own. Even the most powerful demons merely plagiarize the worst thoughts and fears of mortals, and build their realms with no other ambition than to taste life.

--From Tranquility and the Role of the Fade in Human Culture, by First Enchanter Josephus.


"They create what they see from their sleeping visitors." That doesn't sound like a mage using blood magic or lyrium to enter he Fade. That sounds like me having a dream one night and the spirits and demons found it interesting.

And if you say mages are dogged by demons and are a danger at all times of becoming possesed, to that I say tosh, or poppycock. There's only one kind of mage, one, who is truly in as much danger as the Chantry claims. And those are somniari.

Every other mage MUST use lyrium or blood magic to enter the Fade consciously. A somniari on the other hand, is unique in their ability to enter the fade without either.

And here is the definition of a dreamer, taken from the dragon age wiki.

A dreamer, or somniari in Elvish, is a mage capable of entering the Fade at will, without the aid of lyrium. A talented dreamer can shape the Fade and affect the dreams of sleeping people, killing or driving them mad. However, dreamers attract demons and most prove too frail of mind to survive a demonic possession. As a result dreamers are rare.

The elves of Arlathan were supposedly talented dreamers, and there are stories of ancient Tevinter magisters who were able fend off rivals by haunting or killing them in their dreams. Adralla, the mage who invented the litany, is also known to have found a defense against dreamers


Now taking away a Dreamer from the equation, we have standard mages who absolutely MUST use lyrium or blood magic to enter the Fade. Jowan can send us into the Fade with blood magic. Irving can send us in with lyrium. Neither can do it without either.

Gaider has said that in order to become an abomination, a mage absolutely must do one of two things. Lose a battle of wills with the demon while in the Fade consciously, or make a deal with the demon and let it in. All this, is while they're in the Fade consciously. If they go to sleep, they are in no more danger than a templar who also goes to the Fade to sleep.

And once a demon is outside the Fade, it's a danger to everyone and everything around it. Anything is literally able to get possessed at this point....I kind of want to see what a possessed boulder does. Trees become sylvans, so what would a boulder become?

But I digress.

To make the claim that all mages are dangerous is true. So too is every templar. So too is every wolf with fangs. So too is every bear with its fangs and claws. So too is every human and elf with a sword.

The human grand cleric goes to the Fade every night. The Knight-Commander goes to the Fade every night. And their dreams are viewed by spirits and demons both. Why aren't they in danger of being possessed? Mages aren't in any more danger than they are when they sleep....unless they are a somniari.

To say otherwise is to completely disregard both the lore and what Gaider said. These are the facts. Like it or not, an average mage is no more dangerous than the average templar.

If a mage summons a demon, enters the Fade consciously, or encounters a demon already in the world, they are in danger of becoming an abomination. But never any other time. If a templar is focibly pulled into the Fade by a magic ritual or encounters a demon outside the Fade, they are in just as much danger as the mage is of becoming possessed. But other than those circumstances, neither is in any danger of becoming possessed.

#93
Dave of Canada

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MisterJB wrote...

Still, I partially agree. I don't see why parental visits are not allowed in the Circle.


Finn gets parental visits and Eamon visits his son or daughter, I assume most parents just don't want to see their child out of disgust / fear / hate.

#94
dragonflight288

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Finn gets parental visits and Eamon visits his son or daughter, I assume most parents just don't want to see their child out of disgust / fear / hate.


That or most parents aren't nobles or wealthy and influential individuals.

#95
MisterJB

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Dave of Canada wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Still, I partially agree. I don't see why parental visits are not allowed in the Circle.


Finn gets parental visits and Eamon visits his son or daughter, I assume most parents just don't want to see their child out of disgust / fear / hate.

If Anders is to be believed, the mundane parents of a msge are warned by the templars that if they ask for their child, they will be thrown in prison.
That did seems a little too extreme and unnacessary.

#96
dragonflight288

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If Anders is to be believed, the mundane parents of a msge are warned by the templars that if they ask for their child, they will be thrown in prison.
That did seems a little too extreme and unnacessary.


And given templar zealotry, completely believable.

#97
CrimsonZephyr

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MisterJB wrote...

The people of Redcliff would disagree with her assessment than protecting your family's honor and keeping your baby close to you takes precedence over people's lives.

Still, I partially agree. I don't see why parental visits are not allowed in the Circle.


True, but hindsight is twenty-twenty, and its easy to scoff from a comfortable distance and say, "Well, you should just follow the rules." Connor being taken could have meant an innumerable amount of things: 1.) The loss of an heir; 2.) A loss of prestige for the family; 3.) The chance that neither parent would ever be able to see Connor again; or 4.) The Chantry gaining a hostage, and thus leverage over Redcliffe and the Arl.

It's tragic that people died because of what happened, but the situation is a demonstration of why the legitimate solution should be incentivized. People are selfish. It's the truth, and if you make rules that go against that grain, you'll never get anywhere. If they have a child they adore, they're not going to give them up to an Orwellian organization of religious zealots simply so that a few nameless families can rest easier. When going to someone as brainless and idiotic as Jowan seems like a better option, one must examine their methods long and hard, because clearly there is no incentive for that person, or others like them to follow the demanded course of action.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:09 .


#98
dragonflight288

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They did lose an heir as a mage isn't allowed to inherit a title. And he's their only child.

#99
ShadowLordXII

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How about staying with the Grey Wardens where you can practically do anything as long as you fight darkspawn and protect the world from the blight?

#100
dragonflight288

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How about staying with the Grey Wardens where you can practically do anything as long as you fight darkspawn and protect the world from the blight?


Unless the Chantry decides to plant a templar into the ranks to watch you anyway (Anders short story) Or if the Chantry decides to ignore the crown and the law allowing wardens to conscript anyone (Awakening)